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Old 08-07-2020, 05:33 AM   #361
newfan
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What a derail.
2012 is supposed to be mixed comedy and darker elements, when I was trying to fill the void after the show ended I found 2k3 filled the gap for me a little more, they all however feel like different toons to me, people like more than one depending on what they can enjoy about them. 2012 will always remain my favourite (unless another ever comes along and I like that more) but I liked 2k3 also.

So far as the Mikey part of the derail, as pointed out already the issues people have with the two versions are different things but I did find myself thinking 'man what a jerk' at times with 2k3, the voice used probably didn't help when it came to whining or showing but I didn't totally dislike him.

Hopefully soon we'll get more movie info and then good or bad we will back on topic

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Old 08-07-2020, 07:11 AM   #362
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Trying to defend the Nicktoon as more mature in any sense is a bit awkward considering it's the show with the Ice Cream Kitty, Muckman, Pizza Face, Sparrow Wizard, April Derp, Mutant Zits, Bigfoot crushing on Don, Dream Beavers, Skateboard Sewer Race, Wyrm, Mikey's wacky mind world, Batman 1966 homage and probably more that would this paragraph unreadable if I kept adding to it.

There is so much of that show that isn't just stupid but clearly meant to be stupid that it's hard to take anything about it seriously. When Splinter dies it doesn't hit hard, it just feels out place. What's worse is that the story of that show is not good and feels the need to repeat many of the same beats. Splinter "died" a few times before he really did and when they really did kill him off it seemed kind of hollow.

If the Nicktoon tried to be mature, it either failed to or it was mere lipservice to maturity.
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Old 08-07-2020, 01:58 PM   #363
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Trying to defend the Nicktoon as more mature in any sense is a bit awkward considering it's the show with the Ice Cream Kitty, Muckman, Pizza Face, Sparrow Wizard, April Derp, Mutant Zits, Bigfoot crushing on Don, Dream Beavers, Skateboard Sewer Race, Wyrm, Mikey's wacky mind world, Batman 1966 homage and probably more that would this paragraph unreadable if I kept adding to it.

There is so much of that show that isn't just stupid but clearly meant to be stupid that it's hard to take anything about it seriously. When Splinter dies it doesn't hit hard, it just feels out place. What's worse is that the story of that show is not good and feels the need to repeat many of the same beats. Splinter "died" a few times before he really did and when they really did kill him off it seemed kind of hollow.

If the Nicktoon tried to be mature, it either failed to or it was mere lipservice to maturity.
Yeah man.

If anyone asked me "What makes 2K3 so much more 'sophisticated' or whatever than the Nick show?", my knee-jerk response would be, "Did you even watch them?" Because it's one of those things that should just be patently obvious on its face without requiring a ton of explanation. But yeah, one of these shows has a mutant cat made out of ice cream, or something. That says it all.

Granted, I can only speak to what I've seen most often, that being the first three Seasons of 2K3 and the first Season of Nick. They both had their strengths and weaknesses, but "neutered" as it may have been 2K3 still aimed much higher and hit the mark much more often than it's Nicktoon counterpart. The latter show was hellbent on being "silly" right from the jump and that's partly why they lost me very early on.

Anyways, Rogen says what we all subliminally knew. Y'think we'll get more than 20 minutes into the movie before Mikey asks someone to pull his finger?
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Old 08-07-2020, 02:05 PM   #364
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The reason 2k3 comes off as so silly to me is because it thinks it's mature when it so clearly isn't. It's sort of painful to watch. Like someone trying to be something they're not. Whereas, the other cartoons are comfortable within their own skin.

As for which is more mature between the cartoons? Neither. That was my original argument anyway. They are all intended for younger audiences and there is nothing "mature" about them.
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Old 08-07-2020, 02:50 PM   #365
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I dunno, man. When I watched Season 1 of 2K3 recently there were almost a dozen incidents before the Season was half over where I said out loud, "Man, this is kind of heavy for a kids show. I bet they got phone calls."

This is just a general observation, but I find that people who lean heavily towards Mirage, often discount the 2K3 show for being "Mirage-Lite", therefore it's "juvenile". I, personally, don't give much of a sh*t about Mirage (comic book equivalent of Saltine crackers, in my own humble opinion) and therefore am not comparing 2K3 directly to that, other than giving them points for bothering to lean into it so much in the early goings (something more shows should do when adapting something).

