Rocksteady Announce Suicide Squad Game

[shredder orokusaki]

The rumors were saying that it will release on November ... But anyway at least Gotham Knights is coming sooner. Cant wait!

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by Turo602

While I 100% agree with all your points about Mutants in Manhattan, I don't buy the notion that TMNT isn't popular enough to sell millions when all it takes is one critically acclaimed triple A title to get people to suddenly be interested in the property like they were with the Arkham games and even the latest Spider-Man game. No one gave a crap about their games for a long time either until the right people finally decided to invest in them and started moving millions.

TMNT is well known and well liked enough that people who don't normally seek out TMNT would get back in for a game that looks worth their money, especially if all their friends are playing and talking about it.

All video games are expensive to make today and consumers have gotten greedy with what games are worth their money based on longevity, which is why everything is either open-world or free to play today. Double A games are a dying breed unfortunately, but Ninja Turtles is a much safer IP to invest in than an original one, but it's currently in who's hands at the moment? Is it still Activision? It's not like they can't do anything amazing with it, which was also true about Ubisoft, but they're both terrible companies who rather stick to their annual cash cows.

Spider-Man used to be stuck in that situation, and while the games they churned out weren't half bad and sometimes even good, they weren't setting the world on fire because they were still rather mediocre investments to the average player and still mostly played by kids.

It may be wishful thinking to think we'll someday get an "Arkham" caliber TMNT game, and maybe we never will, but crazier sh*t has happened, including the very existence of the Arkham games amongst many other things that were once considered wishful thoughts. Hell, I remember someone on this very forum telling me once that I couldn't have my cake and eat it too for wishing for a Spider-Man game with both an open-world and linear levels, which we got in 2012 so...

I don't think it's impossible, either.

Perhaps it's not a great comparison, but fans of Shen Mue waited almost two decades to get the third installment of the game.

To carry the point of supporting things, then there's always the possibility of rallying enough of us to get a kickstarter or something going.

Is it wishful thinking? Sure. But again, we got Shen Mue. We got Ghostbusters. We're apparently getting a new Battletoads.

It's just figuring out a good time to "strike", so to speak. Would it be more likely to get something going at another peak in popularity? Or would it be easier to negotiate a darker take in between cartoon series?

[Turo602]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I mean, fair point, but I'm working backwards from the idea of two things I know to be facts, those being, "There are WAY more Batman and Spider-Man fans than TMNT fans", and "A lot of TMNT fans don't play video games, or ONLY play TMNT games, and even then only sometimes."

I feel like there's more people in the potential pool for who'd ever play a Batman or Spider-Man game, than for who'd ever play a TMNT game. And I feel like there were a lot of people pre-Arkham who were Batman fans who were like, "I love Batman so much I'd gladly play a GOOD video game based on him, I'm just waiting for that to happen because 'Dark Tomorrow' wasn't good." With TMNT, a ton of the fans don't play video games anyway, even if they turn out good or better, and it's not like every single Batman fan plays video games either, but from the start you're working with an exponentially larger fanbase to begin with. So not all things are equal. Nah'mean?

I mean, I know for a fact that an extra million TMNT fans who don't normally play fighting games, or video games period, didn't all suddenly jump to buy "Injustice 2" just because they were in it. And they SHOULD have, that's the thing. It's a great game, an easy game, and even people with stumps for hands could figure out how to have a good time with it. And I'm sure the TMNT DLC moved the needle a bit but I know I saw a ton of people going "Well, that's awesome, and I love TMNT but I don't play video games/fighting games, soooo..."

That's the kinda thing that leads me to believe that the market of TMNT fans who will ALSO rush to support a video game with them in it, even a good to great one, really just isn't large enough to make much difference. Maaaaybe I'm wrong, sure, but history suggests that I'm right. I kinda doubt that there's all these people who've just never bought a TMNT game because they're waiting for Just The Right One before they dive in. I personally just think the number of people who'd ever buy a TMNT game, period, simply isn't that large to start with.

I mean, even the "good" and most famous ones from back in the era of the Konami games didn't make HUGE money compared to most of their contemporaries. They did good business but they weren't world-beaters. If it didn't happen Then, it's not gonna happen Now, that's how I see it.

