Your religious views and positions on matters such as God and the meaning of life?

[IndigoErth]

Random, but since it's in relation to religion, I figured I'd toss this on here. Found it kind of funny.

Been tinkering with the genealogy research tonight and found this little tidbit. This would be my great-great-great-great-great grandfather (born around 1780).



Tisk tisk. Clearly I come from a long line of heathen nonconformists. Really, who even told on him?



Amazing how times change though. People are still uptight about stuff and yet when you consider the things people have relaxed about... and so far no gods have destroy the world over it.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

...so far no gods have destroy the world over it.

That's subjective.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Not really. They are just sitting back and watching us do it ourselves. They haven't destroyed us because they don't NEED to- we do it well enough on our own!

@ FWLeo- thank you for that well-thought and intelligent post. You have stated perfectly what I have also tried to say, regarding the use of scientific attempts to study what is essentially a spiritual question. I think that the biggest issue here is that these scientists are, as you said, coming at the queztion from the wrong direction. Rather than refuting free will, the experiments are in fact simply describing the mechanics of it, ie, where it originates and how it relates to the physical brain. But the concept itself as you said is immaterial and outside the realm of science by definition. Conscious thought can be measured by electrodes, but not seen or described except through the nedium of thought itself. And therein lies the problem. You can measure the impulses that MAKE UP consciousness, but not the thoughts themselves as they have no physical matter or mass to study.

[Commenter 42]

It's become a conversation about the legitimacy and efficacy of science, vs magic/spiritualism.

Works has been stressful lately, so I don't have the will or time to address all the points raised, but I will when I get the time...

Until then, @FW & @Duckie: I don't accept the premise, at all, so it's difficult have an honest debate.

Maybe Plastron is right, I can't believe I'm saying it, but her argument is sound. I just don't have a horse in the race. This metaphor is almost absolute; I'd argue there aren't any horses, just a race. A horseless race.



@FW:

So, just to be clear, your argument is that understanding religion is not the domain of reality, or physicality, any of the sciences, including physics, maths, biology, chemistry, cosmology, etc...

The only place to truly investigate "god" is, in your mind?

Is that the argument?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Well ask yourself- how do you quantify "god"? Where do you even look? Or the soul? It's not something science on its own can explain or define. There is no measureing stick for the soul. It is something one must simply accept and seek through meditation and reflection. Though there have been attempts, but none have ever definitively answered these questions. You can't ascribe meaning to life by just learning about the mechanics of it. That must come from within. And it is different for everyone. Your meaning may not be the same as someone else's. It is within the realm of philosophy, not science.

[plastroncafe]

I won an argument I wasn't even part of?
Sweet! Go me!

[Commenter 42]

No, there's no need to look for or accept what does not exist.

Try and see it from my perspective. I can see that you have a spiritual belief, even though I don't.
Earlier, I asked if my PlayStation was conscious. Is my book shelf? My couch? Do couches go to heaven when they die?
Not in anyway poking fun, just trying to get you to see how utterly absurd I find the concept.

I am not, just to be clear, calling you absurd. I'm cribbing the Dawkins FSM argument, sure...but I don't know how else to get across what it means to not believe.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

I won an argument I wasn't even part of?
Sweet! Go me!

Great kid, now don't get cocky.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

It's become a conversation about the legitimacy and efficacy of science, vs magic/spiritualism.

Works has been stressful lately, so I don't have the will or time to address all the points raised, but I will when I get the time...

Until then, @FW & @Duckie: I don't accept the premise, at all, so it's difficult have an honest debate.

Maybe Plastron is right, I can't believe I'm saying it, but her argument is sound. I just don't have a horse in the race. This metaphor is almost absolute; I'd argue there aren't any horses, just a race. A horseless race.



@FW:

So, just to be clear, your argument is that understanding religion is not the domain of reality, or physicality, any of the sciences, including physics, maths, biology, chemistry, cosmology, etc...

The only place to truly investigate "god" is, in your mind?

Is that the argument?

Hope you have been coping well with work, and there is no hurry or pressure to reply if you don't want to thats totally fine, and if you do tbats great as well.

As for your question, yes, that is what I believe to its core, I see the connection between God and physicality to be so close yet so far, how we view everything (including science) through our immaterial minds and yet how the mind itself is just not of the same essence to every physical thing we percieve through it.

