Tmnt vs batman - who wins?

[Yabuturtle]

It's kinda tough to decide. The turtles struggle enough with Shredder who's considered to be an amazing a martial artists, but Batman is considered to be one of the best martial artists plus had numerous gadgets. I don't think the Turtles would be push overs to Batman as they are considered to be amazing, too, but I'd say Batman wins this due to his experience, cunning, intellect, gadgets and so forth. If Splinter joined in he might give Batman some more trouble but if it's just those 4 turtles I'd say Batman wins. Now just because Batman defeated many ninjas before doesn't mean this would be a cake walk to him here. It's quality, not quantity, as some versions of the Turtles are considered to be world's above many martial artists. Batman has taken down super powered beings, however that also doesn't mean he'd defeat any non powered superhuman. He can take down Clayface, but had a very difficult time against Ra's al Ghul. Beating numerous opponents or super powered beings, doesn't mean you can take down anyone. Really if one wishes to be technical, almost all fights can go either way, depending on what they use, their environment, if one can exploit each others weaknesses, ect. so I can see Batman losing but also winning depending on the situation. Unless the Turtles were going to fight against a godlike entity like Galactus or something, they'd totally lose, unless they had something like the Infinity Gauntlet or something like that.

But I would also like it if they teamed up and take down some villains.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

They've rarely been displayed having Superhuman Strenght, Peak Human Strenght is more accurate. And it's been shown that besides a certain movie, the shell don't give that much protection, it's not Kevlar, it's just bones and scutes, and as an add on. turtles do have nerves in the shell and do feel through it, like pain for example.

There are three conditions Batman will win on.

1. Writers hard-on for Batman: Batman in modern comics will always win cause current writers don't know any better.

2. Ninjas Rule no 3. Ninjas in numbers are useless and canon fodder, Batman being a lone Ninja will automatically win cause his power level exceeds the number of Ninjas he'll be fighting. Basic Ninjas fiction logic.

3. Batman is simply more skilled, he knows more martial arts, and is highly skilled in the arts of stealth and misdirection, something the TMNT often usually lack. The Turtles are good, but not that good. Plus, Batman got fancier toys that wasn't crudely fashioned in a sewer.

By all means, it would have been a spectacular fight, but Batman goes on top, with no casualties because Batman is a professional Superhero.

No superhuman strength? Let's review here- OT, they demonstrated on SEVERAL occasions that they were stronger than ANY human- knocking over brick walls onto Foot-bots, Mikey picking up a huge chunk of CONCRETE and swinging it like a bola at Krang in that military walker he was in, throwing, slamming and otherwise using oil drums, big tires, and other VERY HEAVY objects like they were nothing, pushing the future turtle van UP STAIRS! And the list goes on. Nick- Traag, as previously noted, pushing the TRAIN CAR to the lair to use as a vehicle (sorry, four NORMAL HUMANS can't do that, no matter how strong!) and more.

Their shells have been demonstrated to take FAR more abuse than any human could withstand, both in the movies (remember when Norinaga hit Leo with the sword? Barely any damage, much LESS serious harm!) and in the cartoons and even comics (Donnie's recent attack aside). They also have abilities Bats doesn't, such as pulling their heads in during a fight (Mikey and Leo both did this in the original films, and they've all done it in the comics and cartoons). Good luck with getting in a head-shot, Bruce! Or doing much more than annoying them when trying to attack from behind.

Sure, why not? Because Batman apparently can't be beat by ANYONE. GIVE. ME. A. BREAK. He's NOT invincible and all-knowing.

Originally Posted by Splinter the boss

I know there is a line between superhuman strength and peak human strength. However, Shredder, one of the most powerful humans in the tmnt universe, couldn't possibly knock down traag. So I say they do have superhuman strength, even though their strength might not be up there with others like superman. After all their strength are above human strength.

Exactly. They are probably on par with Wolvie or Beast, who both are a tier above human peack-level, but are still well below guys like Spidey, Thor, Hulk, and the like. Physically, Bats is a wimp compared to that. No offense to Batman fans, it's just pure physical prowess comparison.