While those 2 things may be true, they're not representative of the market a game like this would appeal to. If there's one thing I've learned from being disappointed so many times, it's that the casual market controls what's successful. So right away, fans are out of the equation. We're hardly if ever the target audience because our money alone isn't what's gonna make them profitable.

As for Injustice, I'm pretty sure there's a large overlap of fans already, so it's not like tons of new people were gonna suddenly flock over to the game for a DLC the same way people who never played Batman games did with Arkham Asylum. Just look at us, we both like DC and TMNT, so it's a win/win for us. But if I had absolutely zero interest in a DC fighting game, I sure as hell wouldn't drop money on one just to spend even more money for a DLC. It wouldn't be in my best interest even though I'm a diehard fan, so I can't imagine any casual fans out there thinking this enough to invest their time and money into, just to get a taste of that one thing they used to like but haven't thought about in years because their interests have led them astray. If something was to pull them back in by whatever little nostalgia they have left, it certainly isn't Mutants in Manhattan or a fighting game DLC. It's just not comparable.

While the potential pool of players for characters like Spider-Man and Batman may be larger, that doesn't mean a TMNT game with the right look and buzz wouldn't be extremely successful. Spider-Man is doing better than Batman but that doesn't diminish Batman's success. No one was waiting around for Batman or Spider-Man to have great games either, because once upon a time, even that seemed far fetched, yet Arkham Asylum came as a surprise and MADE people interested, not just fans, even if they were the ones who appreciated it most.

I mean, you'd be very surprised by how many people actually bother to complete these games, which is a lot less than those who don't. That's because most people buy it as a flavor of the week but then just jump back into some Call of Duty or Fortnite. Yet, without those purchases, even Batman and Spider-Man would be a flop. Geek culture is becoming more and more acceptable and those try hards who grew up and left stuff like Ninja Turtles behind because it was for nerds are no longer as cool as they once thought and have softened up and watch Marvel movies, buy funkos, and play the occasional video game they don't finish before popping in a multiplayer shooter or sports game.

So I don't think it really matters whether or not someone who still watches the cartoons or reads the books play video games. It's Ninja Turtles and if it's great, everyone will be talking and buzzing about it, and all the same people who went to see Michael Bay's Ninja Turtles will think the game looks dope, buy it for their Playstation, and never play it because it requires the player to do more than just hold the trigger and won't have any loading screens between matches they lost to give them time to look at their phones. That's the average gamer today and sh*t like Ninja Turtles appeals to them as much as any other superhero because it's all cool now anyway.

And there's definitely more people playing video games today than there were in the 90s, when it was still mostly for kids. Same thing with the Ninja Turtles' fanbase which now spans multiple generations. You have kids, teenagers, adults, and seniors like you. That's a wide demographic. I mean let's be real, this isn't He-Man, it's the f*cking Ninja Turtles. (Okay, sorry. That's the last shot I'll take.)

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Turo602

. Same thing with the Ninja Turtles' fanbase which now spans multiple generations. You have kids, teenagers, adults, and seniors like you. That's a wide demographic. I mean let's be real, this isn't He-Man, it's the f*cking Ninja Turtles. (Okay, sorry. That's the last shot I'll take.)

Woof.

Yeah, I know. This entire planet is somehow full of people who think "Giant lizards who eat pizza and do kung-fu" is a cooler concept than "Star Wars meets Lord of the Rings, and also, the bad guy has a skull for a head."

Must be all that fluoride in the drinking water, because that is NOT acceptable thinking, nor is it even mathematically possible to reach such a conclusion without ingesting many, many crayons and maybe a little Play-Doh. And yet......... people think that way!

The villain... has a SKULL... for a HEAD. I don't know what people don't GET. I'm just glad I'm not them, is all I can say.

"I'm Prince Adam. On today's episode, we learned that people are generally f*cking philistines."

[Sumac]

I think TMNT were included into Injustice 2, just because NRS LOVE to include old school characters in their games. If you look at the guests in Mortal Kombat or even Injustice 2, most of them are relatively niche or washed up icons of the past.