You're a clever person C42, and I am enjoying this. I hope things get better for you at work and don't get discouraged from ever replying, as I love to see your thoughts and I don't view this debate or people of other views in a hostile way. Peace

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

I'd argue there aren't any horses, just a race. A horseless race.

And at that point, why do people even bother with a race. The objectives are all different, the finish lines are all different, and when anyone crosses their own and no one else shows up, it's not even a win.

It's August, it's too hot for races anyhow, just sit down and share some cold drinks instead.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Hope you have been coping well with work, and there is no hurry or pressure to reply if you don't want to thats totally fine, and if you do tbats great as well.

As for your question, yes, that is what I believe to its core, I see the connection between God and physicality to be so close yet so far, how we view everything (including science) through our immaterial minds and yet how the mind itself is just not of the same essence to every physical thing we percieve through it.

You're a clever person C42, and I am enjoying this. I hope things get better for you at work and don't get discouraged from ever replying, as I love to see your thoughts and I don't view this debate or people of other views in a hostile way. Peace

Despite our different views, I respect you. You've stood your ground, and allowed the debate to remain intellectual, instead of devolving into hostility.

It's refreshing, so yes, when I can give my full attention, I'll gladly go much deeper, see if I can't disabuse you a little of your illusions.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

And at that point, why do people even bother with a race. The objectives are all different, the finish lines are all different, and when anyone crosses their own and no one else shows up, it's not even a win.

It's August, it's too hot for races anyhow, just sit down and share some cold drinks instead.

Brilliant. Better said, for sure. That's some A game girl. Dayum.

I'm not even running a C today, need a break. You just won the thread. Again.

That might end up my first ever Sig quote. Boom.

[Machias Banshee]

I just wanted to pop in and say that you have done a GREAT job with the debating in here... I've been keeping an eye on everyone here, and you've ALL been so civil and fantastic with sharing your views. I wish all the threads on the forum were like this.


Carry on...

[Powder]

I thought to say the same last night but I didn't wanna jinx it.

But yeah, it is a refreshing change of pace!

[BubblyShell22]

I agree. We may have different views, but everything has been going great and that's a wonderful thing compared to how these discussions have ended in the past.

To add, I do believe free will exists and that we all make the conscious decision to act on a certain thing. I may have said this before, but I don't remember so I decided to post my views again.

As for the meaning of life, I feel that we will never know what that is as a whole. I feel that we can create our own meaning out of life and do what we should for ourselves. If one believes in God and wishes to do things for God, that's cool. If one doesn't then you can always just do things for yourself or for others as needed. Life throws us curve balls and while it may be frustrating at times, the best thing one can do is just roll with the punches. I truly believe in good and bad karma and that if you do good, something good will happen and if you do bad or if someone else does something bad, then karma will strike in a bad way.

Needless to say, with everything my mom has been doing for my dad, I feel some good karma will be coming her way even if she doesn't believe it with everything that's been going on.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

No, there's no need to look for or accept what does not exist.

Try and see it from my perspective. I can see that you have a spiritual belief, even though I don't.
Earlier, I asked if my PlayStation was conscious. Is my book shelf? My couch? Do couches go to heaven when they die?
Not in anyway poking fun, just trying to get you to see how utterly absurd I find the concept.

I am not, just to be clear, calling you absurd. I'm cribbing the Dawkins FSM argument, sure...but I don't know how else to get across what it means to not believe.

Yet a couch CAN'T "go to heaven" because it is not alive and therefore cannot die. Further, it can't believe or not believe in god. It has no mind or consciousness. That logic is faulty. Perhaps if you had used a cat or a horse, the analovy would be valid. Inanimate objects cannot by their very innanimate nature have any kind of soul or consciousness. So I don't understand where you are even going with that line of arguement.