Originally Posted by Slade

Which one????

I don't dislike him either and I also can't stand the Batgod perception people have. But Bats doesn't have the same limitations as ANY human. Not everyone is as trained as he is. He'd take the turtles. By himself. Shredder's done it on a few occasions and he isn't as skilled as Bruce.

By limitations, I was talking about the PEAK of human ability- Bats may have that, but they can still go him one better in that department.

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

This. Donnie might be pretty smart, Even genius intellect since in several incarnations he've built or helped making some snazzy gadgets and vehicles. But that's it, he's in no way near what Batman have done with the resources a Wayne can use.

Bruce Wayne is a Polymath:
He has studied Biology, Technology, Mathematics, Physics, Mythology, Geography and History.

Gained degrees in Criminal Science, Forensic Sciences, Computer Sciences, Chemistry and Engineering by the time he was 21.

He has mastered Diverse Environmental Training, Security Systems, and illusion/sleight of hand by the time he was 23.

He gained even more degrees in Biology, Physics, Advanced Chemistry, and Technology by the time he was 25.

He had learned Forensic Sciences, Medical Sciences, Expanded Computer and Engineering Sciences, and Expanded Device Pool use of personal powered armor and system, database creation on underworld crime bosses, rogue's gallery foes and other supervillains; improved material sciences for body armor and micro-machinery by the time he was 26.

Has also learned Advanced New Development in Forensic and Medical Sciences.

And for combat, he's the best escapist artist second only to Mister Miracle, and have the pinnacle of Peak Human Condition, as he regularly lifts 1000 lbs, can catch Green Arrow's arrows mid-flight, dodge point blank gunfire, and are on the level with a Olympic Gold Winner gymnastic.

He also have Photographic Memory and easily adapts his fighting style to accommodate his opponent. And almost on par with Green Arrow as a marksman.

But, sure in a fight anything can happen. But the upper hand is in Batman's corner, big time.

Here's the thing, according to the skills they are given in the TMNT RPG book (and this is mostly canon, IIRC), Donnie has most of those same knowledge and skills, as well. Leo and Mikey, have several of them too, to a lesser degree, with a little overlap, but all with their own specialties. Bats has tried to specialize in TOO MANY areas, and there only being 24 hours in a day (and he has to eat, sleep and bathe/sh*t sometime) he just CANNOT do ALL that and not end up burning himself out physically (and probably mentally, too). He's neither OLD enough to do that, nor did he start training from "birth" or when he started walking/talking like they did. (Even assuming he's in his thirties, which is also when the brain's learning capacity begins to seriously slow and physical improvement begins to decline....) Essentially, he might have more fields of expertise than Donnie- but due to the very nature of such study- which is VERY time consuming even WITH photographic or eidactic memory (something people tend to forget) he would never be able to master something as well as someone who has chosen to specialize in fewer fields and thus has more time to spend learning them. Also, we've seen evidence that Donnie (and Mikey, apparently, by how easily he picks up certain skills) is capable of learning new things almost effortlessly, which indicates a possible photographic memory as well. (It's never been specifically stated, but he must be able to if he can remember some obscure fact he read years ago and apply it during a battle!)

[SixthTurtle]

I think that it's pretty silly to say that Batman wins because he can beat generic ninjas. So can the turtles. That's like saying they can beat Batman because they've beaten villains who use technology.

Also can we not forget that sometimes the Batman's enemies get the upper hand on him and most of them are human or slightly mutated. Joker is human, Catwoman is human, Two-Face is human, Riddler is human, Mad Hater is human, Scarecrow is human... need I go on?

