Spider-Man and Jameson Bury The Hatchet

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Well, I've never been all that interested in the strip to begin with, honestly. I started reading the books early in JMS's run, with the 9-11 tribute issue and the arc where Aunt May finally discovered his secret and confronted him about it. I fell in love with his work on it, and I still feel he has had one of the BEST runs it's ever had- up until the order from on high to nix the marriage, which is allegedly why he LEFT the book and moved over to Thor. I also loved Peter David's run on Friendly Neighborhood S-M, which is my second favorite Spidey series. I loved Strazynski's take on the origin and WHY it happened, as well as some of the characters he brought in, how he wove Spidey into the larger fabric of the MU, and the dynamics of Peter's relationships during his run.

That said, it was the revolving-door roster of writers, the meandering plot-lines, endless ret-cons, and outright ignoring of past history that soured me on the comic after BND began. I just feel like they pissed all over the long-time fans, in a blatant attempt to bring in new ones for the sake of netting a "younger" audience. It didn't work. Even younger fans were too familiar with a Peter attached to M-J because of the movies.

Gwen's death (and her secret connection to Norman Osbourn and the whole mess with her twin children) was at least still relevant prior to BND, even being given its own remembrance story in the book Spider-Man: Blue. These kinds of things were what drew me into the Spidey books to begin with, and it just feels like that kind of story-telling has been thrown out, in favor of the next big event, like Superior, or Spider-Island.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Well, I've never been all that interested in the strip to begin with

Fair enough. I know it isn't for everyone, I reckon because, as detailed here, it does not take many creative risks, and also because it can be viewed as "too corny", but I find it more enjoyable than the regular books and everyone actually acts in-character, plus it's always nice to read a universe where the marraige is portrayed as consistently stable. Peter having very little problems makes for more refreshing reading.

Interestingly enough, the current arc the strip is doing seems to be a bit of a middle finger to the recently concluded Superior Spider-Man, with Doc Ock proving himself a hero without a mind switch. No doubt he'll reveal his true colors eventually, but I do find this amusing.

Agreed on JMS, he was doing phenomenal things with Aunt May that most writers have not bothered with. I fail to see the point in keeping her alive, yeah they married her to Jameson's father, but she's done a big old load of nothing outside of that one plot point ever since.

I'm a 90s fan, so I'm always going to be biased towards Aunt May's death from issue 400 of ASM, where she confessed she had always known but had denied it. The morons at editorial retconned that May as an actress, but Spider-Girl's creator insists the real May was who died in that issue and his own continuity clings to that mentality.

There's nothing wrong with how JMS handled May confronting Peter's identity, but it did some retconning of it's own by having May be responsible for Ben's death because he went outside for a walk after an argument with her and ended up getting shot (in the original history, he was shot inside the house)

I think it's easier just to think of ASM as being an anthology book for various alternative continuity stories and spare yourself the headache of thinking it's one big long story that stretches out over fifty years. It's long stopped being that. For me, the real story ended when Spider-Girl was axed. The daily strips are just a welcome bonus

[MsMarvelDuckie]

"I fail to see the point in keeping her alive, yeah they married her to Jameson's father, but she's done a big old load of nothing outside of that one plot point ever since."


Actually, her marrying Jameson's father came AFTER the end of his run. During the BND period, actually. I had no problem with that, myself, but I never saw much point to it, either.


"There's nothing wrong with how JMS handled May confronting Peter's identity, but it did some ret-conning of it's own by having May be responsible for Ben's death because he went outside for a walk after an argument with her and ended up getting shot (in the original history, he was shot inside the house)"


He still died inside the house, it was just after coming home instead of having been there the whole time. I seem to recall he was shot on the stairs just after coming in. So that didn't change, we just go more of the backstory of what happened before he died, and how she felt it was her fault for fighting with him.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Actually, her marrying Jameson's father came AFTER the end of his run. During the BND period, actually. I had no problem with that, myself, but I never saw much point to it, either.