I just see so many comments from people about how "mature" or "juvenile" 2K3 Is or Is Not come back to Mirage in some kind of roundabout way, or even a direct way. But if you take it as JUST a "kids show"... the early Seasons, at least, were very "dark and violent" for a kids show. Like, they got away with stuff even Batman: TAS wasn't allowed to go near. To imply otherwise isn't being fair. They got away with quite a lot with 2K3.

I mean, if a person were inclined I'm sure they could sit down and make a checklist as to whether 2K3 or the Nick show had more "serious" or "dark" moments. But if we flip it around and focus just on which show is more silly... well, c'mon, Nick. Nick is obviously a much, much sillier show; therefore 2K3 is "more mature" by default without even having to try to be. But it did try to be, and early on at least they did a good job at it.
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Old 08-07-2020, 03:54 PM   #366
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Good points. But being silly doesn't necessarily mean being less mature.
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Old 08-07-2020, 04:39 PM   #367
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The issue with the Nicktoon is that it essentially tries to create a reverse of levity in drama, create what is essentially a comedy with serious moments of drama, which does not work. If your show is primarily comedic, you expect a comedic outcome. You can have steaks but they can't be undermined by the general tone.

Imagine this:
A clown steps out of his tiny car. He slips on a banana peel onto a trampoline. The force of the trampoline launches him to the top of a building being demolishhed. He falls onto a wrecking ball and as it swings he jumps into a swimming pool where belly flops. When he gets out of the pool... He slips on anther banana peel... And this time he falls head first onto a brick wall and breaks his neck with a loud crunch. His family then holds a serious funeral for him with no comedic overtones.

That is what the Nicktoon is like to me. It doesn't work because the payoff is off-tone.
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Old 08-07-2020, 05:10 PM   #368
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Good points. But being silly doesn't necessarily mean being less mature.
Really? Huh. I mean... maybe. I guess.

I mean "Ernest Goes To Camp" is certainly more "mature", or at least heartfelt, than stuff like "Ernest Scared Stupid", sure, but at that point it's kinda splitting hairs, no?

I kinda feel like "silly" and "mature" are antithetic. Perhaps it's from upbringing; as a youngster, if I was acting below my age or otherwise being a pest, people would say, "Stop being silly. That's not very mature." The implication being that you can't be both of those things at once. Which makes sense to me.

But I mean, maybe? I don't know, I'd have to see the math.

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The issue with the Nicktoon is that it essentially tries to create a reverse of levity in drama, create what is essentially a comedy with serious moments of drama, which does not work. If your show is primarily comedic, you expect a comedic outcome. You can have steaks but they can't be undermined by the general tone.

Imagine this:
A clown steps out of his tiny car. He slips on a banana peel onto a trampoline. The force of the trampoline launches him to the top of a building being demolishhed. He falls onto a wrecking ball and as it swings he jumps into a swimming pool where belly flops. When he gets out of the pool... He slips on anther banana peel... And this time he falls head first onto a brick wall and breaks his neck with a loud crunch. His family then holds a serious funeral for him with no comedic overtones.

That is what the Nicktoon is like to me. It doesn't work because the payoff is off-tone.
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Old 08-07-2020, 05:54 PM   #369
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Well, just think of a goofy but responsible older uncle vs your brooding 13 year old cousin.

Is your cousin really more mature because he has his arms crossed in the corner while your uncle plays tag with the 5 year olds?
No, but he probably thinks he is.
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Old 08-07-2020, 06:22 PM   #370
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Interesting analogy, but I feel like sincerity of authorial intent should count for something as well, and that's something I don't feel like enough people consider when it comes to these things.

2K3 and Nick were clearly approaching the material from different directions. With 2K3, one strongly gets the sense that if they could have gotten away with it, then the show would have been entirely "played straight" with a minimum of gags or comedic elements or "toy-etic" bits. So, SO much of the first Season, especially, plays like a blatant "F*ck You" to everything that the FW cartoon was, and that may be off-putting for some but I felt that it was exactly what was necessary at that time. And you can tell that they were clearly pushing boundaries insofar as what they could "get away with" within the confines of what was ostensibly children's programming, to the point where when they did inject something "silly", it felt forced, like a begrudging concession to expectations rather than something they actually wanted to do. The comedic or toy-potential bits felt like they were executed through gritted teeth; "Well, we ARE a kids show, after all..." But it obviously wasn't what they wanted to be the focus. At least the early Seasons.