[PangolinFeets]

Skill-wise, the fight is fairly even, I think. Four highly-trained ninjas over one master fighter. But Batman is cunning and the turtles don't play dirty. Batman would recognize that they care more about each others' lives than taking him out. He'd just take one hostage and threaten to kill them until they surrender.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

No, sorry, but even Bats wouldn't play THAT dirty. And depending on the version of turtles, they might be willing to play that game too. Ninjas DO play dirty, almost by definition. Honorable they might be, but NOT stupid or foolishly "goody-two-shoes", any more than Daredevil is. In fact, if he's really as observant as he's made out to be, he's recognize their loyalty to and concern for each other as something that marks them as potential allies rather than enemies! I think that might make him LESS inclined to fight, actually. And he doesn't have their well-honed teamwork on his side, either.

I just get so tired of seeing Bats being so overrated by virtually everyone, even non-fans. It's like those Hulk vs. (fill in the blank) threads they used to have at Marvel. Hulk fans always insisted that he'd beat EVERYONE, even though there was evidence to the contrary. (Like Spidey already knowing exactly how to beat him, or others demonstrating the ability to outlast or outwit him into changing back.)

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

C'mon. Batman. Even Mirage Shredder who from age 8 or whatever was raised and forced himself to master ninjitsu to one day avenge Nagi... he had like one, two, three masters ever, tops. Batman traveled the globe learning from everybody to make his whole city straight, multiple martial arts and pretty much everything, and didn't settle until he was a master of it all. That's his thing.



Whatever Donnie has read in sewer books or the internet, Batman has taken courses in paid by his multi-billion dollar trust fund and probably even spoken in college classes. No, sorry, can't give even that one. You're talking about the guy who built Brother Eye.

The one edge the (Mirage) Turtles have is that they're willing to kill and Batman is not. But they'd never even get the chance to do anything with that edge.

You're right. I withdraw that statement. When I made it, I had Fred Wolf "Can somehow build anything out of anything, even garbage"" hyper-intelligent Donnie in my mind for some reason, but f*** that guy. You're right, it's nonsense. Batman easily. I apologize sincerely, that was one of the dumbest mistakes I've made in like ever.
----------

Here's the thing guys: Batman's beaten up the League of Shadows/Assassins, which in DC canon are THE most dangerous guys on Earth. I'm not sure where the Foot ranks on their Earth, but I've never heard them referred to as THE guys. AMONG the best, maybe. But I don't think either Saki or Yoshi were ever THE best in the world, thus, none of their pupils likely would be, either. Sp, sure, the Turtles can handle the Foot clan, but Batman's taken on the League, ten at a time, by himself, and won. I don't care how over-powered some writers make him; if we're going by canon, canon says Batman Wins. And if we're going by anything other than canon, then it's pointless, just Dueling Fanfic Scenarios.

Batman has the edge in every single category. He's probably lighter and absolutely more agile, he's possibly stronger, he's definitely more experienced and infinitely more brutal. I don't care about shells or plastrons; Batman breaks bones, he dislocates extremities, he cracks skulls open, and he does it to guys a lot less dangerous to him than the Turtles would be, half the time for fun. The Turtles almost always go into every fight already expecting to win, and half the times that gets them their ass handed back. In Every Canon. Batman, meanwhile, takes everything seriously, and the second he thought the guys might actually be a threat, he'd turn it up to 11 and finish the fight before they knew what was happening.

The Turtles fight like it's half a game. Batman fights because it's War. Batman wins.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Redeemer

Pretty sure Batman dropped out of college

Nope. He even went to the CIA for a minute until he decided he wasn't making a big enough difference (Shadow of the Bat #0 I believe, could be wrong).

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

No, sorry, but even Bats wouldn't play THAT dirty.

How naive. The guy routinely throws unarmed guys face-first through plate glass windows, or headfirst into brick walls, and half the time they've barely even done anything. Batman needs no reason to be a colossal douche about beating people up. That's just his Default.

It has nothing to do with him being written as "over-powered" AT ALL. The character's canon has simply shown that he's faced and beaten far greater odds than anything the TMNT can throw at him. And if we're not going to go by canon then the entire debate is totally pointless.

