Star Wars Episode 8

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I mean think about it in real life terms. A person in their 30's is obviously a lot different than someone when they're only 18. People mature, grow up, or in this case...become evil and competent. Remember Anakin in the prequels was basically an older teen.

I think about real life terms and in real life whiny and easily manipulated fools become losers, no matter how talented they are, not badass charismatic generals who can successfully lead people.

This is the problem, with Anakin - if Episodes 2 and 3 had his character any of those qualities, I would have believed it. As is stands - there is nothing. Surprisingly enough, Anakin from Episode 1, no matter how much Marty Sue he arguably was, was actually much closer to what I am talking about.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Sumac

I think about real life terms and in real life whiny and easily manipulated fools become losers, no matter how talented they are, not badass charismatic generals who can successfully lead people..

Darth Vader was a glorified lackey for Emperor Palpatine in his entire run. And you're wrong, most teenagers are whiny, immature and everyone matures once they become adults.

[Roseangelo]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Darth Vader was a glorified lackey for Emperor Palpatine in his entire run. And you're wrong, most teenagers are whiny, immature and everyone matures once they become adults.

[ProactiveMan]

There is something different about the look of this that I can’t put my finger on. The cinematography seems a little off. Might just be the trailer, but there’s something going on there.

I hope they haven’t given too much away in that trailer either. The ep.7 previews felt more vague on plot points, which I personally prefer. It’s Star Wars; people will go to see it even if the trailer is just Chewie sitting on a sun lounge for three minutes.

Otherwise, it looks pretty cool. Rey’s doing cool things, Phasma is ambulant, Luke is a hobo... can’t wait to see it.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

Originally Posted by ProactiveMan

There is something different about the look of this that I can’t put my finger on. The cinematography seems a little off. Might just be the trailer, but there’s something going on there.

The shots are not composed as well as previous SW films - everything feels like it's too big for the frame. That was my gut feeling watching as well.

[sdp]

My significant other had never seen a Star Wars movie and Episode VII was her first, she was surprised and liked how the hero was a girl.

I personally love the idea of Rey being the main Jedi and hero, but if we take a look at the movie she is literally the definition of Mary Sue so I think that hurts her as a feminist icon though I'm sure she is considered one. She was just "good" at everything, if we take a look at Luke he had to earn everything and that's who she was trying to mimic.

I don't think Finn will be a Jedi and if he does he won't be replacing Rey, just imagine all the backlash it would get for having a "man" replace a woman as the main hero after teasing that Rey would be the hero. Finn is awesome though and doesn't need to be a Jedi, but I'd love both Rey and Finn being Jedi. I do have a black friend who hates Finn and feels that it's prejudice that Finn was treated the way he was in TFA.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Darth Vader was a glorified lackey for Emperor Palpatine in his entire run. And you're wrong, most teenagers are whiny, immature and everyone matures once they become adults.

I am sorry, but your personal issues with your teenagehood are not necessarily normal for all other people.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Sumac

I am sorry, but your personal issues with your teenagehood are not necessarily normal for all other people.

Your entire argument was that Darth Vader can't be competent because Anakin was a whiny teenager. I then told you we had a 17-18 year timeskip from when we saw Anakin in Episode 3 to Darth Vader in Episode 4. You do realize that's two decades, right?

Darth Vader had 17+ years working exclusively for the Emperor while his Anakin years were a teenager. Are you seriously saying you don't think people change form their teenage years to adult years? I mean I find it bizarre I even have to say this, and you're talking about a character also changed by the dark side on top of that.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Your entire argument was that Darth Vader can't be competent because Anakin was a whiny teenager.

Please, read again what I've written. Preferably with your eyes, not your ass.

My entire argument, that Anakin, as he was portrayed in Ep 2 & 3, has not even a single charismatic and leader-like bone in his body. Nothing.
I would be cool with him being emotional, if at the same time he had shown at least some of the characteristics of a competent leader in the movies. But he has shown absolutely nothing like that. He was more similar to what I've expected from young Vader, back in Episode 1.

[Vegita-San]

yep. they fixed ALOT of what was wrong with vader in the animated series.
that proves lucas lead star wars can be good, so long as someone keeps lucas in check with some of his ideas.

[sdp]

Exactly, I think many but not most Star Wars fans realize this, it's only when Lucas has complete control that thing go bad.

Lucas gets a lot of hate but Lucas is Star Wars, he just needs his ideas to be polished by other people along the way.

Star Wars without Lucas however is just what people think Star Wars is i.e. wanking to the OT.

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

that proves lucas lead star wars can be good, so long as someone keeps lucas in check with some of his ideas.

[Spike Spiegel]

Originally Posted by sdp

I'd love both Rey and Finn being Jedi. I do have a black friend who hates Finn and feels that it's prejudice that Finn was treated the way he was in TFA.

The marketing for VII does seem like a bait-and-switch, in retrospect. You might have thought Finn was going to be the main hero, but that was certainly not the case...

I also never liked the fact that Finn's name is given to him, and you could draw a lot of comparisons between his situation (being taken as a child, etc.) and slavery. It's somewhat nit-picky and doesn't make me hate the movie, but it's definitely there.

