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Old 01-11-2018, 12:04 PM   #41
FredWolfLeonardo
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I guess a more fair comparison for the tmnt is being trained in the army rather than high school.

There is none of this "Use your special talent" in the army. Rather, its "Everyone must meet a certain skill level and keep it that way otherwise you're pure trash."
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The biggest villains were the censors. What they could do without being held back is my question. Shredder could've done more than blow up the Channel Six building. I don't mean as far as murdering Splinter, but think of the possibilities if censors were not an issue. Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:09 PM   #42
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Being able to meet a certain skill level, and keep it that way, isn't the same thing as everyone having the exact same skill level in all things.

There's a reason those are minimum levels.
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:16 PM   #43
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Being able to meet a certain skill level, and keep it that way, isn't the same thing as everyone having the exact same skill level in all things.

There's a reason those are minimum levels.
Yes, but there is a uniformity in the army if you compare people who do the same thing and have been trained in that for a equal number of years.

Sure, there is some minor variation but the two soldiers will largely be the same at their jobs due to the nature of it.

The Mirage tmnt in Issue 1 were trained to be assassins with the purpose of killing Shredder in the same way, under the same master for 15 years and their uniformity really showed when they worked as a team.
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The biggest villains were the censors. What they could do without being held back is my question. Shredder could've done more than blow up the Channel Six building. I don't mean as far as murdering Splinter, but think of the possibilities if censors were not an issue. Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:35 PM   #44
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So...taking your logic further, Raph can lead.
I mean, he's got the same skills as Leo does, and they've had the same training.
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:39 PM   #45
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So...taking your logic further, Raph can lead.
I mean, he's got the same skills as Leo does, and they've had the same training.
Leadership is not just about fighting skills. Leonardo also has a stricter code of honour than Raphael, more wisdom, is more level headed and takes time to meditate upon Splinter's teachings.

Besides, if you have been following recent tmnt news, Raphael is gonna be the leader in the 2018 show.
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The biggest villains were the censors. What they could do without being held back is my question. Shredder could've done more than blow up the Channel Six building. I don't mean as far as murdering Splinter, but think of the possibilities if censors were not an issue. Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:45 PM   #46
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Leadership is not just about fighting skills. Leonardo also has a stricter code of honour than Raphael, more wisdom, is more level headed and takes time to meditate upon Splinter's teachings.
But that doesn't make any sense, they had the same teacher. Why would Leo's sense of Honor or Wisdom be any different than Raph's?

If they are as interchangeable as you and Andrew insist that they are, there's no reason for Leonardo to be the leader at all.
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:52 PM   #47
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But that doesn't make any sense, they had the same teacher. Why would Leo's sense of Honor or Wisdom be any different than Raph's?

If they are as interchangeable as you and Andrew insist that they are, there's no reason for Leonardo to be the leader at all.
Wisdom is much different from physical strength and reflexes. The former cannot be taught and requires internal reflection while the latter can be and is a matter of training.

Me and Andrew never suggested anything like that. They may have roughly the same level of fighting skills (atleast in earlier versions), but there are other differences between the turtles such as their personalities etc.
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The biggest villains were the censors. What they could do without being held back is my question. Shredder could've done more than blow up the Channel Six building. I don't mean as far as murdering Splinter, but think of the possibilities if censors were not an issue. Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:53 PM   #48
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But that doesn't make any sense, they had the same teacher. Why would Leo's sense of Honor or Wisdom be any different than Raph's?

If they are as interchangeable as you and Andrew insist that they are, there's no reason for Leonardo to be the leader at all.
He's not the leader. Splinter is. Leonardo is "Splinter in waiting/training in case Splinter dies."

The idea that the TMNT need a leader within themselves is as flawed as the idea that Splinter wouldn't be conditioning them in exactly the same ways, with exactly the same exercises. It's not like Splinter would be like, "You seem emotional today, Donatello-san... you may do 3 hours less on the free weights and 5 less katas. Papa loves you! Shredder will probably just seppuku himself one day, no worries."
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:56 PM   #49
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Or, Splinter would see where each Turtle excel beyond the standard training and expand each Turtle's skill set and hone their individual abilities as well. As a good Ninja would do.
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:58 PM   #50
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What makes Leo so special that he gets to be the On Deck leader?

