Zatanna movie in talks

[Autbot_Benz]

With the Justice League Dark movie may still in limbo, one card carrying (literally) member of the team could be getting her own solo adventure first.

In Deadline's report on the slate of female-led comic book projects on the horizon, the trade mentions that there's "been talk" at Warner Bros. of a Zatanna Zatara movie. No further details are provided, but they do reiterate that plans are still in place for Supergirl and Batgirl standalone films, which will take precedence over new big-screen outings for the likes of Superman and The Flash.

Again, it sounds like this is in the very early stages and may never even see the light of day, but if the studio was interested in exploring the mystical side of the DC Films Universe, this character would be a good entry point.

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/justi...atgirl-a165027

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Autbot_Benz

With the Justice League Dark movie may still in limbo, one card carrying (literally) member of the team could be getting her own solo adventure first.

In Deadline's report on the slate of female-led comic book projects on the horizon, the trade mentions that there's "been talk" at Warner Bros. of a Zatanna Zatara movie. No further details are provided, but they do reiterate that plans are still in place for Supergirl and Batgirl standalone films, which will take precedence over new big-screen outings for the likes of Superman and The Flash.

Again, it sounds like this is in the very early stages and may never even see the light of day, but if the studio was interested in exploring the mystical side of the DC Films Universe, this character would be a good entry point.

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/justi...atgirl-a165027

Well I'll just go ahead and invest my kids' college savings into making this movie happen! No way has DC ever let me down before!

...

Sorry. I'm still sour over Netflix canning everything Defenders-related.

[Autbot_Benz]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Well I'll just go ahead and invest my kids' college savings into making this movie happen! No way has DC ever let me down before!

...

Sorry. I'm still sour over Netflix canning everything Defenders-related.

gotta add it to the list of DC movies that have yet to be made yet

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Autbot_Benz

gotta add it to the list of DC movies that have yet to be made yet

I saw somebody over on CBM make the point that the DCEU has racked up more "in production / let's do it!" movies than the Marvel Cinematic Universe has actually produced. That gives me the giggles, no lie.

[Leo656]

It's true, but here's the thing: It's all your fault.

No, seriously. It's all because they're stuck in a spot where they can't do a single thing "RIGHT". No matter what they announce, or when, the feedback is always the same: Either "That's gonna be terrible" or "That's never gonna happen."

So they listen to that feedback, put a pin in it, wait for a new trend to arrive that they can cash in on, and try again. Same cycle. Maybe if we collectively stopped sh*tting on things literally 5 years before they're even close to existing, they'd have better confidence as a company. As it is, they're sitting there going, "F*ck, what DO these people want?"

They committed early on to an approach that would, essentially, do everything in a different fashion than what Marvel had already done, which is actually fairly smart if you're a business owner looking to create your own identity for your brand, but not if you're a mark. The marks all said, "No, it HAS to be exactly like Marvel, we won't tolerate anything else." So they now have shifted gears to have every future DC movie be an exact clone of the MCU formula, and as I predicted forever ago, they're getting roasted for that, too, despite the fact that they're only doing what you people told them to.

In between, they have shareholders to answer to, so they HAVE to at least have a few ideas on paper about what projects are coming next, so they can start assigning budgets and whatnot. And every time they try and get a plan going, people yell at them for it. SO, they have to do it AGAIN. "Well, we said we'd give them a _____ movie, and they called us assholes, so maybe we need to do something else?"

I can't remember if it was someone I read from Forbes a while ago, or somewhere else, but it wasn't an "entertainment" media source, it was a business source, and he made a point that makes a ton of sense. It was essentially, that in the big question of, "What do people - and the film industry - actually WANT from WB/DC?", the REAL answer is, "To go away completely", because the marketplace can't sustain TWO huge Comic Book Movie Universes with a hundred movies each, and Marvel got there first so fans and critics were already committed and emotionally invested in it. DC/WB are now "trespassing" on their already-claimed territory, so anything they do is going to be treated with suspicion and hostility. One HAS to live and one HAS to die, because the marketplace (and people's limited attention spans and entertainment dollars) can't equally sustain both, and people really like Downey as Iron Man, so DC/WB has become the big clumsy ox that can't get out of its own way, in people's minds.