Like, Terminator movies were a joke for the last few installments, RoboCop is dead in the water, same for the Freddy Krueger and Jason. People remember them, but there is nothing to them in the upcoming future. Only reboots and some comic books if they are lucky. TMNT, sadly fit this pattern perfectly.

Arkham games are very easy to get into. I didn't think I like combat system in Asylum, but it was very easy and addictive.

[AquaParade]

Well Leo, you've sort of convinced me to give Mutants in Manhattan another chance. Maybe my expectations were too high to enjoy it, even if they maybe weren't too high in general.

I know you also loved the Injustice 2 dlc, and the stump-hand metaphor is bang on, so you must have good taste in tmnt gaming.

[Leo656]

Eh, I'unno about THAT. I just kind of try and go into things with reasonable expectations because I love being pleasantly surprised. If I expect a lot, I'm almost always let down. If I expect little to nothing, I usually come out ahead. Works for me!

With MiM, I went into it with no real expectations, based on all the "3 out of 10" scores and the fact that the Nick-based games weren't fantastic. I expected nothing and was blown away not by its objective "greatness", but by the fact that it's even good at all because people made it sound like it was worse than "Battle Nexus" or some garbage like that.

...That's another thing on my mind. I recently played "Battle Nexus" again, and holy sh*t, THAT game is a pooch. Like, MiM ain't "Arkham"... but it IS compared to the piece of absolute sh*t that "Battle Nexus" is!

I just love too much about it to care so much about the things it could definitely do better. Love the art style. Controls are smooth, not very deep but at least they're responsive. Love swapping Turtles on the fly to set up combos. Love the frantic pace of the action. Love the Boss fights, especially the Secret Boss Fights. Love the upgrade system and unlockable abilities, which can change the entire strategy of the gameplay. You CAN just mash through the game, but it's more fun if you don't. Love that my CPU partners aren't total nitwits. Love that it takes a decent amount of time to beat it, but not so much time you couldn't do a run-through in a long afternoon if you felt like it. Love how the levels are always the same but the sub-missions IN the missions are somewhat randomized, so it's never the exact same game twice.

Like I've played it for lots and lots of hours and still haven't seen ALL of it because there's a couple Secret Boss Fights I missed and a few Upgrades I didn't buy. I dig that. It makes me feel like I'm not just going through the motions yet again whenever I do pick it up, I'm still working towards something. As far as depth goes, it's easily the deepest game in the series.

I'unno. Objectively, every single thing it does is definitely done much better in other games. But I try and judge it against other TMNT games specifically, and that's a comparison where to me, it rather handily takes the cake.

I feel like the scores, and most people, are taking the game and comparing it to other action/beat-'em-up games, and by that standard, sure, it's pretty average. But if I really want to play a TMNT game, specifically... that's a hard one to beat. Sure, I can just beat "Turtles In Time" for the hundredth time, but it's not as satisfying anymore after almost 30 years. I can beat it in my sleep. MiM makes me work a little harder, and it captures the TMNT "flavor" perfectly.

So yeah, I'll never argue it's a champ, it's "just" pretty good. But sometimes I specifically wanna play a TMNT game and that's altogether one of the best in THAT series. Low bar, I know. It's a fun game for a weekend, that's all I asked for and that's what I got.

[Turo602]

Yeah, high expectations definitely ruined the reception of Mutants in Manhattan. Which to be fair, I blame their false marketing. It really did look like it was setting the wrong expectations since most people's idea of the game couldn't have been further from what the actual game turned out to be. I fell into this trap too, but I knew I'd play it anyway and still manage to get some enjoyment out of it. But I was actually surprised by how well done it was for a half baked game, which is a compliment to Platinum Games' expertise since they really got a lot out of so little.

Their approach to this game was actually pretty ingenious. While it carries the spirit of the arcade games, which is something I don't think people were looking for at the time, they didn't just release a quick straight forward beat 'em up. They developed sandbox levels, which like any other beat 'em up, don't exactly require that much actual level design. It's an open space to fight in before you fight the boss just like the arcade games, except with the benefit of 3D. You are given much more freedom than just left to right and therefore, there's so much more for the player to do to keep them engaged.

