Splinter as a rat or as Hamato Yoshi?

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

It doesn't have to "tell". It just fuses the DNA of the base creature with whatever DNA was left by the last organic/living thing it came in contact with. Which is how Snakeweed(in Nick), Baxter(any mutant version), or even the "Mootagen Monster" (as Mikey dubbed it) from the OT were all created. (The last one simply being a severely mutated "super-cow".) In theory, ANY two(or more) creatures that come in contact with each other could be mutated to a hybrid form. Like the cat/dog mix Indigo suggested, or something more bizarre like a mix of human, lion and scorpion(manticore), or cat and hawk (small griffon?), or any other combination one could think of. The fun part is that with the "last creature in contact", it doesn't even need to be one that is noticable- it could be dog hairs on your clothes counting as "contact"! (And Ice Cream Kitty is easy to explain- ice cream is made from frozen cream, which has lots of bacteria and enzymes from the milk....)

But, that still means it somehow separates the DNA of the most recent other creature one touched from the DNA of other creatures that one also touched not that long ago. That's the reason they gave why FW Splinter was a human/rat hybrid instead of a human/turtle hybrid or a 3-way rat/human/turtle hybrid. "Yoshi had most recently been with...the rats!"

To be honest, the "rat learning ninjutsu" thing doesn't bother me that much. I never saw it as Splinter seeing Yoshi practice his Taijutsu moves a couple of times and magically becoming a master. I always imagined that his cage was in the dojo and Splinter was constantly watching Yoshi train, and spar, and meditate (and teach students once he fled to America and started his martial arts school). And, once he mutated it all made sense to him. He learned to talk from remembering a lifetime of hearing Yoshi and Tang Shen and everyone else talk. Filled in the blanks with the various ninjutsu and eastern sorcery books that he's established to have (no idea how he learned to read, maybe he used to sit on Yoshi's shoulder while he was reading books and Yoshi, thinking it was cute, would start reading out loud). And, honed his skills by going on solo missions while the Turtles were growing up, like his psychic battle with Foot mystics in Tales Vol.2 Issue #2, (Vol.1 Issue#9 would have probably been a solo mission if Splinter didn't have to lend his body to the dying grandfather).

Just as preposterous? sure! But, there's really no way for the TMNT and Splinter to come into being that isn't. It's really just personal taste.

If anything busts the Mirage origin, though. It's that rats don't have much of a life-span. But, that kind of negates Splinter's existence as a character all together, so I'm cool with them exercising a little artistic license regarding that and rats in the TMNT multiverse living as long as humans.

An interesting question though, is "What was Yoshi like?" We're used to thinking of Yoshi as being similar to Splinter because of the versions where they're the same character, but in the universes where they aren't, Yoshi could have had a very different personality.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

It's not so much "most recent" as what has left traces behind (that are still there). If Yoshi had handled the turtles without washing up, he very well COULD have become a hybrid. But all he had recent contact with (according to the story) was the rats. The turtles had only had contact with him. For all we know, his "contact" with the rats could have been rat hairs left behind on his kimono after he cleaned up from playing with the turtles.

As for the rat in a cage origin, the biggest problem with it is that a rat simply wouldn't have any interest or understanding of ANY of that. Martial arts are a complex and time-consuming discipline that takes YEARS to learn, and a rat has neither the time in lifespan nor the interest in the activity itself to bother paying much attention to it. It would be meaningless activity of its human owner that it AT BEST might watch once in a while for a few minutes out of curiosity or to determine if it is being threatened, but would quickly lose interest as it is an activity that has nothing to do with the rat's own needs.

One has to take into account that Splinter (at that point) would still think and act AS A RAT. He does not gain any of the thought processes or interests of a human until AFTER he is mutated, nor would he have enough long-term memory to retain all that knowledge until after he was mutated. So he basically COULD NOT LEARN it at all. Physically OR mentally. Rats are smart as animals go, but not THAT smart- nor do they particularly care about human affairs that do not directly concern or involve them.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

One has to take into account that Splinter (at that point) would still think and act AS A RAT. He does not gain any of the thought processes or interests of a human until AFTER he is mutated, nor would he have enough long-term memory to retain all that knowledge until after he was mutated. So he basically COULD NOT LEARN it at all. Physically OR mentally. Rats are smart as animals go, but not THAT smart- nor do they particularly care about human affairs that do not directly concern or involve them.

I totally agree, I remember in the first TMNT movie seeing the flashback of Splinter as a pet rat copying his master and it just seemed a little too implausible. Maybe because it was in live action it highlights this lack of logic more.