Once more, the proof of this is how openly hostile we are to even the IDEA of these movies, anymore, before they're anything more than an idea. This whole "We're gonna yell at and punish them until they finally start doing things RIGHT" approach is proven not to work as a motivator. It doesn't work with professional athletes, and it doesn't work when trying to put a huge film project together, regardless of subject matter.

So no, this movie won't happen, and most of their announced projects won't happen. But it's not as simple as, "They're incompetent"; it's that they have an audience that's impossible to please and also actively rooting for them to fail (even subconsciously). They HAVE to announce new film projects because that's their job; being constantly told "We don't want these movies! We don't want ANY of your movies!" is NOT going to help them pull it together any better or faster, it's actually the entire reason things are so screwed up. They WANT to make a plan; you people don't let them.

Moral of the story: Maybe wait until something's more than a few words on paper before publicly and loudly deciding it's terrible. I know that's the exact opposite of how the internet works, but it's really the way people are supposed to act in general. Even I generally wait until I see a trailer for a film before I allow myself to have any opinion at all.

We've all seen things we loved and things we hated from DC long before "Man of Steel" came out, so this is nothing new or DCEU-related, and everybody has an opinion. But let's be real: They're not the audience for these things, they're just making them, and you folks give them NOTHING to work with so that they can get their finger on a pulse. All anyone in the audience offers is, "Copy Marvel" or "Copy childrens' cartoon shows from 25 years ago," which absolutely shouldn't happen either way. A lot of people who have never had a hand in a billion-dollar franchise, sure have very loud opinions on how it should be done, let's put it that way.

So if we're not gonna come clean and say, "Yeah, I just want them to stop making movies," then maybe let's wait for stuff to become reality before deciding it's worthless or whatever. Then, maybe a few of these things MIGHT even get made and released. It's certainly not an approach that's been tried so far.

[Andrew NDB]

F*** this. We should be watching Man of Steel 3 and Batman 2 by now, with movies like this one scattered about here and there.

[Leo656]

If the raging nerds could even agree among themselves what "proper" interpretations of those two characters even are, doubtless we would be. Sadly, "Reeve and Batman: TAS" are all they'll accept, while anything else gets ripped apart for not merely being exactly that. The majority of the caterwauling coming from people who don't even read comic books, no less. Always a fun exercise.

My wife and I are big Zatanna marks, so this movie would be something to see. Alas, it hasn't been a day since it was rumored to maybe possibly be a thing they're talking about doing one day maybe, and the audience snark is strong as ever. So back in the hat this idea goes, never to be spoken of again, like the last few dozen ideas. Nice job, folks. Way to spook the rabbit.

[Autbot_Benz]

Originally Posted by Leo656

My wife and I are big Zatanna marks, so this movie would be something to see. Alas, it hasn't been a day since it was rumored to maybe possibly be a thing they're talking about doing one day maybe, and the audience snark is strong as ever. So back in the hat this idea goes, never to be spoken of again, like the last few dozen ideas. Nice job, folks. Way to spook the rabbit.

I too like Zatanna. I would love to see DC do Etrigan the Demon on the big screen. that would be so cool

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Autbot_Benz

I too like Zatanna. I would love to see DC do Etrigan the Demon on the big screen. that would be so cool

Jesus, I don't think a whole bottle of Cialis could get me that hard.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Spoiler:

It's true, but here's the thing: It's all your fault.

No, seriously. It's all because they're stuck in a spot where they can't do a single thing "RIGHT". No matter what they announce, or when, the feedback is always the same: Either "That's gonna be terrible" or "That's never gonna happen."

So they listen to that feedback, put a pin in it, wait for a new trend to arrive that they can cash in on, and try again. Same cycle. Maybe if we collectively stopped sh*tting on things literally 5 years before they're even close to existing, they'd have better confidence as a company. As it is, they're sitting there going, "F*ck, what DO these people want?"

