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Old 11-13-2019, 03:14 AM   #441
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Originally Posted by Wildcat View Post
See now you’re just twisting it to come off as Agenda fueled.

The trailer shows him killing border guards because they’re clearly trying to stop him from attacking or whatever. No terminator has just obliterated everyone in their sight just because.

Besides I thought you said you liked the movie fine but it was too repetitive. Why are you seemingly changing your whole stance?
Rewatch the movie. Almost none of the Border Patrol people are even trying to fight the Rev9. All we see is him cutting through them in wide shots in which we see the captives flowing by them equally abrasively and yet the Rev9 seems to know exactly who to stab through. Somehow.

I haven't changed my stance. I was clear I didn't like it.
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Old 11-13-2019, 04:08 AM   #442
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After he says ďmy whole body is a weaponĒ he walks through the metal detector that beeps and says ďsorryĒ to next guy. Then it cuts to people running off (detainees I guess) and heís walking in the opposite direction of everyone else and kills the guards passing by and then others pile onto him.

Even without seeing the movie Iím guessing the Rev9 or Sarah/T800 caused a diversion because then we see it fighting Mackenzie Davis.

Theyíre by themselves in this fight which leads me to think the Rev9 killed off the guards so nobody could help her get away or be a distraction.

Unless Skynet or whatever itís called has some kind of political vendetta against the border and programs the Rev9 to kill guards as a side mission?

I donít like being sarcastic but this whole topic is just silly to me.
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Old 11-13-2019, 06:40 AM   #443
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No terminator has just obliterated everyone in their sight just because.

The massacre starts at 1:09. Arnie shot first.

Even the T-1000 killed John's foster parents, a security guard, and a guy that drove a liquid nitrogen truck. Neither of those people thought of defending themselves first.
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Old 11-13-2019, 09:27 AM   #444
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Rewatch the movie. Almost none of the Border Patrol people are even trying to fight the Rev9. All we see is him cutting through them in wide shots in which we see the captives flowing by them equally abrasively and yet the Rev9 seems to know exactly who to stab through. Somehow.
Gee, how is the Rev9 not the unintentional hero of the movie?

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Even the T-1000 killed John's foster parents, a security guard, and a guy that drove a liquid nitrogen truck. Neither of those people thought of defending themselves first.
I gotta say, I thought the ol' T-1000 still deserves credit for showing some "strategic" restrain in the film. I seem to remember the original police man he attacks for the purpose of the car (and clothes?) looks like just a KO punch to the stomach rather than an obvious kill. Also, there's his famous "get out" line to the helicopter pilot... which might have resulted in death for all practical purposes, but who am I to judge?
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Old 11-13-2019, 10:38 PM   #445
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The massacre starts at 1:09. Arnie shot first.

Even the T-1000 killed John's foster parents, a security guard, and a guy that drove a liquid nitrogen truck. Neither of those people thought of defending themselves first.
But there’s reasonable context to this scene too. It’s clearing out the place because it knows Sarah is there. He even asks first.

Didn’t the T1000 kill the foster parents for the same reason? It thought John was home until he calls.

The security guard that’s getting a cup of coffee? I mean he’s cloning his appearance and hides him the closet. He can’t have a double walking around. The truck driver was actually unnecessary though.

The point is each terminator has left behind people without killing them because it’s main objective is Kyle/Sarah/John whoever it needs to eliminate. Not wasting time by going GTA on everyone.

Accusing the Rev9 scene of something it’s not over an interview question is just dumb.
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Old 11-13-2019, 11:22 PM   #446
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No, what's dumb is going through the kind of contortions that would make Plastic Man jealous simply to defend a movie that 1. Was CLEARLY trying to make a Very Specific Point, even if it's just for one scene, whether you want to believe it or not, and 2. Doesn't deserve defending in the first place.

You can have your own opinion, but not your own Facts. You can't say, "I don't think that's what they were going for" when people who worked on the movie say otherwise. Besides, in a movie full of poor choices, what's one more, anyway?

I swear, I need to start bringing pom-poms to these discussions, because this place is full of f*cking cheerleaders. Zero objectivity to be found anywhere.
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Old 11-14-2019, 12:04 AM   #447
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Contortions? Iím defending all the terminators. Like that scene in first one. Iím not gonna make some ridiculous accusation by trying to say it has a deeper message about the police.