I know it occured after JMS left, I was just pointing out how that's been the only significant development with her of the last seven years and even then it has'nt led to anything ground-breaking or interesting for the character. It feels like she's on life support more than a genuine creative desire by anyone to keep her around. That's why I can't take to this current reality, it seems designed to keep May happy at the expense of everyone else, once the deal is undone, May will die and the proper story can resume, but in the meantime we're stuck waiting for that to happen...at least make May interesting again before that happens so you justify all those years spent making her seemingly 'happy' while Peter and MJ live miserable lives behaving irrationally around one another. It makes me hate May rather than be endeared to her. Her time is reallisticly up.

He still died inside the house, it was just after coming home instead of having been there the whole time. I seem to recall he was shot on the stairs just after coming in. So that didn't change, we just go more of the backstory of what happened before he died, and how she felt it was her fault for fighting with him.

Oh right, must be a faulty memory of mine then

[MsMarvelDuckie]

That's okay, That arc happens to be one of my favorites, especially since it was the first Spidey book I read when I got into them. The TPB of it- along with that really moving and inspiring 9-11 tribute issue- is what actually got me into comics. It was the first time I'd ever been moved to tears (no lie!) by a comic book. It's also what made me want to start writing comics of my own. (And thus, why I created Red-Back!)

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

That's okay, That arc happens to be one of my favorites, especially since it was the first Spidey book I read when I got into them. The TPB of it- along with that really moving and inspiring 9-11 tribute issue- is what actually got me into comics. It was the first time I'd ever been moved to tears (no lie!) by a comic book. It's also what made me want to start writing comics of my own. (And thus, why I created Red-Back!)

Whenever I read that fic of yours I get transported back to that time, it clearly left a big impression on you and it's good to know you sort of continue the themes of that era.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Thank you. Funny thing is, up until that time, I'd never truly realized that comic books could have such powerful storytelling or themes, so it was a real eye-opener for me. It's why I got into comics in the first place. Before that, I'd only really read the X-Men Legends collection that had Storm (in her Mohawk days) kidnapped and mind-warped by Loki, and the "New Mutants" kids ending up in Asgard trying to rescue her (and themselves). It was an interesting story, and there was another volume I can't seem to find anymore that again featured Loki, but he took the entire team to a hidden pocket world he created for them, where Rogue and Cyclops could control their abilities, and others got their wishes, but the catch was that they could never leave if they wanted to keep his "gifts". Those were really the only two collections I'd ever read other than a couple of random Hulk and Spidey issues from back in the seventies. Mostly I was only familiar with the 90's cartoons, which also have been a big influence on my writing with Red-Back.

So I guess you could say that that arc was my first REAL introduction into GOOD comic book writing. JMS (and Peter David!) is still one of my favorite comic writers because of that run. He gave such a fresh look at he entire Spidey mythos, without really changing anything. Even his "changes" were mostly just new interpretations of past events seen from a different perspective. Like having his powers actually being part of a greater destiny that the "Spider totem" granted him because of all the people in the room that day, he was ONE person who could understand what it meant to have them. The introduction of Ezekiel was one of the high points of that run, as was the character of Lamont. I really enjoyed his style, and his revelations that Peter was ALWAYS meant to have those powers. Made it feel so much more like there was a bigger picture than just a guy fighting super-villains.

[ZariusTwo]

It seems 616 is actively going to approach the Spider-Totem story again for the Spider-Verse event, which I kind of find amusing given the real life heat that exists between JMS and Dan Slott over a facebook skirmish a couple of years ago where JMS pointed out ASM's embarrasing sales figures compared to his run

[MsMarvelDuckie]

As much as I like some of Slott's writing, I am not surprised. However, I don't think the sales slump was so much on him, as on storyline decisions that came from the editorial staff. (read- Quesada) The sad fact is that they've made more bad decisions since the end of JMS's run than in twenty years before that.