They're either all exactly the same, or they're not.
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:58 PM   #51
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What makes Leo so special that he gets to be the On Deck leader?
Well, it has to be somebody. Maybe he was the first one to speak or something, who knows.
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:01 PM   #52
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Well, it has to be somebody. Maybe he was the first one to speak or something, who knows.
By your own words it doesn't have to be anybody.
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:03 PM   #53
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Or, Splinter would see where each Turtle excel beyond the standard training and expand each Turtle's skill set and hone their individual abilities as well. As a good Ninja would do.
Thats certainly the case in later versions. Not that I'm against it or anything, I'd be willing to give it a chance. I'm interested to see what makes Splinter choose Raphael the leader in the 2018 show.

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What makes Leo so special that he gets to be the On Deck leader?

They're either all exactly the same, or they're not.
You'd be the last person to argue in black and white And just because he's leader doesn't mean he's superior even outside of Mirage. Say for example in the Original Cartoon, Leonardo was the offical and undisputed leader despite the turtles being roughly interchangable in terms of fighting skills. That didn't make him any more special, as all four turtles were treated as equals in that series, who worked as a unit.

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Well, it has to be somebody. Maybe he was the first one to speak or something, who knows.
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The biggest villains were the censors. What they could do without being held back is my question. Shredder could've done more than blow up the Channel Six building. I don't mean as far as murdering Splinter, but think of the possibilities if censors were not an issue. Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.

Last edited by FredWolfLeonardo; 01-11-2018 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 01-11-2018, 03:34 PM   #54
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It's a difficult question although for the video games at least Donatello is definitely the best character up until the 2007 video game.

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Well, as Andrew would say: its the source material
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Old 01-11-2018, 03:40 PM   #55
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It's a difficult question although for the video games at least Donatello is definitely the best character up until the 2007 video game.
Yeah, he was Rocksteady's worst nightmare
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The biggest villains were the censors. What they could do without being held back is my question. Shredder could've done more than blow up the Channel Six building. I don't mean as far as murdering Splinter, but think of the possibilities if censors were not an issue. Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.
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Old 01-11-2018, 03:44 PM   #56
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And just because he's leader doesn't mean he's superior even outside of Mirage. Say for example in the Original Cartoon, Leonardo was the offical and undisputed leader despite the turtles being roughly interchangable in terms of fighting skills. That didn't make him any more special, as all four turtles were treated as equals in that series, who worked as a unit.
Some turtles are just more equal than others...
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Old 01-11-2018, 03:49 PM   #57
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Some turtles are just more equal than others...
turtle privelige!
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Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87 View Post
The biggest villains were the censors. What they could do without being held back is my question. Shredder could've done more than blow up the Channel Six building. I don't mean as far as murdering Splinter, but think of the possibilities if censors were not an issue. Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:10 PM   #58
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Me and Andrew never suggested anything like that. They may have roughly the same level of fighting skills (atleast in earlier versions), but there are other differences between the turtles such as their personalities etc.
I mean would't their personalties effect how much they train or excel, we all know Raph is the hot head so would't it make sense if he put more effort into close quarters. Or what about talent, we all accept the fact that Donnie is a natural when it comes to engineering and science so is it too far off to say Mikey is more talented than his brothers at stealth and its not to say his other brothers are terrible at stealth just that he is the best at it.
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:47 PM   #59
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I mean would't their personalties effect how much they train or excel, we all know Raph is the hot head so would't it make sense if he put more effort into close quarters. Or what about talent, we all accept the fact that Donnie is a natural when it comes to engineering and science so is it too far off to say Mikey is more talented than his brothers at stealth and its not to say his other brothers are terrible at stealth just that he is the best at it.
Once again, it depends on the version, but you are right one way or the other as there is either minor or major variation due to their personalities.

The turtles are not carbon copies of each other, but not so different that they share very less in common in either.

I personally prefer the turtles not having their personalities having major affects on their fighting skills, so we don't get things like Michelangelo becoming the worst fighter because of the writers dumping all the comic relief on him or Leonardo becoming overly important till the point where he overshadows the other turtles.
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The biggest villains were the censors. What they could do without being held back is my question. Shredder could've done more than blow up the Channel Six building. I don't mean as far as murdering Splinter, but think of the possibilities if censors were not an issue. Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.

Last edited by FredWolfLeonardo; 01-11-2018 at 11:00 PM.
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Old 01-12-2018, 03:27 AM   #60
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Once again, it depends on the version, but you are right one way or the other as there is either minor or major variation due to their personalities.
The thread is about personal preference and not scoring each incarnation, though.
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