The trailer for VIII does seem to indicate that he will actually have something to do in this story.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Sumac

Please, read again what I've written. Preferably with your eyes, not your ass.

Given the sheer mass of bans on the forum lately, I don't why you're purposely flame-baiting.

My entire argument, that Anakin, as he was portrayed in Ep 2 & 3, has not even a single charismatic and leader-like bone in his body. Nothing.
I would be cool with him being emotional, if at the same time he had shown at least some of the characteristics of a competent leader in the movies. But he has shown absolutely nothing like that. He was more similar to what I've expected from young Vader, back in Episode 1.

I understand this, but Anakin was never intended to be a charismatic leader in the prequel trilogy. For most of it he's Obi-wan's apprentice to begin with, even when he started making his own choices Obi-wan kept reprimanded him telling him not to challenge the Jedi Council and that "his time will come." Anakin wanted to become a master, and he along with Mace Windu kept reminding him of his place.

And as I'm saying, 17 years is enough to change a man controlled by the dark side into a formidable leader. Luke was just born a baby in Episode 3, in Episode 4 he's around 17 I believe, so there's a 17 year timeskip there. 17 years of working for the dark side would obviously change a man.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Given the sheer mass of bans on the forum lately, I don't why you're purposely flame-baiting.

It's not my problem that you can not read and understand what is written.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I understand this, but Anakin was never intended to be a charismatic leader in the prequel trilogy.

Even so, he should had some kind of leader-like bone. Some seeds of being great leader. Otherwise, his transformation into Vader doesn't make sense and comes out of nowhere.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

And as I'm saying, 17 years is enough to change a man controlled by the dark side into a formidable leader. Luke was just born a baby in Episode 3, in Episode 4 he's around 17 I believe, so there's a 17 year timeskip there. 17 years of working for the dark side would obviously change a man.

Change is one thing.
Acquiring qualities that never was hinted before - is another.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

Originally Posted by Sumac

Even so, he should had some kind of leader-like bone. Some seeds of being great leader. Otherwise, his transformation into Vader doesn't make sense and comes out of nowhere.

He is an incredibly powerful Force wielder, right-hand man of the Emperor, who leads an army of men whose sole purpose in life is to serve the Empire. He doesn't need to inspire men to join him, he's got an army ready to go. He leads by fear and naked authority, not by inspiring the troops. Even in the original SW film, Vader doesn't have any charisma or motivational style by which he commands, he just rules over the Imperial army because he is their authority. Where in the OT do you see these "great leader" qualities in Vader?

[Cure]

Originally Posted by TheSkeletonMan939

He is an incredibly powerful Force wielder, right-hand man of the Emperor, who leads an army of men whose sole purpose in life is to serve the Empire. He doesn't need to inspire men to join him, he's got an army ready to go. He leads by fear and naked authority, not by inspiring the troops. Even in the original SW film, Vader doesn't have any charisma or motivational style by which he commands, he just rules over the Imperial army because he is their authority. Where in the OT do you see these "great leader" qualities in Vader?

Yeah, I'm with you and to a lesser extent, CyberCubed. It's entirely plausible for Anakin to become Vader. If anything, Vader force choking that dude can be considered kind of whiny. Tarkin even had to be like "yo, chill"!

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by TheSkeletonMan939

Where in the OT do you see these "great leader" qualities in Vader?

Dunno how you see Vader in OT, but I saw him as charismatic leader commanding his troops through fear and respect (not in the least because he was not shying away from taking part in battles himself). It might not necessarily come through the storytelling, but through his mannerism and performance.
Something that was thoroughly lacking in Anakin portrayal and Ep 2 & 3. On the other hand, almost everyone performance was lacking in the Prequels.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

What charisma does Vader have? Someone with charisma has a winning personality, like "wow, I want to be friends with that guy!" The Imperial officers either have open distaste for him ("your sad devotion to that ancient religion...") or are greatly intimidated by him (Jerjerrod in RotJ) or really don't say anything at all. Vader will publicly choke you to death if you mess up. The closest thing to a relationship he has to any of the Imperial officers is Tarkin, who treats Vader like a dog.

This is why people think Boba Fett is so cool - he talks up to Vader and almost converses with him like a partner. Vader has no partners in the Empire, only tools.

If you want charisma, look at Errol Flynn's Robin Hood, not Darth effing Vader.

[Spike Spiegel]

Vader in the Disney-era OT comics is one scary dude.

Some characters try to befriend him/make him an ally, but his lack of trust in anyone makes it impossible for them to do so. Like TheSkeletonMan939 said, people are tools for him.

But he himself was a tool for Watto, then the Jedi, then the Sith, so maybe his behavior is a product of that.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by TheSkeletonMan939

What charisma does Vader have? Someone with charisma has a winning personality, like "wow, I want to be friends with that guy!"

Charisma means:

compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others.

It has nothing to do with "friendship". Military commander can be charismatic leader, but it doesn't mean that you want to be friends with him.

Vader, through mannerism, channels strength and assuredness. It doesn't make him "good guy".