They committed early on to an approach that would, essentially, do everything in a different fashion than what Marvel had already done, which is actually fairly smart if you're a business owner looking to create your own identity for your brand, but not if you're a mark. The marks all said, "No, it HAS to be exactly like Marvel, we won't tolerate anything else." So they now have shifted gears to have every future DC movie be an exact clone of the MCU formula, and as I predicted forever ago, they're getting roasted for that, too, despite the fact that they're only doing what you people told them to.

In between, they have shareholders to answer to, so they HAVE to at least have a few ideas on paper about what projects are coming next, so they can start assigning budgets and whatnot. And every time they try and get a plan going, people yell at them for it. SO, they have to do it AGAIN. "Well, we said we'd give them a _____ movie, and they called us assholes, so maybe we need to do something else?"

I can't remember if it was someone I read from Forbes a while ago, or somewhere else, but it wasn't an "entertainment" media source, it was a business source, and he made a point that makes a ton of sense. It was essentially, that in the big question of, "What do people - and the film industry - actually WANT from WB/DC?", the REAL answer is, "To go away completely", because the marketplace can't sustain TWO huge Comic Book Movie Universes with a hundred movies each, and Marvel got there first so fans and critics were already committed and emotionally invested in it. DC/WB are now "trespassing" on their already-claimed territory, so anything they do is going to be treated with suspicion and hostility. One HAS to live and one HAS to die, because the marketplace (and people's limited attention spans and entertainment dollars) can't equally sustain both, and people really like Downey as Iron Man, so DC/WB has become the big clumsy ox that can't get out of its own way, in people's minds.

Once more, the proof of this is how openly hostile we are to even the IDEA of these movies, anymore, before they're anything more than an idea. This whole "We're gonna yell at and punish them until they finally start doing things RIGHT" approach is proven not to work as a motivator. It doesn't work with professional athletes, and it doesn't work when trying to put a huge film project together, regardless of subject matter.

So no, this movie won't happen, and most of their announced projects won't happen. But it's not as simple as, "They're incompetent"; it's that they have an audience that's impossible to please and also actively rooting for them to fail (even subconsciously). They HAVE to announce new film projects because that's their job; being constantly told "We don't want these movies! We don't want ANY of your movies!" is NOT going to help them pull it together any better or faster, it's actually the entire reason things are so screwed up. They WANT to make a plan; you people don't let them.

Moral of the story: Maybe wait until something's more than a few words on paper before publicly and loudly deciding it's terrible. I know that's the exact opposite of how the internet works, but it's really the way people are supposed to act in general. Even I generally wait until I see a trailer for a film before I allow myself to have any opinion at all.

We've all seen things we loved and things we hated from DC long before "Man of Steel" came out, so this is nothing new or DCEU-related, and everybody has an opinion. But let's be real: They're not the audience for these things, they're just making them, and you folks give them NOTHING to work with so that they can get their finger on a pulse. All anyone in the audience offers is, "Copy Marvel" or "Copy childrens' cartoon shows from 25 years ago," which absolutely shouldn't happen either way. A lot of people who have never had a hand in a billion-dollar franchise, sure have very loud opinions on how it should be done, let's put it that way.

So if we're not gonna come clean and say, "Yeah, I just want them to stop making movies," then maybe let's wait for stuff to become reality before deciding it's worthless or whatever. Then, maybe a few of these things MIGHT even get made and released. It's certainly not an approach that's been tried so far.

But I don't WANT WB/DC to go away--I want them to have a plan and stick to it. If you a business reacts to every single market dip and rise, they very quickly burn through goodwill and stockholders... and eventually, they have to pull back and recognize "we need a better plan, and we need to STICK TO IT even if the shareholders and competition don't like it for now." Business, at the end of the day, is business. And business needs stability and focus.

Aquaman, Shazam!, Wonder Woman 2, Birds of Prey... I may have issues with their approach to Birds of Prey, but as a whole, looking at that slate, it's gonna happen and it SHOULD happen. It's not how I think it should be done, but they're doing it and have it laid out.

The last time WB/DC concretely rolled out a plan was right around the time of BvS. (And it of course fell by the wayside, given Justice League.)

It looks other branches of the DC On Screen universe are doing much better and more cohesively: their streaming service (although I hate their Titans approach) and their work with CW are both succeeding. But on the big screen, DC is still very much drop-of-a-hat(-or-box-office) reactionary and ADD. THAT'S what a good portion of people hold against them.