I was born in 1984 but Iím pretty sure there was probably something then too that could have been brought up in regards to it...if you really wanted to twist it.

If I really wanted too I could accuse a bunch of movie of a bunch of stuff from a political standpoint. Not just from this era but any time.

Itís like all those arguments in the 90s targeting video games as a cause of violence. Youíre picking a subject and then applying it whatever is easiest.

Yes they admitted to having a border scene that reflects real life and they obviously wanted the audiences to take notice....but to take it as far as to say they purposely made the Rev9 kill guards to play out a political fantasy is just absurd.
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Old 11-14-2019, 12:49 AM   #448
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No it isn't in any way "absurd". It's merely taking the information given at face value.

You REALLY mean to tell me that in a year when aside from impeachment and gun control, the ONLY other topic of merit according to mainstream media was "people in cages", the fact that an entire scene in the movie was assigned to showcasing that same topic - a topic which has NOTHING to do with Terminator, I'll remind you - and in that scene ONLY the "evil border patrol agents" got blown away and all the poor mistreated "undocumented" folk are essentially set free unharmed... You REALLY want to tell me that's a f*cking COINCIDENCE?

No, it wasn't. Forget everything else about the movie for a second. THAT scene was a deliberate choice for reasons they're not even shy about admitting. The only person saying "Nuh uh!" is you, buddy. Literally Just You.

It was a choice. For better or worse, they wanted to make a statement and include a scene of some "Big Mean B.P. Agents getting what they deserved" in hopes that it would be enjoyable and cathartic for a certain section of the audience - Which, as they've also admitted, is why White Savior John Connor and his mother needed to be pushed aside to make room for the New And Improved (read: Not White or Male) version. It seems to have backfired on them, but to repeatedly insist "No they didn't" when Jesus, yes they f*cking did only serves to make you appear to be a person in deep, deep denial about facts which you find inconvenient.

Your insistence that "NO agendas went into the making of this movie" is comical, because according to easily-confirmed factual evidence, EVERY decision that went into it was agenda-driven, from killing off John (and including an entire SCENE about apologizing for the White Male Savior trope) to the border facility scene to the fact that most of the main cast were Kick-Ass Females while Arnold's merely a sidekick and the villain, of course, is a guy (at least on the outside, since, y'know... Robots). These are CHOICES.

And I'm not even trying to get into whether they are good or bad choices. I'm simply pointing out, these things happened on purpose, for a reason. You keep saying "No, definitely not," and I'm BEGGING you to stop being so obtuse and naive because it's not cute anymore.

You can't deny facts because they don't support your personal wishful thinking. Several things in this movie are explicitly, unapologetically agenda-driven. Whether that's a good or bad thing is up to each individual viewer. But it's reality. Like it or not, it is what it is. "I don't think so" isn't in any way a persuasive expression of opinion, and you do it an awful lot.

At this point, I half-expect you to tell me that the Ghostbusters fiasco a few years ago wasn't all about "sticking it to dudes because Yay Feminism", when anyone who actually watched it can see that's exactly what the point of it was. Sometimes people make bad decisions for stupid and petty reasons, and sometimes it ruins a movie. You don't have to like it - I certainly don't like it - but it DOES happen, and it's not at all hard to tell.
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Old 11-14-2019, 01:00 AM   #449
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All of that is legit, Leo.

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After he says “my whole body is a weapon” he walks through the metal detector that beeps and says “sorry” to next guy. Then it cuts to people running off (detainees I guess) and he’s walking in the opposite direction of everyone else and kills the guards passing by and then others pile onto him.
You're missing the "and then gives a big grin to the camera" before he knows the slaughter of them is about to start.

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Contortions? I’m defending all the terminators. Like that scene in first one. I’m not gonna make some ridiculous accusation by trying to say it has a deeper message about the police.
No, but if there was particular ragings against the police in 1984 (like, all over all the news of the time, 24/7) and James Cameron and Arnold were taking interviews on the red carpet talking about, "The police are really terrible lately, it's a very sad situation at the police stations these days" then that should probably give pause, given they just made a movie about a whole police station being massacred.

