The Technodrome Forums

Go Back   The Technodrome Forums > General Forums > General Discussion > Everything Else

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-05-2016, 09:37 PM   #61
Jester
Rat-faced Dude-guy
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 25,193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowler View Post
Surprised you didn't lock this thread lol
Outside my jurisdiction...
__________________

"Clearly, you're Ninja Turtling incorrectly." - Leo656
Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2016, 09:44 PM   #62
Katie
Just...way too serious.
 
Katie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: purgatory
Posts: 3,524
I was brought up that it was very impolite to discuss religion.

If people ask me, l'm a Christian (Protestant), but I have been to worship with Catholics, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindu, and Jews. The real truth is in the commonalities of all beliefs, not in one specific one.

I strongly believe in a higher power based on very personal experiences. I am not a fundamentalist, I do not believe the Bible is literal, and the sciences are my favorite hobbies. Evolution is real.

Mostly, though, I believe in free will and people are gonna believe whatever they believe. I won't discuss mine unless asked.
__________________
Katie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2016, 10:14 PM   #63
Commenter 42
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToTheNines View Post
Have I told you lately, that nothing else matters?

Have I?

Well then...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie View Post
the sciences are my favorite hobbies. Evolution is real.

Mostly, though, I believe in free will and people are gonna believe whatever they believe. I won't discuss mine unless asked.

Last edited by Commenter 42; 08-05-2016 at 10:19 PM.
Commenter 42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2016, 12:21 AM   #64
FredWolfLeonardo
Big Blue Boy Scout
 
FredWolfLeonardo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: New Bark Town
Posts: 2,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commenter 42 View Post
I also believe in free will like Katie, and I think it supports the existence of a higher power, or atleast a non-physical one whom we can connect to via our subjective experience as Katie described, having had personal experiences that strengthen her faith.

Personally, I see the subjective experience that we posses, like thoughts, feelings, emotions and ideas, to support the idea of a higher power who transcends the natural world due to his non physical nature, just like our minds. We might be able to cut up brains or witness electrical signals pulse throughout neurons, but we can't directly see the image of say, a lion that i have thought up in my mind, no matter where we look in the brain, its of a completely different realm which is not the physical world.

Then again, people are bound to have disagreements over my biases, and what I said might be subject to criticism and scrutiny, but thats ok, This is how we learn and grow, through respectful discussion and the sharing of worldviews

Last edited by FredWolfLeonardo; 08-06-2016 at 12:26 AM.
FredWolfLeonardo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2016, 01:41 AM   #65
Commenter 42
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo View Post
...
Except free will doesn't exist. We know it doesn't. That was an exerpt from a longer discussion, which can be found here.



It's not my assertion, or my argument that free will doesn't exist; it's a proven fact, like gravity.

We still talk as though it does exist however, like god, and democracy. It's a part of our ideology.
These are comforts to our mind, things we feel we need to believe in. It's like Voltaire said, "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."

Voltaire, of course was a believer, but even he recognized our desires trump rational thought.
Commenter 42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2016, 02:33 AM   #66
FredWolfLeonardo
Big Blue Boy Scout
 
FredWolfLeonardo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: New Bark Town
Posts: 2,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commenter 42 View Post
Except free will doesn't exist. We know it doesn't. That was an exerpt from a longer discussion, which can be found here.

It's not my assertion, or my argument that free will doesn't exist; it's a proven fact, like gravity.
I respectfully disagree.

The way I see it, there is no way of measuring one's subjective experience in the same way that we study the perceived physical world. Lets say we study the brain in order to determine whether free will exists or not.

The problem however that we run into is that no matter how much we try and correlate the firing of neurons to our subjective experience, correlation does not ultimately imply causation.

Even if our subjective experience is the result of the brain, it is not the brain itself. I am imagining a bluebird flying across a beautiful field of sunflowers, can scientists ever find this image anywhere in my brain?

They might be able to see neurons firing up, but is the image itself anywhere to be found in the non-physical form that I see it to be? No, because the image is not physical in any way (just like God), and it is outside the realm of science, which is solely considered with studying the physical world we all observe, nothing less, nothing more.

Similarly, saying that God is not real because of a lack of physical evidence in my opinion is akin to saying that ideas don't exist just because they can't be found in physical form. By this logic too, why would anyone think that others with subjective experiences like ours even exist? You can't physically see anyone else's subjective experience, and all you have to go on is correlating physical expressions with a person's assumed mind, which is a fallacy of implying that correlation equals to causation.

Perhaps I am totally wrong, but this is the best I understand at this stage of my life. Perhaps I will change my beliefs in the future, using my free will
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87 View Post
The biggest villains were the censors. What they could do without being held back is my question. Shredder could've done more than blow up the Channel Six building. I don't mean as far as murdering Splinter, but think of the possibilities if censors were not an issue. Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.
FredWolfLeonardo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2016, 03:55 AM   #67
Commenter 42
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo View Post
First, watch the video, then we can discuss. The folks on the panel are some of the greatest minds working in neuroscience today.