But the benefit of a side-scrolling beat 'em up is that there's always a clear path to your destination, unlike an open and directionless sandbox. So they implemented objectives to make up for the lack of any actual level-design and while they could have left it there, they went ahead and made the objectives randomized, exponentially increasing the game's replay value since no two playthroughs will ever be the same.

Unfortunately, even with the sandbox method, Platinum clearly didn't have the time or resources to make many stages, so they reused them. While this can typically be seen as a half-assed and lazy practice, this was also the case for a game like Halo, and like Halo, Platinum managed to recontextualize the reused levels and made them look unique enough to feel new again. Yet another solution to a smaller budget and time restraints.

Combat on the other hand may not be as deep for today's standards, but it's Platinum, so it still feels great and is varied enough in its simplicity to not get as stale as quickly as your average acrade beat 'em up. But where the combat gets really fun is in the game's epic boss fights which for me, is easily the highlight of the game and a total blast in co-op.

I can understand why your average gamer might skip out on this game, but as a TMNT fan, I don't really understand how anyone who still holds onto the arcade games could scoff at this. It's not THE Turtles game but it wasn't trying to be. If you still enjoy the arcade beat 'em ups, Mutants in Manhattan still carries that same exact spirit, except that there's so much more here and it's better. It's objectively the best Ninja Turtles game out now, even with its rushed production and cut corners.

[Leo656]

That's all really well-spoken!

I also felt like some of the earlier levels were a little sparse with enemies, in places. But that wasn't too bad, it makes it easier to get used to the controls and stuff. Although on replays after you already know what you're doing it can be a little bit "meh" and make you wanna just rush to the Boss Fight.

I love the Boss fights, for real. Especially when you can interact with the environment, such as the train and stuff. Like I think half of why I play it as much as I do is because I love playing those levels.

I thought their Transformers game was also really good, and I'm not a big Transformers guy. You can tell the guys put a lot of love and care into these "budget" titles they made, despite their obvious restrictions in developing them. Both games felt like I was playing a cartoon of the characters and I really loved that feeling.

What I generally do if I'm in a "TMNT game" kinda mood, is I'll whip through "Turtles In Time" real quick, and then play "Mutants In Manhattan" for a couple of hours. What's great about it is you can play it for an hour or six hours and either way you felt like you got something done.

I just wish the objectives for triggering the Secret Boss Fights were more clearly understood, because they seem random but I doubt that's the case. And that after you beat them, you could choose to play either the Regular or Secret Boss versions of the levels, to play whenever you want. Those Secret Boss battles are intense! I'd do them every time out if I had the option. Bebop AND Rocksteady? Shredder AND Karai? Bring it on, motherf*ckers!

Like it's a pretty easy game, at least with Upgrades, but I can seriously get into it thanks to that kinda thing. Very engaging.

[AquaParade]

The reasons were justifiably high though, because at the time, Platinum had essentially only released one sub-par game, which was the Airbender game. And that franchise had no history in gaming, nor the popularity of TMNT, so it was fair to think TMNT would get better treatment. Again, it was a match made in heaven.

Mutants in Manhattan re-using their levels is the same as Halo on paper, but it's really not a relevant comparison, because Halo's levels are designed with the brilliant a.i., vehicles, and dynamic gameplay in mind. The level design is on another level of intricacy. Sure, they are both cutting corners by re-using assets, but one of them put a ton of work into those assets in the first place, injecting them with far more replay value. It feels like a case of saying "see, Halo did this too. Not such bad company to be in, right?", but does it really hold any weight? They are in completely different ballparks.
Just my two cents.

Mutants in Manhattan is easy to argue as the best TMNT game, but I'd probably go with Tournament Fighters. Even the classic beat-em-up's ones are pretty darn dull by today's standards, as loveable as they are. And practically everything else has been trash.
I thought their Transformers game was a blast, btw./

[Turo602]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Mutants in Manhattan re-using their levels is the same as Halo on paper, but it's really not a relevant comparison, because Halo's levels are designed with the brilliant a.i., vehicles, and dynamic gameplay in mind. The level design is on another level of intricacy. Sure, they are both cutting corners by re-using assets, but one of them put a ton of work into those assets in the first place, injecting them with far more replay value. It feels like a case of saying "see, Halo did this too. Not such bad company to be in, right?", but does it really hold any weight? They are in completely different ballparks.
Just my two cents.