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Yes they admitted to having a border scene that reflects real life and they obviously wanted the audiences to take notice....but to take it as far as to say they purposely made the Rev9 kill guards to play out a political fantasy is just absurd.
Even though him slicing through Border Patrol agents is like at the forefront of all of the marketing? Just about all the trailers and TV spots (the ones that aren't just about Grace or whatever), especially the red band ones, they shove that stuff to the forefront.

Not that I'm saying Miller or anyone at that level probably had a hand in the marketing (that's whole other people and a whole other beast, though certainly one signed off on by the distributor... our friends at Paramount/Viacom, in this case)... but if that's the way they want to "push" the movie, that's very clearly playing off of today's... climate. i.e., the people screaming at the TVs and Twitter about the cages and all of that.
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Old 11-14-2019, 01:23 AM   #450
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@Leo656 and Andrew NDB

Actually I could see replacing John Connor as kinda agenda-ish. He was setup as the hero to the entire future. It’s a bit too convenient that anyone could replace him. Which I’ve mentioned many times. Aside from Salvation everything has been repetitive.

However though there’s a massive difference between changing a hero for diversity reasons (because they’re the hero) and saying they purposely wanted to pretend kill government employees with an evil robot. That’s a horrible and over the top thing to accuse filmmakers of doing.

Even if hypothetically this was true are we now going to say that the past terminators behavior and actions were wrong? They should have just destroyed everything and everyone with no context whatsoever?

Because in some weird way...now if you don’t get killed by a terminator it means the filmmakers are secretly telling us who deserves to live? That’s just mind boggling logic.
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Old 11-14-2019, 02:14 AM   #451
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I gotta say, I thought the ol' T-1000 still deserves credit for showing some "strategic" restrain in the film. I seem to remember the original police man he attacks for the purpose of the car (and clothes?) looks like just a KO punch to the stomach rather than an obvious kill. Also, there's his famous "get out" line to the helicopter pilot... which might have resulted in death for all practical purposes, but who am I to judge?
That T2 T-1000 was a nice piece of work, wasn't he?

Honorable mentions in T1 deaths also include Bill Paxton's character, Sarah Conner's mom, a Tech Noir dance fanatic, and the semi-truck driver towards the end of the movie. Also, Kyle Reese.

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Old 11-14-2019, 02:25 AM   #452
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Wildcat: Believe me, filmmakers have done much, much worse than this kinda stuff. Like kill people and try and cover it up (even if it was an accident, Mr. Landis ). This kinda thing, using their "art" to try and influence people to think or feel a certain way about something "topical", is small potatoes, and in the end, mostly-harmless. It's just eyebrow-raising, and anyone who says it wasn't done on purpose is, well, simply wrong. You keep insisting it was some Happy Accident, and THAT is what's absurd when evidence AND common sense all say otherwise.

This is not the first, nor the last, movie to try and do this kind of thing. And that in and of itself is NOT necessarily a Bad Thing. It just doesn't make sense for THIS kind of film, and as such it stands out like a sore thumb to the point of being abrasive. That's the long and the short of it.
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Old 11-14-2019, 03:22 AM   #453
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I can see when things seem PC. Naturally you notice things. Generally it does not bother me and in the case of movies I always try to view them on their own merits and not what might be behind it.

It just seems so much is criticized for some reason that it doesn’t matter what the characters happen to do or be about. Fault will be found.

The only thing I thought was absurd was saying filmmakers purposely make villains kill off certain people to play out a fantasy. I mean it insinuates they would like to kill people in real life.

Edit: just read about the Landis story. Never knew about that. It’s awful.
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Old 11-14-2019, 04:10 AM   #454
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Isn't it, though? Just horrible. BUT, he does seem like, generally, a really nice guy and I'm quite certain he feels horrible about it. I mean, yeah, he kinda had it buried to try and keep his career alive, but... wouldn't anyone? Let's be reasonable. I'm sure he's not a ghoul, it probably bothers him a lot, like all the time. But you still kinda gotta live your own life, y'know? But some people feel very strongly about it, still. I just bring it up because, y'know, Sh*t Happens.