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

They pretty distinctly say on the show that it's whichever animal one has most recently been with. And, to me it just makes more sense for a living creature with a brain (even if he is "just" a rat) to learn something than for mindless inanimate ooze to "know" something. I'm not saying it made sense to him until after he was mutated, though. But, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. Both of our opinions are equally valid is all I'm trying to say here.

From a storytelling perspective (which to me is much more important) I prefer to have a fallen Master Yoshi to avenge and remember as it adds a nice (and sometimes not-so-nice) element to Splinter's character, and sets up a "cycle of revenge" story. But, the FW show and NES game did some neat things with the "will I ever be human again?" angle.

I think Nickelodeon Splinter strikes a nice balance by having Splinter be Yoshi, but bringing Tang Shen back into the mix as the lost loved one. And, IDW Splinter may have the best origin yet having been both Yoshi *and* an ordinary rat. But, out of the two "classic" takes on Splinter's origin I personally prefer the Mirage version for the reasons stated above, but that's just me.

[Utrommaniac]

Plus, the IDW Splinter gives Splinter a reason to care about human activities as a rat - because of the pshychotropic serum making his past human life reawaken and recognize human activities as something to pay attention to.

TMNT might have some silly concepts, but for the most part, it tries to remember that animals are just animals before they are mutated, which is why Splinter taking interest in martial arts as an ordinary rat is implausible.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Tetsu Deinonychus

They pretty distinctly say on the show that it's whichever animal one has most recently been with. And, to me it just makes more sense for a living creature with a brain (even if he is "just" a rat) to learn something than for mindless inanimate ooze to "know" something. I'm not saying it made sense to him until after he was mutated, though. But, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. Both of our opinions are equally valid is all I'm trying to say here.

From a storytelling perspective (which to me is much more important) I prefer to have a fallen Master Yoshi to avenge and remember as it adds a nice (and sometimes not-so-nice) element to Splinter's character, and sets up a "cycle of revenge" story. But, the FW show and NES game did some neat things with the "will I ever be human again?" angle.

I think Nickelodeon Splinter strikes a nice balance by having Splinter be Yoshi, but bringing Tang Shen back into the mix as the lost loved one. And, IDW Splinter may have the best origin yet having been both Yoshi *and* an ordinary rat. But, out of the two "classic" takes on Splinter's origin I personally prefer the Mirage version for the reasons stated above, but that's just me.

I think you're taking that line way too literally. Even as a kid I understood that it simply meant "the animals he had most recently had physical contact with". In other words, the rats had left behind bits of fur or whatever on him. Playing with turtles without washing afterward is known to cause salmonella so Yoshi would no doubt have done so. Its much harder to get rat hair off one's clothes though. Thus even if he had washed up there could still be some left. So it makes perfect sense.

As for the mutagen it doesn't have to "KNOW" anything. It is a chemical gene-splicing catalyst and nothing more. It just fuses whatever DNA is present- basically a case of instant mass genetic recombination. It happens spontaneously even IRL with frogs living in chemically polluted water. They come our with missing, deformed or extra limbs, don't fully metamorphose from the tadpole state, or develop other unusual traits. All it takes is the right circumstances to mutate a living creature. Krang apparently had the "ultimate" recipe for instant gene-splicing!

I actually agree with you that Splinter as Yoshi makes more sense, and Nick's version combines the two origins well. However, I also think that you missed a major detail of the OT origin's story, in that it was STILL basically a story of revenge. Yoshi himself would have just as much (actually even more) reason to seek vengeance (or perhaps justice in his eyes) for what was done to him as a rat that was merely his pet would. Think about it- the feud beteew him and Shredder started because Saki plotted to have Yoshi expelled from the Foot, then came after him to kill him but ended up mutating him into a rat instead. Is Splinter supposed to just lie down and take it without some kind of action? Would YOU? (Zen ninja master or not, he had a pouch with evidence of Saki's treason against the Foot so clearly he intended to do SOMETHING.) Yoshi doesn't even have to ever be human again to make it an interesting storyline.

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Playing with turtles without washing afterward is known to cause salmonella so Yoshi would no doubt have done so.

He washed up after handling those filthy turtles but not after petting those nice clean sewer rats? J/K

Also, I think killing somebody you're close to is worse that stealing your job, but fair point that he has a reason to strike back against Shredder either way.

We're never going to agree on this subject, but isn't that okay. I think it's more fun that way.

One thing I like about the versions where he was a rat all along is how he's more of a morally grey "trickster mentor", which I think is very interesting. While the versions where he was Yoshi himself have him more distinctly "good" and direct.