DC Relaunching AGAIN

[TurtleTitan97]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Superman vs Muhamad Ali to be remade, with Harley Quinn taking Ali's place. Neil Adams is on board for this one.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/03/...onkickoff2016/

[myconius]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Superman vs Muhamad Ali to be remade, with Harley Quinn taking Ali's place. Neil Adams is on board for this one.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/03/...onkickoff2016/

if Neal Adams is drawing it, then it at least needs my consideration!!

[shuriken]

Originally Posted by Leo656

People don't get it, it didn't used to be like this. DC was great about consistency for years, they had ONE major reboot in 75 years, back in '86. Sometimes individual characters would have backstories "tidied up" or old stuff would be swept under the rug but all this recent retcon/reboot sh*t is 100% Dan DiDio and his cronies, who make every editorial decision based on Sales Panic. That guy is like the single worst thing to EVER happen to DC as an entity.

Anyone trying to get into reading DC comics would have no problem doing so if they ignored most everything before "Crisis on Infinite Earths", used that as a starting point, and just followed the company's line from 1986 through 2010. Everything between that is really not at all complicated, although a lot of stuff in the late-90s simply wasn't very good but it was still consistent and recognizable. None of the stuff they did in between like Zero Hour or Infinite Crisis really had a huge effect on any continuity, mostly just minor tweaks to things readers already knew but nothing world-breaking. And most people don't need to bother with anything pre-1986, anyway, the Silver/Bronze Age was pretty unrelentingly silly and all the best stuff is easily found in TPBs, and the rest is junk best left ignored anyway.

Point is, DC really DID have a great universe, and a great mythology, that really anyone should get into and enjoy, BUT that Universe starts at Crisis and dissolves at the end of Flashpoint. But you really can't go wrong with the 25-year run in between. They've done nothing at ALL since 2010 that I've enjoyed, but I still highly encourage anyone to check out the "real" DCU from 1986-2010. For one thing, all the cartoons everyone jerks off to borrowed 99% of their stories from the books of that era, so if nothing else it's worth it to see where those stories first came from.

The constant shift towards "It's not selling? REBOOT!" since about 2005 is all DiDio. The editors and not the writers have been steering DC the wrong way for a decade, because ALL they care about is beating Marvel in sales which means "Events, Reboots, and Mega-Deaths of Major Characters" because that's supposedly what pushes sales. DC's sales have NEVER actually supported that theory, but it's the one DiDio subscribes to and what every new direction is based on.

Comics would be more fun if they weren't now a business aimed at only at selling action figures. That's really all they are anymore. It's 100% profit-driven and not story-driven. Both companies are guilty of it, but Marvel was actually run (into the ground) by a toy company for a years and years, to the point people got used to it, and plus the writing hadn't been that company's focus in decades, anyway, they've always been more a "Superstar Artists on Big Event Books" comic company than a story-driven one. DC's line was always more story-driven, and once it became all about the Big Events that was the end. It took them so far away from what they were actually about as a company and the way they did super-hero books. Now they're literally no different from Marvel, and not in any good way.

So yeah, f*ck modern DC. If they're doing anything other than, "Just kidding about Flashpoint and the New 52, we're just pretending everything since 2009 never happened!", it's not worth the effort.

Yeah I really liked DC stuff from 86-2010
Mainly Batman and Green Lantern (I miss Raynar though )
But yeah after the New 52 I haven't gotten into it because everything I cared about was either condensed or didn't happen. I kinda feel after Blackest Night DC was like "Ok we brought a lot of main villains back and established more lanter corps. What should we do now. RETCON"
Terrible.

[CyberCubed]

So now Batgirl was never paralyzed by Joker. So the whole timeline officially makes no sense anymore.

The least they could do is make Jason Todd and Damian dead again. No point in bringing those two back.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

So now Batgirl was never paralyzed by Joker. So the whole timeline officially makes no sense anymore.

The least they could do is make Jason Todd and Damian dead again. No point in bringing those two back.

We actually agree here. Keep the boys dead.

However,as long as Barbara is Batgirl in the current it does not matter if she was shot or not.