Believe me, I get it. When I was 5, after Hulk Hogan slammed Andre the Giant I was convinced he could have beaten up Bruce Lee. We all get super-into stuff and say silly things that don't make any sense. But the Ninja Turtles can't beat up Batman, I'm sorry. Nor can Batman beat up Superman. People get silly about all kinds of stuff. It happens.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Leo656

How naive. The guy routinely throws unarmed guys face-first through plate glass windows, or headfirst into brick walls, and half the time they've barely even done anything. Batman needs no reason to be a colossal douche about beating people up. That's just his Default.

It has nothing to do with him being written as "over-powered" AT ALL. The character's canon has simply shown that he's faced and beaten far greater odds than anything the TMNT can throw at him. And if we're not going to go by canon then the entire debate is totally pointless.

Believe me, I get it. When I was 5, after Hulk Hogan slammed Andre the Giant I was convinced he could have beaten up Bruce Lee. We all get super-into stuff and say silly things that don't make any sense. But the Ninja Turtles can't beat up Batman, I'm sorry. Nor can Batman beat up Superman. People get silly about all kinds of stuff. It happens.

I'm not even saying they'd "beat him up" because honestly, I don't think they'd ever go that route, but to be honest, while I'm aware that Bats has killed on occasion, I doubt he'd consider them as dangerous enemies. More likely he'd go into it thinking they are "bad guys", but soon realize he had them pegged wrong, and the fight would end. I don't think they's kill him or even beat the living sh*t out of him, just that he wouldn't "win". there's a difference.

And I'd like to point out Splinter's words in the 90 movie about Yoshi being "one of Japan's finest shadow warriors. His only rival was a man named Oroku Saki". So yes, in their world(s), the Foot ARE the "best" in the world- they were trained by the man who killed Yoshi who was clearly one of the two best. And Splinter being his "student" (albeit that he probably didn't even realize he was teaching the rat, or if Splinter IS Yoshi, then it's even more evident he's the "best") makes them more obviously the "best" in their world. And again, there's the Battle Nexus and all those space stories where they were up against aliens from all across the multiverse!

Another thing I'd like to point out is the age factor. What age of the turtles are we talking about? Mirage later volumes in their thirties, or the early history teen years? Because that would certainly make a difference in both training and experience level. Meanwhile, Bats would have aged and would probably be old enough that he's lose much of his supposed "edge" over them. And even the fact of them being obviously teenagers would probably tip him off that they aren't actually even a threat. Why does this not get taken into account?

[PangolinFeets]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

No, sorry, but even Bats wouldn't play THAT dirty. And depending on the version of turtles, they might be willing to play that game too. Ninjas DO play dirty, almost by definition. Honorable they might be, but NOT stupid or foolishly "goody-two-shoes", any more than Daredevil is. In fact, if he's really as observant as he's made out to be, he's recognize their loyalty to and concern for each other as something that marks them as potential allies rather than enemies! I think that might make him LESS inclined to fight, actually. And he doesn't have their well-honed teamwork on his side, either.

I just get so tired of seeing Bats being so overrated by virtually everyone, even non-fans. It's like those Hulk vs. (fill in the blank) threads they used to have at Marvel. Hulk fans always insisted that he'd beat EVERYONE, even though there was evidence to the contrary. (Like Spidey already knowing exactly how to beat him, or others demonstrating the ability to outlast or outwit him into changing back.)

Ok, but we're going into this saying there's gonna be a fight and who would win. Obviously, if they didn't have to fight, being intelligent on both sides, they would probably drop whatever issue there was and work together.

And yes, Bats does play that dirty. I mean, his contingency plans for the Justice League are pretty twisted. He knows he's not the most powerful, so he has really dark and manipulative ways to win fights he knows he couldn't win head-on.

[Leo656]

I discount the Battle Nexus because anyone objective knows both Batman and Brock Lesnar would have been involved if not for licensing issues. It was exclusionary by design. Now, if it came down to Batman vs. Brock Lesnar... well, now you've got yourself something people would pay to see.