You assume that I don't understand what it means to not believe in faith or a higher power. The truth is I DO. I went for several years of being an atheist as a teen, in part due to the rampant hypocrisy I saw in organized religion- particularly the one I was raised in. It also had a lot to do with things that went on when I was growing up, and how I felt that no loving deity would allow such things, so there must not be one. But then I began looking for meaning and purpose outside of organized mainstream faiths. I went through a period of deep introspection to what I TRULY believed in, both as a philosophy and ethically/morally. That was what led me to where I am now. I "dabbled" in several paths, including Buddhism, Taoism and Confusianism, Native American shamanism, and even back to Christianity as a strictly moral practice. Nothing really made sense until I stumbled onto the "Craft" as some call it during my research. But for years, I really hated the entire concept of church and faith. I could not reconcile it with what I felt. Because what I felt was an affinity for something far older and more primal and instinctive. Essentially I was drawn to nature and its cycles, and the complexities that exist within a spider's web or a drop of rain. But that is what being Wiccan does for me- it shows the connections between all life and all physical matter. For me that IS the meaning to life and the universe itself. It is as much spuritual as concrete, and there is no differnce between the two for me as they are intertwined. They ARE the threads in the web of life.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Yet a couch CAN'T "go to heaven" because it is not alive and therefore cannot die. Further, it can't believe or not believe in god. It has no mind or consciousness. That logic is faulty. Perhaps if you had used a cat or a horse, the analovy would be valid. Inanimate objects cannot by their very innanimate nature have any kind of soul or consciousness. So I don't understand where you are even going with that line of arguement.

My point was, this, exactly. it's obvious to you, that my statement was ridiculous; so it is with your assertion that souls, or that any afterlife exists, to me.

Maybe this would be a better analogy; for some people, Michael Bay made a perfect TMNT movie, but for other people, he didn't know a Michelangelo from a Michelob. Some people believe Trump, a billionaire from NY, cares deeply about them, and will infact Make America great again, while others know America was never actually great, and that corporate greed is the only thing running for office, blue or red.

People hold illogical ideas, mostly because once we decide to agree with an idea, our brain works very hard to convince us that we were right, even when we're wrong.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

You assume that I don't understand what it means to not believe in faith or a higher power. The truth is I DO. I went for several years of being an atheist as a teen, in part due to the rampant hypocrisy I saw in organized religion- particularly the one I was raised in. It also had a lot to do with things that went on when I was growing up, and how I felt that no loving deity would allow such things, so there must not be one. But then I began looking for meaning and purpose outside of organized mainstream faiths. I went through a period of deep introspection to what I TRULY believed in, both as a philosophy and ethically/morally. That was what led me to where I am now. I "dabbled" in several paths, including Buddhism, Taoism and Confusianism, Native American shamanism, and even back to Christianity as a strictly moral practice. Nothing really made sense until I stumbled onto the "Craft" as some call it during my research. But for years, I really hated the entire concept of church and faith. I could not reconcile it with what I felt. Because what I felt was an affinity for something far older and more primal and instinctive. Essentially I was drawn to nature and its cycles, and the complexities that exist within a spider's web or a drop of rain. But that is what being Wiccan does for me- it shows the connections between all life and all physical matter. For me that IS the meaning to life and the universe itself. It is as much spuritual as concrete, and there is no differnce between the two for me as they are intertwined. They ARE the threads in the web of life.

So, you didn't like religion A, so you left. You assumed the only reason that god didn't exists was because bad things happen. Then you went looking for meaning to life, and finally found something that fits your views.

To be blunt, you never stopped believing, You just changed horses. You've never been an atheist, just angry. An atheist recognizes that there isn't a meaning to life, in the theistic sense at least.

Duckie, you want life to mean something, so you need a way to put it all together.
I don't think that way, and a lot of people don't either. I'm not saying you couldn't, I'm saying you haven't. Once you cross that bridge, for real, there isn't a way back.


The last bit, about the complexity of a spiders web, sure it's cool. The way Hydrogen and oxygen clump together, it's great! Water is tasty, we all need it.
But all the meaning? You're brain is making it up, not the universe.

Yes, the universe is all interconnected, and we have a scientific term for it! it's called the laws of physics! it's called the standard model! It's called string theory!