Why is Harely Quinn headlining a team up book? Recreating the Superman/Ali oneshot as well? What pipe is DC smoking? Then again we live in a work where some crazed person thinks a female Ghostbusters film and a wrapped series like MIB can crossover with the completely unrelated face take on the 21 Jump Street Dramedy is not a pipe dream but a marketable and successful film concept. *shrugs*

[CyberCubed]

And people wonder why I stick to the cartoons, when at least there you get a cohesive narrative and then the series comes to an end. And then they do a reboot which has no ties to the previous series as a fresh start.

Cartoons have a clear beginning and an end. Then they make a new show. Comics are just one continuous screw-up of messed up continuity and retcons.

[Spike Spiegel]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Cartoons have a clear beginning and an end. Then they make a new show. Comics are just one continuous screw-up of messed up continuity and retcons.

The best example of this I can think of is how Jean Grey was supposed to stay dead after the Dark Phoenix Saga.

We all know how that worked out...

[CyberCubed]

Indeed, and instead you can watch 3 different modern X-men cartoons:

- X-men 90's

- X-men Evolution

- Wolverine and the X-men

Which all have separate continuities and come to a close. I know the last one got canceled on a cliffhanger but you get what I mean. You don't have to sit through 20 years of retcons, they're different shows.

Same for Batman and everything else.

[myconius]

i was under the impression that they've been trying to remove Killing Joke from canon years, even though it's how Barbara became paralyzed?

but now if Killing Joke isn't actually canon then it's probably safe to say it's one of the best Elseworlds tale ever made!

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by myconius

i was under the impression that they've been trying to remove Killing Joke from canon years, even though it's how Barbara became paralyzed?

but now if Killing Joke isn't actually canon then it's probably safe to say it's one of the best Elseworlds tale ever made!

Well, I mean, it was supposed to be Elseworlds or non-canon originally.

I dunno, I have mixed feelings about it. It was absolutely a stellar standout example of "women in refrigerators", but it opened up so much character development for Babs and also opened up the role of Batgirl to become a legacy mantle, same as Robin.

So while it might have been done for simple shock value, so much great stuff came out of it. And hell, DC might as well go ahead and undo it... they haven't gotten a damn thing right in the New 52 Bat-family except for Scott Snyder. That's it.

[sdp]

The problem with comics is they refuse to move on, they're so invested with characters and are afraid to ever really change anything to make any real changes. This worked in the early days of comics but comic book time can only be kept for so long before things like what is happening happens. Comic nerds love legacy but they also love the original characters and you can't have both. Japan does this very well, so while you can't have an icon as big as the Superman/Spiderman/Batman you get new fresh faces and legacy. I understand both sides I mean if all these reboots didn't happen then I wouldn't have experienced the "original" characters in comics since they would've all been replaced long ago, however some of my favorite stuff about comics were things that changed the status quo and characters aged and seeing the future of those universes. I mean how many Robins can Bruce have while still technically being in his 30s.

I think the Earth 1 and Earth 2 idea was a great one. It gave the old characters a chance to age and move on while also giving them a clean slate in the other Earth. I loved the idea of the epic that was Crisis on infinite Earths even if it was a big mess of a crossover. What they really should've done with infinite crisis about a decade ago is re-create that, instead of this N52 crap you should've created a new multiverse again with Earth 1 being the "new 52" and starting over for the most part for new fans only taking small parts of continuity here and there and having "Earth 2" which was the now "old" DCU and now you could really take chances and have characters move on in this universe keeping fans of the old continuity happy with new stories while keeping people who only want the "classic" versions also happy with a new spin on them, its a win-win scenario instead of whatever the hell Marvel and DC are doing that just pisses off everyone.

[myconius]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Well, I mean, it was supposed to be Elseworlds or non-canon originally.

I dunno, I have mixed feelings about it. It was absolutely a stellar standout example of "women in refrigerators", but it opened up so much character development for Babs and also opened up the role of Batgirl to become a legacy mantle, same as Robin.

So while it might have been done for simple shock value, so much great stuff came out of it. And hell, DC might as well go ahead and undo it... they haven't gotten a damn thing right in the New 52 Bat-family except for Scott Snyder. That's it.

i was buying everything Batman/Gotham Related before they did the New 52 reboot, and kept up with every Gotham title afterwards.

a few of them were SO bad i dropped them early on and sold them in lots for peanuts.

the ones i kept, i recently thumbed through .... the writing is SO bad it makes me want to puke in my mouth!!

i have to admit though, Gail Simone's early run of New 52 Babs was really good! i still have those issues.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Spike Spiegel

The best example of this I can think of is how Jean Grey was supposed to stay dead after the Dark Phoenix Saga.