...

And then, of course, there ARE the "Superman should smile more!" fans, the "Superman isn't a MURDERER!" fans, and the "MAAAARTHA!" people.

[Leo656]

But they CAN'T stick to a plan, or even create one, because the audience yells at them for EVERYTHING. I already went into all that.

They had a perfectly reasonable plan, and nobody let them finish it because they couldn't understand the planned metaphorical symbolism of the ENTIRE DCEU in the first place: "Darkness" as in, the world in the first few films is devoid of hope and unwittingly being prepared as the crucible for Darkseid's revival, which would give way to the "Light" that is Superman and the Justice League, who rose from the darkness (both literal, and each of their own personal "darkness", as in Character Growth and Development) to eventually save us all in the latter films. The "darkness" or whatever that everyone whined about was a storytelling technique that anyone who's read "Final Crisis" (or ANY New Gods stuff, really) would have understood. At the very least, they should understand that Darkseid can only fully manifest when a world is completely gone to sh*t, and since we all knew from nearly the beginning that Darkseid was the planned reveal, I really don't get how it went over anyone's head. But no. "More colors! More jokes! More smiles!"

They asked everyone, "Please be patient. We're getting there in like, 2 more movies. Please, let us tell our story. A lot of this stuff is symbolism, 'Light conquers Darkness' kinda stuff. Our director is a huge nerd, please indulge him. He's read like ten million comics and is sort of an expert on classical mythology and art and how it relates to and informs pop culture. We just wanna give you something different, but it'll be cool, and once it's done all this stuff is gonna make a lot more sense, and might just surprise you. Just let us finish this one thing."

"NO!" the baby yelled, throwing down its rattle. "More colors NOW! Superman doesn't feel human emotions, he's an all-smiling robot who belongs in a fairy tale," and so on. So they had to shift gears halfway through a story they'd already built everything that was planned to come on top of, and the whole sandcastle collapsed on itself. Your fault, not mine. I wanted to see the whole thing through, because I actually knew and understood where it was going. Halfway through the story, they now HAD no story, and everything is just being yanked from the asses of whoever gets the shot this week to turn it all around.

It's circular logic. "The fans can't support DC/WB, because they've been dissatisfied already and want to see some evidence of long-term planning before they'll commit." Counter-argument: "DC/WB can't do that, because you already made them sh*tcan their entire scripted outline of what was to come, because you're impatient and myopic, and they don't have time to just take a 'Time Out' for 10 years and plan ahead from Square One all over again. And every time they offer you anything, you collectively fart on it out of spite." There's nothing they can "make a plan" on top of, if the feedback they get every single time they get an idea is, "That's gonna suck, don't bother".

They don't even get to swing, they're not even in the box; people heckle them just for picking up the bat. It's annoying.

The plan WAS, "DC's version of Lord of the Rings, starring Darkseid as Sauron and the JLA as the Fellowship." Great plan! Should'a stuck to it!
Here's the thing, though: They didn't f*ck it up, you guys did. "Why isn't everyone HAPPY? Why is everything DARK? Why isn't anyone SMILING?" I'll tell you why: Because the story was about a world without heroes, where a group of Gifted but Flawed people had no choice but to find the hero within themselves, to fight an evil that only they could stop. MoS, BvS, and even Wonder Woman, are all to some degree about people struggling to live up to someone else's heroic ideal of them, and ultimately deciding that even though it's hard, and (as BvS makes very strongly clear) even when it seems like people don't WANT you to be a hero, the right thing to do is STILL The Right Thing To Do, so you Do It, regardless of personal cost. No matter the cost, no matter the struggle, no matter what you've lost, no matter how far you've fallen, you can Rise.
You Be The Hero. "Men Are Still Good."

That was the storyline. That was the plan. WAS. Epic. Poignant. Very steeped in the comics lore. Not enough jokes, though, so "worthless trash", to some. Time to start over. "But what do we do now?" "...Copy Marvel, I guess."