I wasn't talking about Batman even looking to use lethal force either, I was simply saying, he always goes into every fight taking things a lot more seriously then the Turtles do. More than likely, they'd go into the fight taking it lightly because they have the numbers. They make that mistake A LOT. Batman is THE BEST, at taking advantage of that specific mistake. It's kind of his entire strategy - "Take out large groups of skilled opponents by lulling them into a false sense of security based on having more people on their side, then jump in and start snapping stuff." By the time the guys started taking it seriously, at least one of them would already be on the ground.

If it came down to it, if it was about to go "too far", Batman would be quicker to do permanent damage. He has a killer instinct that even Raphael doesn't have. Like PF said, if we're looking at it as a fight with a winner, not as "Super-Hero Team-Up Act 2 Misunderstanding", then Batman would go for the throat first.

If it's "Teen Turtles", Batman still breaks their kneecaps if he has to. Batman has fewer f*cks than Honey Badger. If he thinks you're dangerous, he hits you really goddamn hard. He dresses teenage orphans up like birds and throws them at guys with guns; Batman will gladly throw a teenager with a fancy broomstick into a brick wall. And if it's Old Batman vs. Experienced Turtles, by then Batman's cheating by wearing armor and using tons of asphyxiating/blinding chemicals and rubber bullets and sh*t. That's even less fair.

Batman's An Asshole, and Batman Always Cheats. That's why he always wins.

Don't get me wrong, it's a fight I'd like to see. I actually started writing something like it, once, but then I got distracted and never finished it.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I wasn't saying there wouldn't BE a fight; if Leo got anything right, it was Raph rushing in head-first, and the others being drawn in because of that, if nothing else. Most likely, the fight would end in a draw once both sides realized they were on the "same side" as it were. I didn't say there wouldn't BE a fight, just that Bats probably wouldn't really WIN it. Either he'd realize he's fighting a bunch of kids who got in over their heads (in a situation they were in by mischance), or they'd incapacitate him long enough to talk things out. That's how I see it going. No "he'd kill/maim/etc. them" or even "they'd beat him to a pulp". Just a "hey, why the heck were we fighting, again?" situation, where everyone stops and apologizes or makes whatever passes for an apology with them as individuals.

Also, if you're referring to his contingencies against Supes and such, kryptonite ist he obvious solution to that problem, and even I can figure THAT one out, without even HALF the "smarts" he's supposed to have! It's not even that "twisted", it's common sense. Though I think having it ON him at any given time while working with the Man of Steel is a bit douchy, to be sure. But Bats has never been much of a team player, anyway. It's just his natural lone-wolf attitude and tendency to see EVERYONE as a potential threat.

[Leo656]

People easily forget that for anyone to use Kryptonite against Superman, even Batman, he has to not know they have it. It's pretty useless against him once the secret's out. He has to be within about 10 feet of it to really be affected by it in the first place, and he has a billion ways to incapacitate someone from that far away.

Kryptonite's the last gasp argument of a Batman fan who doesn't want to admit that their Deity is just a guy with a S.W.A.T. belt, who'd be totally impotent against a guy who could flick a grain of sand into your face at 500mph.

[PangolinFeets]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

I wasn't saying there wouldn't BE a fight; if Leo got anything right, it was Raph rushing in head-first, and the others being drawn in because of that, if nothing else. Most likely, the fight would end in a draw once both sides realized they were on the "same side" as it were. I didn't say there wouldn't BE a fight, just that Bats probably wouldn't really WIN it. Either he'd realize he's fighting a bunch of kids who got in over their heads (in a situation they were in by mischance), or they'd incapacitate him long enough to talk things out. That's how I see it going. No "he'd kill/maim/etc. them" or even "they'd beat him to a pulp". Just a "hey, why the heck were we fighting, again?" situation, where everyone stops and apologizes or makes whatever passes for an apology with them as individuals.