We all know how that worked out...

Marvel tried "fixing" that by killing her off again in Morrison's run, that stuck for a long time, then Bendis brought a teenage Jean from the past over to the present, which causes a whole load of other problems.

[myconius]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Marvel tried "fixing" that by killing her off again in Morrison's run, that stuck for a long time, then Bendis brought a teenage Jean from the past over to the present, which causes a whole load of other problems.

he'd have been better off cloning her, or just doing the ol' shameless resurrection trick!

one of the most baffling and irksome bits of comic writing i have ever read was in Judd Winick's 'Batman Under the Hood'.

Jason Todd has mysteriously risen from the grave, and Batman visits bot Superman & Oliver Queen to ask them what it was like coming back from the dead.

and the actual explanation of how Jason came back .... Superboy trapped in some other dimension, punching a big pink glowey forcefield???
first time reading i was like - "HUBBA WHAAAAAA???????"

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

So the whole timeline officially makes no sense anymore.

That's how I think of comic books from the big two, and that's why I can not get into them.

Originally Posted by myconius

Jason Todd has mysteriously risen from the grave, and Batman visits bot Superman & Oliver Queen to ask them what it was like coming back from the dead.

and the actual explanation of how Jason came back .... Superboy trapped in some other dimension, punching a big pink glowey forcefield???
first time reading i was like - "HUBBA WHAAAAAA???????"

All of my "yes!!".
I found the whole thing so funny and nonsensical.

[myconius]

Originally Posted by Sumac

That's how I think of comic books from the big two, and that's why I can not get into them.


All of my "yes!!".
I found the whole thing so funny and nonsensical.

yeah, i REEEEEALLY had NO clue what the heck that Superboy mumbo jumbo was all about???
i STILL don't!!!

it's so true about DC and Marvel!! they shuffle through SO many writers like musical chairs!!!
how could they POSSIBLY keep their stories straight???

as soon as a creative team is done with an arc or two, editorial yanks them off and tosses them onto another title! (or just kicks them to the curb?)

it's not at all about personal creativity for them.
they're dealing with established characters that have been around for years, and every new writer wants to "LEAVE THEIR MARK" on the character.
...and that's usually never a good thing!!!!

and i think one of the WORST mistakes they make is when they put writer's on a character that know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING bout the character they are writing, and could probably give a CRAP either!!!!
that where horrific turds like 'Batman Cult' get written!!

sorry! i didn't mean to ramble on like that!
it's just that i've seen favorite characters from BOTH big companies get doggie dumped ALL over, so it's can be a touchy subject.

that's why it's such a relief when you get a hold of a good creator owned independent comic that the writer was truly inspired, and had a story they wanted to tell!
not just some clock puncher merely going through the motions to get it done and over with.

[Sumac]

There, there.
I don't really understand why its happening: in theory editors should look over writing process and order writers not to mess too much with established characters, but in reality, nobody gives a **** and everyone do whatever they want.

I understand that some writers want to tell good stories, which could not fit into present continuity, but that what Elseworlds / What Ifs are for. Ruining the whole continuity only because somebody has different ideas of how things should be, is a bad idea.

[CyberCubed]

I just wish the whole comic book industry would crash and burn.

[myconius]

if the big comic companies perish then so will all the little independent ones as well.

and what a dull world it'd be then.

[sdp]

The industry crashed and burned nearly two decades ago, it now has a diminishing niche market that will continue to get smaller overtime. I do think eventually DC and Marvel will stop making comics but not for many years but I can see them in just a decade only having a handful of titles instead of all the ones they have now since they just make more money on TV shows and movies.

Smaller companies will likely never go away, they go for a niche audience and that's enough for them to survive. Now comics will likely never be as big as they were, to me they missed the chance with digital. They should've been there day 1 with tablets having comics very cheap, I'm talking like $0.99 or less per new title to get new readers. You can still charge the normal price for the niche market that buys physical but you get new readers online, tons of them. They've kind of gone that direction very slowly but its too little too late.