That's as close to a plan as they're gonna have from now on. Deal with it. You have no faith in them, but they have no faith in you, either. So all they can do is grasp at straws. Don't like it? Then let them actually start developing an idea before you tell them it's already a lost cause and they shouldn't bother.

They CAN'T "give the people what they want" if they truly and genuinely don't know. All they're hearing right now is, "We just shouldn't do anything; these people just don't like us." But they have to do stuff.

I'm not saying it's an easy thing to fix. I AM saying, this thing people do with movies (ALL movies) where we decide on Day One, WAY before it's anything more than a rumor, that it's already gonna be terrible?

STOP IT.

That's step one. After that, we can see what happens. Once a trailer hits, all bets are off. Before that, they're just ideas, and ideas need room to grow, and they need water to blossom, not salty piss from know-it-all fanboys.

I agree they're far too (over) reactionary as a company and I can't stand it. But the blame's not all on them. Not even close.
--------------

I disagree that they're firing on all cylinders in their other media ventures, either. There's PLENTY of hate to go around about the CW shows, the Titans show, etc., it's just not as big a deal because movies are "for everyone" and that other stuff is more laser-focused on the target demographic, so the conversation about movies is always going to be a lot louder, as more people are involving themselves. Don't get me wrong, those shows are popular, but the numbers also show that they've each already mostly gone as far as they can go, popularity-wise, and the stuff people don't like about each individual show has only gotten "worse" with time, so it's not like the acclaim is universal. It's just fewer people have an opinion than they do about the films. Three super-hero shows on the same network doing a cross-over isn't a great big sign of universal acclaim, it's just A Thing That Makes Sense To Do.

Regardless, TV and film have nothing to do with each other, really, and I feel this constant need to remind people that something working in one area doesn't mean "Just do it that way!" is an option. People shouldn't even compare the shows to the movies; they're not at all the same, nor should they be. Movies based on TV shows are terrible, and TV shows based on movies are terrible. A character can be represented well in each, but that doesn't mean they can be executed the same, and people shouldn't say "Well lookit Dose Guys! Dat's how ya do it!". To quote a certain speedster, "THAT feels like an oversimplification."

Anyway, yeah, they're doing alright, but not across the board. Many people are now aware how terrible Supergirl is, for example. But hey, if nothing else, that means there's hope!

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

If the raging nerds could even agree among themselves what "proper" interpretations of those two characters even are, doubtless we would be. Sadly, "Reeve and Batman: TAS" are all they'll accept, while anything else gets ripped apart for not merely being exactly that. The majority of the caterwauling coming from people who don't even read comic books, no less. Always a fun exercise.

My wife and I are big Zatanna marks, so this movie would be something to see. Alas, it hasn't been a day since it was rumored to maybe possibly be a thing they're talking about doing one day maybe, and the audience snark is strong as ever. So back in the hat this idea goes, never to be spoken of again, like the last few dozen ideas. Nice job, folks. Way to spook the rabbit.

It's not about the nerds, it's about WB kowtowing to them.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

It's not about the nerds, it's about WB kowtowing to them.

Exactly.

Warner Brothers is a big boy on the block; they don't HAVE to switch lanes every fvcking movie. It'd be smarter to introduce more gradual course corrections, or have the balls to simply have an executive say "Yeah, you know what? We thought a lot more people would like Batman V Superman. It sucked, and that's on us. We promise you've been heard, and we promise that Justice League will make up for it. Trust us a little longer, okay?"

And then go with their plan. Tweak it, don't trash it.

[drgon78]

I actually do like Batman v Superman except for the whole "Martha" thing.

[Andrew NDB]

BvS would have been great if this was like, movie #7. They're throwing "The Dark Knight Returns" and "The Death of Superman" at us simultaneously and this is like the 2nd movie.

[Leo656]

There's an entire book's worth of Real World Reasons why they had to do things exactly the way they did with BvS, though. People aren't exactly looking at the big picture.

There's only TWO Superman movies that WB has ever wanted to make since 1994: "Death Of", and "Vs. Batman". They were obsessed. Since then, we were absolutely going to get one or the other as the next Superman movie. They occasionally flirted with other ideas, but to them, the "money" was in killing him and resurrecting him (usually in the SAME MOVIE, so if you dislike what we actually got, count your blessings), OR, contriving some reason for him to fight Batman.