If you'd like to debate their idea's about free will, I'm all for it. Asking questions like:
"I am imagining a bluebird flying across a beautiful field of sunflowers, can scientists ever find this image anywhere in my brain?"

Is sort of nonsense. The image? Like, the .jpg, or the oil painting? Do you mean the video tape or the laser disk? < I can say silly things too.

There isn't any image in your brain, or mine, any more than words are tangible. There may be an electrical sequence that could we could generate
that would produce that image, but so what? And how does your question begin to solve for the question of free will? Does my playstation have free will? My TV?

Again, they've done experiments, that are talked about at length in the video.

Like I said, not my "rule" or argument. It took me by surprise, to be honest.
In fact, there's arguments to be made that you, are not even "in" your brain, let alone "images".
Science is fun.

Last edited by Commenter 42; 08-06-2016 at 04:09 AM.
Commenter 42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2016, 09:47 AM   #68
plastroncafe
PerfectlyTunedFightEngine
 
plastroncafe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: The Upsidedown
Posts: 7,935
Nitpick:

Science doesn't prove anything, it only disproves things.
The Law of Gravity is the Law of Gravity, because it hasn't yet been disproven. It has withstood the test of time. That's why it gets the fancy name and isn't just called the Theory of Gravity. It could stop tomorrow. It's not probable that it'll stop tomorrow, but it's not impossible either.

So yeah, Science doesn't prove facts.
__________________
------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Spiegel View Post
So your wants and needs as a fan should outweigh everyone else's?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabacooza View Post
There's no sense catering just to one demographic which is idiotic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegita-San View Post
just ignore what you don't like rather than obsessing over it and move on with your life.
plastroncafe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2016, 10:04 AM   #69
CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
Annalist
 
CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 13,294
Wow. Four pages of civil discussion and still going strong. Not what I expected. Good for you, people. As you were.
__________________
ALL THEIR DAYS ARE NUMBERED
CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2016, 11:14 AM   #70
MsMarvelDuckie
I Married a Duck!
 
MsMarvelDuckie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: The bowels of Hell, Texas(otherwise known as Decatur)
Posts: 7,367
So the gist of the video is that our brain contrrols everything we do and that is "proof" that free will doesn't exist? No, that is the exact WRONG direction to go from that experiment. If OUR OWN brain is controlling our actions and behavuor, then by DEFINITION it is our own free will (mind) in charge! Not some outside power or influence controlling us against our wishes or choice. We CHOOSE what actions we take out of all the possible actions and their outcomes. That is what free will is all about. Whether to turn right or left when we leave the house or whether to leave at all. Even if we decide to get out of bed. Our own thoughts direct these things.

Our brain waves ARE our thoughts and feelings so the idea that this proves there is no free will is ludicrous. These may be some of the "best minds" in the world but even the best minds can still be WRONG. Like hundreds of years ago when most of the world's best minds agreed that the world was flat. Just because some smart people believe a thing based on their experience does not make it true.

On the topic of faith (which itself is a choice and based on one's own freely made decision to follow or not) I am Wiccan, and have been since I graduated high school and left my parents' home. This was after being raised as moderately Church of Christ, and going through phases of being atheist and then agnostic. I even dabbled in Taoism and Buddhism for a brief time. I found my spiritual calling partly by accident and partly out of natural curiosity for learning about all aspects of the world around me. I respect and appreciate all forms of life, and feel connected to nature and the wider universe in ways most people never consider. I also firmly believe in the prime tenet of "if it harms none do as ye will". That is, I feel, the ultimate truth behind all faiths, that they all have one thing in common- the need for a basic code of behavior to guide us.
__________________
"You IDIOTS! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -from "Spaceballs"

"Where Science ends, magic begins." -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

My various stories and fan-fics (including TMNT!!) are here:

http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_C...?showforum=188
MsMarvelDuckie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2016, 03:12 PM   #71
Commenter 42
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by plastroncafe View Post
Nitpick:

Science doesn't prove anything, it only disproves things.
MISCONCEPTION: Science can only disprove ideas.

CORRECTION: This misconception is based on the idea of falsification, philosopher Karl Popper's influential account of scientific justification, which suggests that all science can do is reject, or falsify, hypotheses — that science cannot find evidence that supports one idea over others. Falsification was a popular philosophical doctrine — especially with scientists — but it was soon recognized that falsification wasn't a very complete or accurate picture of how scientific knowledge is built. In science, ideas can never be completely proved or completely disproved. Instead, science accepts or rejects ideas based on supporting and refuting evidence, and may revise those conclusions if warranted by new evidence or perspectives.

...