And to clarify, I never insinuated the filmmakers were "playing out a fantasy" or enticing the audience to do so. Heavens, no. That would be ghoulish and irresponsible and I don't think they'd do that. I DO however think it was entirely done to be a cathartic, "cheer-'em-on" moment for the audience by playing on their emotions and perhaps leading them to feel a certain way in that moment. Kinda like how Thomas Wayne getting shot in "Joker", by the time it happens, made many people in the audience cheer because they threw "Kill The Rich!" on-screen at you a dozen times in bold letters for the previous two hours. Now, not everyone took it as a "feel-good" moment, BUT, a lot of people did, and the movie "allows" them to feel that way because it directs them to, either subtly or overtly. This is the same thing, from a different direction but done for the same reasons: To riff on the current political climate. "Joker" does it more overtly but it's on purpose in either case.

Which is fine, by the way. Being "topical" is a great way to get attention, but it fits far better in that movie - where it's important to the overall plot - than in this one, where it's more like cheap pandering than anything. An important but subtle distinction. In this movie's case, it's merely an example of how they spent a lot of time thinking the wrong things were important. Their choices reflect their priorities, after all.

It's just one of a lot of things they didn't need to focus on for this project, is all. Not "The Problem" by itself, but rather, indicative of "The Problem" as a whole, which is, they actually didn't know what they were doing, and just kinda threw what they could at the wall.

Sigh. I miss the "Salvation" timeline.
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Old 11-14-2019, 04:25 AM   #455
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Iím sure it bothers him. Just didnít care enough about safety measures I guess. Then he said it was the effects guy setting it off at the wrong time.

Ya I understand about be cathartic or ďsticking it to the manĒ. Whatever you want to call it.

I am very curious if either Cameron or Miller had/have any intention of doing their own Future War movie after this. Like do they care at all about showing that side of the story?
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Old 11-14-2019, 05:03 AM   #456
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One would hope, right?

I mean, part of it is what a person is mentally conditioned to, I suppose. This movie and the last one - and even T3 - were mostly about re-creating things, either scenes or feelings, that people remembered and enjoyed from T2. T2 is MOST people's most vivid frame of reference regarding the franchise - I know people who love T2 but have never seen "The Terminator" - and most people's favorite movie in the series, so it makes sense that if someone is trying to reignite interest, that would be the well they would go to.

BUT - and people have heard me say this many times about many, many things - I learned about "Terminator" from comic books, specifically the NOW-published ones in the late-1980s, all of which were very interesting and some of which had some truly wonderful artwork (including the first published work of the legendary Alex Ross, on "The Burning Earth"). I only had a couple, but I used to see the ads for them everywhere. That's how I first knew of Terminator. Those stories were set in the future, right in the middle of The War, and full of things we only got glimpses of in T1 and T2. So that's what I've always looked forward most fondly to eventually seeing. At this point, everything else feels like a preamble to what should be, by now, a much bigger story that they've simply held back on delivering for one reason or other. Instead, they repeat the same plot; "Evil AI sends killer robots back to our present to kill 'Someone'." 5 out of 6 movies have that exact plot; that's kind of more than a little ridiculous, and annoying. Like Jon Bon Jovi said: "It's all the same, only the names'll change."

And that's a sad bit of wasted potential, any way one looks at it.
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Old 11-14-2019, 03:00 PM   #457
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My first Terminator was the first movie, so this is my frame of reference to what franchise can be.
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Old 11-15-2019, 07:34 AM   #458
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You guys are all whiners. This was the most anti-immigration movie I've ever seen.

We have TWO time immigrants who enter the US illegally. One of whom radicalizes two Americans. They then proceed to illustrate just how terrifying Latinx people are by freeing all their criminal compatriots and murdering a bunch of border guards. Finally, they 9/11 the Hoover Dam with a C-5 they stole and have an all out immigrant brawl that probably tanked some businesses in Las Vegas because it took out a couple of the turbines. Also, one Dani kills her protector then goes off to learn how to kill better. . . in the US. Illegally.

ALL of this reflects poorly on immigrants. I don't know what you guys want.
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Old 11-15-2019, 12:49 PM   #459
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Nice to see Voltron has a sense of humor.



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