All the scripts were terrible, but the idea wasn't going away, because they'd spent a fortune developing BOTH of those ideas simultaneously. When "Superman Returns" under-performed, WB was only further convinced that they HAD to do one, the other, or somehow both of their earlier ideas. When MoS did well, but NOT as well as they would have wanted, and they were already talking about growing a new universe out of it anyway, it seemed like a golden opportunity to finally, once and for all, get BOTH of those ideas into a movie. Until they did, they were NEVER going to fully commit to anything else.

So, to those who say, "They shouldn't have done X," there's a million reasons why they had no choice, and what we actually got was MUCH better than anything they'd put on paper previously for either of those ideas. I, personally, have zero problem with Superman and Batman's initial relationship being hostile and misunderstood - because there's comic book precedent for it - or for Superman's death at Doomsday's hands being the thing that finally lets a distrusting world see him as the hero he was trying to be all along, because that's inspiring. I'm not convinced that you really do need 20 movies of middling and meandering stories before getting to "the good stuff", and it was always going to happen like this one way or the other. What we got was as good as it could ever have been. For me, it's fine. I don't think it was "too early" at all. But again, I'm used to the comics throwing a ton of storyline at me all at once, some of it to be finished Right Now and some of it to be resolved Elsewhere Later On, so in a movie based on the same material, it's merely what I expect.

I know a lot of people hate the movie for "ruining" the Dark Knight Returns storyline, "So they can't actually do a whole movie of it now," but the thing is... that is not a good story and doesn't need its own movie. Taking the visuals and only the loosest inspiration from DKR is exactly what they should have done. Controversial, I know, but Frank Miller is awful at Batman and his dick's been stroked enough over that one mediocre story.

CKD: I'm gonna go ahead and out you as a front-runner, because you were a pretty big fan of BvS until other people convinced you otherwise. Not as much as I am, but you definitely never said "it sucked". You merely didn't buy Batman's motivation for being such a grouch and never cared for Eisenberg. Aside from that, we always agreed on quite a lot about it.

Because it didn't suck, some people just didn't like it. Big difference. I wouldn't expect WB to apologize for something that more people recognize each year was actually better that they wanted to give it credit for at the time. Hindsight is like that. But if anything, they need to apologize for giving Justice League to Whedon, and not at the very least sticking to the original script that had mostly been filmed. Instead, they Superman II'ed it. THAT, I want an apology for. Not BvS, which was fine even if it wasn't "funny" enough for some people. The advertising for "Justice League" promised us one person's film - Snyder's - and gave us a totally different film - Whedon's. That's something they could have been sued for, once upon a time.

Anyway, again, people keep saying "They needed to do ____" and not realizing that the fans being impossible to please is the real crux of the problem. You all hate everything they do, or say they're going to do, so how are they supposed to know what comes next? Seriously. Put the last few movies aside and focus on Right Now: Right NOW, you sh*t on everything, so what are they supposed to do? That's right, keep throwing sh*t at the wall. It's all they CAN do, since you won't meet them halfway anymore.

When they HAD a plan, you all bitched before you even saw it halfway through. So don't cry about it now that they don't have one. Hopefully Aquaman does well. Maybe then they'll get some more confidence, and after that, traction. It's all we can hope for.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

CKD: I'm gonna go ahead and out you as a front-runner, because you were a pretty big fan of BvS until other people convinced you otherwise. Not as much as I am, but you definitely never said "it sucked". You merely didn't buy Batman's motivation for being such a grouch and never cared for Eisenberg. Aside from that, we always agreed on quite a lot about it.

Critical opinions did influence me, I'll admit it, but seeing it a second time was a problem, too. Like Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them. Loved it the first time... rewatched it this week, and realized "Oof. The only reason this movie made money was Kowalski."

I'm sometimes oblivious of things the first watching; like Suicide Squad? Liked it less each time I watched it three times in theaters, and am now at a point of "I like this part and this part and Margot Robbie is amazing, but overall, kinduva $hit sandwich." Jared Leto doesn't bother me, though.