Also, if you're referring to his contingencies against Supes and such, kryptonite ist he obvious solution to that problem, and even I can figure THAT one out, without even HALF the "smarts" he's supposed to have! It's not even that "twisted", it's common sense. Though I think having it ON him at any given time while working with the Man of Steel is a bit douchy, to be sure. But Bats has never been much of a team player, anyway. It's just his natural lone-wolf attitude and tendency to see EVERYONE as a potential threat.

...Or making the Green Lantern think his wife was dead or forcing Diana to fight until she dies of exhaustion or igniting Martian Manhunter? Just a bit twisted. It's more than just water+fire=flame out. There's cold and calculated psychology put into taking out opponents he knows he's not strong enough to beat. It's some Ozymandias-level ****.
It's not really about just IQ. He's good at reading people and a master manipulator. Like when he was captured by the Legion of Doom and managed to talk his way into making half the team at each other's throats, seducing Cheetah and straight up telling Gorilla Grod he's Bruce Wayne and paying him a random.

I'm not even a Batman fan. I'm just going on the bits I know about him from random comics, shows and movies. I LOVE the ninja turtles. I just honestly don't see them crossing enough lines to win this. And for the sake of the argument, let's just say that one side needs to surrender and one needs to win.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by PangolinFeets

And for the sake of the argument, let's just say that one side needs to surrender and one needs to win.

Yeah, I'm definitely not interested in even entertaining the typical "We Fight, Then We Team Up" scenario. They all end the same, so it's double pointless. "I hit you, you hit me, then You and Me fight Him." Ehhhhh. I'm only gonna play this game if one side wins.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, then. I've seen a few instances where at least ONE turtle was just as twisted and played just as dirty! And if he ever really let that side loose.... *shudders*

[Leo656]

Raph's "Rage Mode" is just a front to overcompensate for what an insecure little baby he is inside. He knows he'll never be as smart as Donnie, as funny or as carefree as Mikey, or as good a leader as Leo. And it kills him inside, because he's jealous of all of them. So he's Jan Brady, forever being a dick to everyone in a desperate bid for some kind of attention for himself. The "Tough, angry, and oh-so-dangerous" pose is just the little niche he carved for himself. It's a front. He's a marshmallow.

There, I done said it. "The Angry One" is a big pussycat (or at least HALF of that ). Come at me, bro!

(Dead serious, though. We've never seen a decent in-canon explanation for why Raph's so pissy, so until we get a better one I'm doing the math and saying That's It Right There.)

[Jester]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Raph's "Rage Mode" is just a front to overcompensate for what an insecure little baby he is inside. He knows he'll never be as smart as Donnie, as funny or as carefree as Mikey, or as good a leader as Leo. And it kills him inside, because he's jealous of all of them. So he's Jan Brady, forever being a dick to everyone in a desperate bid for some kind of attention for himself. The "Tough, angry, and oh-so-dangerous" pose is just the little niche he carved for himself. It's a front. He's a marshmallow.

There, I done said it. "The Angry One" is a big pussycat (or at least HALF of that ). Come at me, bro!

This may be why I prefer FW Raph (and really like Astin's Raph....he's at least got his protective streak there.)

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Raph's "Rage Mode" is just a front to overcompensate for what an insecure little baby he is inside. He knows he'll never be as smart as Donnie, as funny or as carefree as Mikey, or as good a leader as Leo. And it kills him inside, because he's jealous of all of them. So he's Jan Brady, forever being a dick to everyone in a desperate bid for some kind of attention for himself. The "Tough, angry, and oh-so-dangerous" pose is just the little niche he carved for himself. It's a front. He's a marshmallow.

There, I done said it. "The Angry One" is a big pussycat (or at least HALF of that ). Come at me, bro!

(Dead serious, though. We've never seen a decent in-canon explanation for why Raph's so pissy, so until we get a better one I'm doing the math and saying That's It Right There.)

Actually, I wasn't referring to Raph. There are two others who fit the bill, though, and either one is more scary than him!

[Leo656]

Ah, well, now you might be onto something.