Conversely, the Nick show, as neatoman pointed out, generally operated on the assumption that if you spent ten minutes on someone getting hit by pies, but then suddenly cut someone's head off, then things somehow tonally balance out. Their attempts at being more serious came off as insincere and even pandering. "Well, we WANT to just be a straight comedy, but we know there's a few older TMNT fans who'll whine if we don't put SOME more serious content in there."

It really felt like the execution and intent from the two shows came from entire polar opposite perspectives. Like 2K3 would have been serious all the time if they were allowed, and Nick would have been a straight comedy if they were allowed. Consequently, the humor in 2K3 felt forced, and the "serious" bits in the Nick show felt forced. Because in either case those elements weren't in there by design, rather by the knowledge that to some degree one must cater to what's expected.

The "mature" bits of 2K3 felt sincere to me. The ones in the Nick show did not. They felt very, very forced and even out of place at times. So I don't feel like 2K3 is the "pouty teen" in the analogy; if anything, the Nick show was occasionally that. It occasionally put on a front that was anything but true to its real values.

Seeing how the films turned out, as well as "Rise", it is very obvious to me that Nick Corporate simply wants this franchise to be 100% Comedy, and that they only lean into anything more "mature" because they have to occasionally pretend to care about the older fans. But it's not what they WANT to do.
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Old 08-07-2020, 07:49 PM   #371
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Interesting analogy, but I feel like sincerity of authorial intent should count for something as well, and that's something I don't feel like enough people consider when it comes to these things.

2K3 and Nick were clearly approaching the material from different directions. With 2K3, one strongly gets the sense that if they could have gotten away with it, then the show would have been entirely "played straight" with a minimum of gags or comedic elements or "toy-etic" bits. So, SO much of the first Season, especially, plays like a blatant "F*ck You" to everything that the FW cartoon was, and that may be off-putting for some but I felt that it was exactly what was necessary at that time. And you can tell that they were clearly pushing boundaries insofar as what they could "get away with" within the confines of what was ostensibly children's programming, to the point where when they did inject something "silly", it felt forced, like a begrudging concession to expectations rather than something they actually wanted to do. The comedic or toy-potential bits felt like they were executed through gritted teeth; "Well, we ARE a kids show, after all..." But it obviously wasn't what they wanted to be the focus. At least the early Seasons.

Conversely, the Nick show, as neatoman pointed out, generally operated on the assumption that if you spent ten minutes on someone getting hit by pies, but then suddenly cut someone's head off, then things somehow tonally balance out. Their attempts at being more serious came off as insincere and even pandering. "Well, we WANT to just be a straight comedy, but we know there's a few older TMNT fans who'll whine if we don't put SOME more serious content in there."

It really felt like the execution and intent from the two shows came from entire polar opposite perspectives. Like 2K3 would have been serious all the time if they were allowed, and Nick would have been a straight comedy if they were allowed. Consequently, the humor in 2K3 felt forced, and the "serious" bits in the Nick show felt forced. Because in either case those elements weren't in there by design, rather by the knowledge that to some degree one must cater to what's expected.

The "mature" bits of 2K3 felt sincere to me. The ones in the Nick show did not. They felt very, very forced and even out of place at times. So I don't feel like 2K3 is the "pouty teen" in the analogy; if anything, the Nick show was occasionally that. It occasionally put on a front that was anything but true to its real values.

Seeing how the films turned out, as well as "Rise", it is very obvious to me that Nick Corporate simply wants this franchise to be 100% Comedy, and that they only lean into anything more "mature" because they have to occasionally pretend to care about the older fans. But it's not what they WANT to do.
I don't know, episodes such as "Vengeance is mine", "Invasion" and "Return to New York city" DO have comedic moments but certainly don't paint the 2012 series as being just a humor for the sake of humor series as you guys describe it.

Heck, take a look at the season two opener "The Mutation situation" there was very little to laugh about in that episode.
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Old 08-07-2020, 08:07 PM   #372
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I don't know, episodes such as "Vengeance is mine", "Invasion" and "Return to New York city" DO have comedic moments but certainly don't paint the 2012 series as being just a humor for the sake of humor series as you guys describe it.

Heck, take a look at the season two opener "The Mutation situation" there was very little to laugh about in that episode.
I don't think you understand the argument.
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Old 08-07-2020, 08:21 PM   #373
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I don't think you understand the argument.
You're probably right, It's four in the morning here and I can't sleep with the heatwave going on.

I'll just slip back into the sewers...
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