My opinion of Batman V Superman has solidified at:

• The Martha thing isn't supposed to be dumb, but it comes out dumb
• Batman should NOT be trying to literally murder Superman
• The overall plan doesn't really work, but you can go with it. Not unlike The Dark Knight, honestly.
• And, of course, Jesse Eisenberg is still terrible as Lex Luthor

That's it. I'll rewatch it and enjoy most of it. But I sympathize a lot more than I used to with people who hate it. It should have been better, it wasn't as bad as haters say, and Zach Snyder's vision for Justice League would've been way better. Snyder was never the problem; Warner Brothers was and is.

[Leo656]

- Anything is dumb is you refuse to play along; I personally find it poignant.

- I disagree; he's lost his nut. He's afraid of the future, long since abandoned "heroism", and thinks Superman is no different from Zod. Plus, he was being manipulated the whole time. This is one of those, "Let them tell you the story, stop trying to tell them what the story should be" kind of things. It's fine. It's not like him coming back from the brink of darkness to rediscover who he was through Superman's heroic ideal was his ENTIRE arc in the movie, or anything.

- Which part? Kinda confused what you mean, but then, I've seen this movie a bunch and most of the "holes" people try and point out really aren't there, so... I'unno, extrapolate.

- Your opinion (which many share, I acknowledge). I wouldn't have cast him, but I think he's fine. He's definitely the only "Truly Evil" Lex we've had in live action. The rest were all goofballs or whiny Daddy's Boys, so he's still ahead on points, high-pitched vocal register or no.
-------------

Ultimately, these are all very small things within the context of a three-hour film. Truly can't say any of it bothered me then, and definitely not now. My only true problem with BvS, dead serious, is that it set up a bunch of stuff we're never getting a payoff to. THAT, to me, is a problem.

We're in agreement on WB's meddling being the root problem, though. Though as I've said, I empathize with their position. To a point. We, as fans, make their jobs incredibly difficult sometimes. Were I in their position, I doubt I'd know how to proceed, either. But then, I really liked their original plan and wanted to see it through. *I* wasn't the one who told them to do a 180 in the first place, because I knew it would lead to anarchy. So now that there IS anarchy, I find it funny that people are mad at them for not having a plan or sticking to it.

It's easy to say, "WB should just ignore the message boards", but that's impossible, and the feedback they're getting on what's good and what's crap, what they should do and not do, is totally schizophrenic.

Like, Zatanna would be a good movie. The fact that even just the idea being floated out there gets a ton of scorn, means that they really just have to keep taking blind swings and hoping someone finally likes something. Not a good way to do business, no. but... well, they had all their eggs in a basket that someone else smacked out of their hands, and now it's a mess.

But on our end, reacting to every DC Movie announcement with "That's stupid" isn't gonna help anything, either. It's really only gonna make everything worse.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

- Anything is dumb is you refuse to play along; I personally find it poignant.

- I disagree; he's lost his nut. He's afraid of the future, long since abandoned "heroism", and thinks Superman is no different from Zod. Plus, he was being manipulated the whole time. This is one of those, "Let them tell you the story, stop trying to tell them what the story should be" kind of things. It's fine. It's not like him coming back from the brink of darkness to rediscover who he was through Superman's heroic ideal was his ENTIRE arc in the movie, or anything.

- Which part? Kinda confused what you mean, but then, I've seen this movie a bunch and most of the "holes" people try and point out really aren't there, so... I'unno, extrapolate.

- Your opinion (which many share, I acknowledge). I wouldn't have cast him, but I think he's fine. He's definitely the only "Truly Evil" Lex we've had in live action. The rest were all goofballs or whiny Daddy's Boys, so he's still ahead on points, high-pitched vocal register or no.
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Ultimately, these are all very small things within the context of a three-hour film. Truly can't say any of it bothered me then, and definitely not now. My only true problem with BvS, dead serious, is that it set up a bunch of stuff we're never getting a payoff to. THAT, to me, is a problem.