It's actually very relevant. I'm not saying the quality or intricacies are the same. That's not the point I was making at all. Halo had years of development, Mutants in Manhattan didn't. The choices the developers made is what I'm highlighting, not the level design. They both made the same decisions under pressure, which was recontextualize levels and make them feel new. While Halo had plenty of more time to cook, the campaign itself was actually rushed, which is why they reused so many assets and they did so to great effect.

[AquaParade]

Well, yeah, tons of games re-use assets when they run out of time. I just feel the comparison to Halo is a little misleading, because that games levels had much more time put into their design and were, frankly, better. More intricate, dynamic.

But okay, true that they both fall into the category of games that re-used assets. Can't disagree there.

[Turo602]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Well, yeah, tons of games re-use assets when they run out of time. I just feel the comparison to Halo is a little misleading, because that games levels had much more time put into their design and were, frankly, better. More intricate, dynamic.

But okay, true that they both fall into the category of games that re-used assets. Can't disagree there.

I don't really understand what part of what I said is misleading.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Turo602

I don't really understand what part of what I said is misleading.

I didn't understand what this game had to do with Halo. Other then that they are both part of huge pantheon of games that have re-used assets. I thought it was odd to say "Halo does this too", because Halo seems of such greater quality, that it didn't really seem relevant to the semi-defense you were mounting for the arguably misunderstood "Mutants in Manhattan".

Consider it a misunderstanding if that makes no sense to you.

[Turo602]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

I didn't understand what this game had to do with Halo. Other then that they are both part of huge pantheon of games that have re-used assets. I thought it was odd to say "Halo does this too", because Halo seems of such greater quality, that it didn't really seem relevant to the semi-defense you were mounting for the arguably misunderstood "Mutants in Manhattan".

Consider it a misunderstanding if that makes no sense to you.

I'm just a bit confused because I don't understand what the quality or level design has to do with the exact comparison and point I was making since I never equated the two.

Reusing levels and assets carries negative connotations as it's usually a sign of lazy or rushed development. I used Halo as an example because it is proof that reusing levels doesn't have to mean lazy development. Platinum Games is an amazing developer as is Bungie, and they were in similar predicaments when they both decided to just copy and paste half the game.

The point I was making was that they both did so to great effect. They recontextualized the stages and altered their visual identities enough to make them fresh. Making the best out of a sh*tty situation is the whole point of my post. They got a lot out of so little. A lesser developer wouldn't have done that.

[Leo656]

I think I got the general idea. The games had similarities on Principle but key differences on Points.

With MiM, I gotta say the randomized missions and Boss Fights were enough for me to ignore the reuse of levels. It can be "recycled"; just be fun, that's all I ask.

[Shark_Blade]

Originally Posted by Shark_Blade

It?s early yet. People are complaining over cgi cutscene like they did Avengers game lol.

It?s by the Arkham developer so I have faith they will deliver.



Tonnes of TMNT games were sold from PS2,3 & even PS4 era tbh.

They should?ve made TMNT Arkham Asylum style. Spiderman PS4 did it and it?s successful.

Someone actually made a compilation of TMNT games (PS2-4) last week. How convenient.

This would be fun to look back at.

[Turo602]

The Game Awards as usual sucked, but this was actually really bittersweet. Looks like we're going to be hearing Kevin Conroy's Batman one last time.

I'm also really surprised that they're actually addressing Arkham Knight's ending here. Everyone knows Bruce is Batman and now they definitely know he's not dead. I wonder if they ever had or even currently have plans to move forward with the Arkham series.

[Xav]

Wait this is supposed to take place after Arkham Knight? But Captain Boomerang and King Shark are supposed to be dead. Also Deadshot and King Shark look completely different.

[Turo602]

I always forget Assault on Arkham was ever a thing. Probably no longer canon, but with this game's obvious synergy with the films, I don't understand why they had to tie it to anything at all. But nonetheless, I'm sure it'll make for some great dialog and easter eggs.