The Universe really doesn't care about meaning anything. Tea Leaves really are just tea leaves.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

No, I really DID completely disavow all faith for a long time. I left because, like you, I was disgusted with the whole concept. Not just because bad things happened- that started long before I took that unbelieving attitude. But the fact that even growing up in that faith I never connected with it and never felt it meant anything beyond stories to scare people into behaving was part of that too. You seem to think this was all a short process that I went straight through. I didn't. I stopped believing in ANYTHING but "science and reality" for several YEARS before I ever began to think about life having a meaning. That didn't happen until I was almost out of high school, and by then I'd been done with religion of any kind for nearly half my life at that point. From about 8 to 17. So yes, I WAS. It wasn't until I met a guy on a school trip my junior year who was Buddhist (and a Brit) that I started asking myself if there was more to life than just what we can explain. When it finally happened, it was a life-altering experience. I began to question what I'd been taught, and what faith and spirituallity was and what it meant to me. But in between, I was just as pro-science and completely against all religion as you. I WAS where you are. But I changed. Because I looked beyond what I "knew" as real and asked "what is all this over here?".

Now, I realize I did go through that at a young age. But there were things going on that caused that attitude, and yes I WAS angry- at myself for thinking there could ever have been a "god" in the first place. At my family for forceing that "myth" on me. At society for swallowing the idea of a kind and just deity. I was YOU. It was that trip and the person I met that changed that. I didn't start soul-searching until after I returned and got curious about HIS faith. And realized there were other ways of looking at the world that didn't match what I grew up with or what I thought I knew. (Side note- he was my first love which is a big part of the reason why it changed my way of thinking.)

As an aside, paranormal studies are something I have always had an interest in, but not for the reasons you seem to ascribe. Not because of any belief in an afterlife or heaven, faith, etc, but because the evidence for residual "spirit" energy is compelling. I approach it as a phneomenon that is both physical and concrete which can be understood- even if we call it a "ghost". The energy readings measured by MANY experts in such "hauntings" and the objects moving about in many cases is hardly something to dismiss as imagination. Especially after one has seen such things first-hand, and know there was no logical explanation for why it should have happened. As Sherlock Holmes would say, eliminate all other possibilities and the one that remains, however implausible, must be the truth. That is how I go about it. Process of elimination. That's science for you.

But of course, I know I will not change your mind- I simply want you to understand why and how I got to where I am. People are not static and unchanging. Sometimes a life-changing person or event comes along that makes you stop and ask yourself what is important to you. And THAT my friend is the true meaning of life- that ONE THING, as Curly said in City Slickers. But you have to find it for yourself. And that is why people have faith in anything in the first place. Not because it is logical or reasonable or because it is scientifically explainable. But because it makes sense to them as individuals. It is that person's ONE THING that means something to them. Everything else is just justification, complication, or semantics. It is that ONE THING that matters TO YOU that gives it meaning.

[plastroncafe]

Sometimes it takes someone outside of a group to explain that group.
Like for instance, this bit from Terry Pratchett's, "Hogfather."



Pratchett was a very vocal atheist and death-rights activist, he was also a superb satirist.

For those who don't know his work, it's largely based in a fictional high-fantasy world where the earth is flat and sits upon the back of four elephants which in turn rides on the back of a giant turtle. The Hogfather is this world's Santa Claus, and in this book he goes missing, so Death takes his place until he's found.

The woman is Death's granddaughter Susan. At the beginning it was explained to her that if "Santa" wasn't found the sun wouldn't rise. In the above clip he's explaining to her why that is.

(And yeah, that's totally Mary Crawly from "Downton Abbey" playing Susan.)

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Sorry to double post but I just want to address your assertion about the laws of physics. It may surprise you to learn that my faith actually does address this matter. One of the main tenets is that what people call "magick" (which you cinsider absurd) is actually nature's laws in action, cause and effect on a very subtle scale that can either be almost unnoticable or very dramatic depending on what is being sought and how.

There is something we call acting in accord. Belief by itself is not enough to cause a cyange, one must also act in accord to bring it to fruition- for instance, one cannot expect to find a mate by simply doing an invocation, one must also get out and meet people and do things out where the kind of person you want to meet might be found. Places like hobby groups, coffee shops, or whatever it is you enjoy.

In spite of what you might think, there is NO conflict between what I believe and what science tells me- they are one and the same. What you call string theory and standard model is a fancy way of explaining how what I do works, but that doesn't change what it is or that it works. (Whether you agree or not is not the issue here, I am just explaining how it is taught to novices.) Science does not yet have a way to understand it, but it obeys the laws of physics in its implication. It works THROUGH physics and the laws of nature, which is what most people never realize or fully understand. Call it coinicdence or whatever, but it doesn't change the results! It just makes them easier to stomach for some people.....