We're in agreement on WB's meddling being the root problem, though. Though as I've said, I empathize with their position. To a point. We, as fans, make their jobs incredibly difficult sometimes. Were I in their position, I doubt I'd know how to proceed, either. But then, I really liked their original plan and wanted to see it through. *I* wasn't the one who told them to do a 180 in the first place, because I knew it would lead to anarchy. So now that there IS anarchy, I find it funny that people are mad at them for not having a plan or sticking to it.

It's easy to say, "WB should just ignore the message boards", but that's impossible, and the feedback they're getting on what's good and what's crap, what they should do and not do, is totally schizophrenic.

Like, Zatanna would be a good movie. The fact that even just the idea being floated out there gets a ton of scorn, means that they really just have to keep taking blind swings and hoping someone finally likes something. Not a good way to do business, no. but... well, they had all their eggs in a basket that someone else smacked out of their hands, and now it's a mess.

But on our end, reacting to every DC Movie announcement with "That's stupid" isn't gonna help anything, either. It's really only gonna make everything worse.

I can't unsee the memes. The scene is ruined for me.

I still don't agree with "killer Batman", and it's still my biggest issue. Well, aside from Eisenberg. Although I'll admit he has his moments... but most of the time, I hate him as much as I hate ... crap, Ezra Miller as the Flash. Forgot his name for a second.

Basically, the entire plan. Everything proceeds exactly as it should for Lex. Although you've told me the Ultimate Edition improves that stuff, I still haven't seen it.

* * *

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'll stop rolling my eyes every time WB announces the idea of a new film once they start following through more. Talk about a slate, or explicitly announce "Wonder Woman, Harley Quinn, Green Lantern, Aquaman, Batman, and Gorilla Grodd are all priority characters for us. We're not saying you'll never see Superman or Cyborg again, but right now, we just want to focus on Gorilla Grodd."

Basically, I'm saying they need to massively improve their marketing strategy. Do fewer things, better.

[Leo656]

Well if you haven't seen the full movie, then you haven't seen the movie. So, that explains that part. But yeah, gaps are filled.

As for Batman, you've said you've read "A lonely Place of Dying". So, I'd wager, has Zack Snyder. Now, imagine the beginning chapters of that story, and imagine that Tim Drake never showed up to "rescue" Batman from his post-Jason downward spiral in this universe, and you have the Batman of BvS. That's exactly what it is. Not hard at all to buy into if you remember which books they pulled material from.

Again, some people keep forgetting that Batman's role in this film was "secondary antagonist" rather than "hero". Batman fans, especially, have a hard time with him ever being the "villain" of anything, but he was specifically presented as the tragic villain here. That was the point. He had to start off in a bad place so he could end the movie in a Good Place. That was his entire arc. "Lost hope - found hope - redemption." You can't have redemption if there's nothing to be redeemed for.
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"Do fewer things better" was their plan. They'd only announced so far as "Two-Part Justice League", with Batman, Superman, and Flash movies all likely to follow. When people puked on their plan - again, not a huge list of which was announced, just a few films - THAT's when "Let's just try everything and hope we get lucky!" started.

They're not going backwards now. They can't. People either need to accept their role in not letting them finish their original, Perfectly Good Plan before it was even halfway done, "Because the Blues aren't Blue enough, nobody laughs enough", or let them figure it out without constant mockery and scorn. Of course they're only going to lean into stuff like Harley Quinn, because that's one of the few things they've done that everyone liked. Of course they're gonna follow trends like "All-Women Super-Teams", because that's the hot fad right now in the current cultural and political climate, and they want to appear relevant vs. reactionary. Of course, to us it's BLATANTLY reactionary, but remember, they're not the ones with their fingers on the pulse, they just follow the market and do what "fans", with their dollars, tell them they should do.

Once more, people can get back to me when they've successfully managed a billion-dollar film franchise. Until then, it's all just circle-jerking. I'm quite pissed at DC/WB myself, for a lot of reasons, but I'M not the reason they're in this boat to begin with. I wasn't the idiot who told them to hire the Buffy guy, and green-screen over a movie that was already in the can, so that we could learn Superman's trip back from the Great Beyond was "Itchy".

Should'a left well enough alone when there WAS a consistent vision, even if it was divisive. Now there's NO vision, and we're all f*cked, together. Yaaaaaay. Again, not my fault. I voted for Kodos.