[ZariusTwo]

Correct. Slott is actually credited with turning the plummeting sales figures around, with Superior being the pinnacle of this process. As bad as some of his writing can get, Slott has tried to clean up some of the messier details lumbered with the franchise after OMD, though he has still managed to irritate readers with the way he has treated the more established characters and bigged up his own original creations (and his favourite villain Doc Ock) as being more important. How much of that is him and how much of it is editorial I don't really know.

He was also the guy who once famously said "anyone who acts out of character is from an alternate universe and is'nt following the manuel", and from the way he writes the book now, it's almost as if he's following the beleif this is'nt supposed to be the 'proper' Spider-Man or indeed the 'proper' versions of anyone who inhabits his world, and he may very well make use of this in a meta way when we reach Spider-Verse, an oppertunity to take Spider-Men who are much older or more mature than BND era Peter and basicly have them all put him down for being inferior to them. I'm not expecting that but it would be fairly nice to see. However, if they did that, Marvel would have to admit the last seven years have been a mistake and I reckon their pride won't allow that.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Wow. Makes me glad I haven't kept up with the Spider-book since that gods-awful OMIT mess. He must have been using that philosophy in regards to M-J for that arc. (Did he even write that arc? I don't recall who DID, but it almost made me want to cry/curse/rip the book up/slap the writer/etc....)

And haven't we already HAD a "spider-verse" in the form of Spider Island??

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Wow. Makes me glad I haven't kept up with the Spider-book since that gods-awful OMIT mess. He must have been using that philosophy in regards to M-J for that arc. (Did he even write that arc? I don't recall who DID, but it almost made me want to cry/curse/rip the book up/slap the writer/etc....)

Quesada himself wrote OMIT, but he's admitted Slott helped him plan it out.

And haven't we already HAD a "spider-verse" in the form of Spider Island??

Spider-Island was all about the people of Manhatten gaining Peter's powers (and it's the only time Slott's written MJ decently), Spider-Verse is about every Spider-Man from every alternate universe (including Peter and MJ's daughter Mayday) teaming up to battle Morlun, the big bad of the JMS era, who is going across the multiverse killing as many Spideys as possible for some unknown purpose

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Thus proving once again that the "new" era has NO respect or memory where pre BND storylines are concerned. I DID read a little of the Spider Island arc, and it was just meh. Honestly, this is just another excuse to have multiple "Spideys" in play at once, or basically a "what if" kind of story. Kind of reminds me of the final arc of the S-M: TAS, actually. Only not as good. At least that series kept track of its own continuity, and the threat wasn't just another badly-resurrected villain.

Don't they even remember that Peter (or whatever he briefly became in that arc) ATE Morlun in "The Other"?? Seriously. He bit off his head. And M-J witnessed it. So HOW THE FREAK IS HE EVEN ALIVE??!! That's just lazy writing, and creates yet ANOTHER continuity hole where none existed before. Slott may have "fixed" a few gaffes, but it sounds like he and Quesada are Hell-bent on undoing everything JMS did that was worth anything, and replacing it with their own ideas. That just reeks of a lack of respect for both the writer and the characters.

Re: OMIT- it figures that would have been Joe Q's brainchild. It was so grossly OOC for her that it made me curse out loud, followed by some weeping and fighting the urge to rip up the comics Id' JUST BOUGHT. I think I may have even invented some new insulting epithets that day....

[ZariusTwo]

Morlun was ressurected in an issue of Black Panther and sent into a hell-dimension at the end of that.

And now Slott is looking to piss off fans of the MC2 Spider-Girl by devoting one of the October issues of ASM to her as part of the Spider-Verse event....with her family coming under attack. That's right, one of only a few universes where Peter has a happy ending, and it's going to get trashed and in all the more likelyhood, will see Peter or Mayday die (probably Peter so they can make the optimistic and fun-loving Mayday a brooding figure). Ugh. I'm just going to deny this is even the same universe I've enjoyed from 1998-2010, which is'nt hard to do considering the UK Spidey comics also have a similar future timeline with Mayday.