Nitpicking.
Commenter 42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2016, 03:29 PM   #72
Commenter 42
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie View Post
So the gist of the video is that our brain contrrols everything we do and that is "proof" that free will doesn't exist? No, that is the exact WRONG direction to go from that experiment. If OUR OWN brain is controlling our actions and behavuor, then by DEFINITION it is our own free will (mind) in charge! Not some outside power or influence controlling us against our wishes or choice. We CHOOSE what actions we take out of all the possible actions and their outcomes. That is what free will is all about. Whether to turn right or left when we leave the house or whether to leave at all. Even if we decide to get out of bed. Our own thoughts direct these things.

Our brain waves ARE our thoughts and feelings so the idea that this proves there is no free will is ludicrous.
Thanks for at least watching some of the video. It's nice to have something to talk about!

The argument is, that we are not consciously in control of our actions, but we think we are. We move before we are aware we are moving. At this point, it is very much an open question of what this means, but coupled with other tests, it seems to point to the argument that we aren't driving the bus, and some might even argue, there is no "us" at all.

There's a new theory that the brain doesn't do all the thinking, and, some of our decision making happens, in our guts.

Let's suppose for a moment, that we can agree with what they've said: You are not really in control, and that consciousness is a funny byproduct of our existence, a useful adaptation, some odd runaway selection.

How does that make you feel? Does it scare you?
Commenter 42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2016, 06:05 PM   #73
FredWolfLeonardo
Big Blue Boy Scout
 
FredWolfLeonardo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: New Bark Town
Posts: 2,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commenter 42 View Post
First, watch the video, then we can discuss. The folks on the panel are some of the greatest minds working in neuroscience today.
Get around to watching the whole video today. I'm glad this hasn't turned into a flame war, looks like there's hope for the drome. Hopefully when I'm done, I'll reply to your points and hopefully learn something from you too.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87 View Post
The biggest villains were the censors. What they could do without being held back is my question. Shredder could've done more than blow up the Channel Six building. I don't mean as far as murdering Splinter, but think of the possibilities if censors were not an issue. Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.
FredWolfLeonardo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2016, 06:07 PM   #74
Navin Johnson
Stone Warrior
 
Navin Johnson's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 524
I am a Christian, I have faith, I'm good with it
__________________
Lord loves a workin' man
Navin Johnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2016, 06:11 PM   #75
Commenter 42
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo View Post
Get around to watching the whole video today. I'm glad this hasn't turned into a flame war, looks like there's hope for the drome. Hopefully when I'm done, I'll reply to your points and hopefully learn something from you too.
Ok cool. I get nasty when people just want to spout their beliefs, without looking at opposing ideas. I'm willing to be civil and openminded if you are.
Commenter 42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2016, 06:14 PM   #76
MsMarvelDuckie
I Married a Duck!
 
MsMarvelDuckie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: The bowels of Hell, Texas(otherwise known as Decatur)
Posts: 7,367
Not at all because if we were NOT "driving the bus" then all of human existance would be mindless acts without conscious thought. Which is in itself ridiculous. They based their theory ( and that's ALL it is) on the presupposition that we act without THINKING. Or that the thought itself has nothing to do with the act. I disagree- thought and action are one and the same. I can't type this without THINKING about what I am going to type. That is a decision made by my conscious will BEFORE the act is made. So I'm disproving their idea right now. If I did not consciously consider what goes into my post, it would just be a bunch of meaningless gibberish on a screen- assuming I could type at all, as that also requires a pre-determined thought. And in fact there would be nothing to rype ON, as without free will we would never choose to advance our knowledge and technology, as no one would have the conscious thought to do so! Human history is itself proof of free will. It is made of the choices and actions of people shaping their own world over time. The Holocaust was a product of the free will of a few people responsible for causing those atrocities BY CHOICE. Chew on that for a moment, if you will.

In a more theological sense, free will pertains to whether we as humans are independant of our "creator(s)" whom or whatever that may be. More a question of destiny vs self-determination. In that sense, I believe it is a bit of both. I fully believe that there are some events or moments in our lives that are predetermined. How we choose to approach them and how the outcome ends up is where free will comes in. We can either be on the fatal bus crash or we can be delayed by some unknown twist of fate, depending on what we do leading up to it. Like leaving the house five minutes too late and thus missing the bus- because your mom called at the last minute to say goodbye and talked too long. Thus saving you from getting on, when you have always taken the same bus every day for years..... You could have simply ignored the phone and left. Things like that.
__________________
"You IDIOTS! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -from "Spaceballs"

"Where Science ends, magic begins." -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

My various stories and fan-fics (including TMNT!!) are here:

http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_C...?showforum=188
MsMarvelDuckie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2016, 06:17 PM   #77
FredWolfLeonardo
Big Blue Boy Scout
 
FredWolfLeonardo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: New Bark Town
Posts: 2,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commenter 42 View Post
Ok cool. I get nasty when people just want to spout their beliefs, without looking at opposing ideas. I'm willing to be civil and openminded if you are.
A certain Buddhist teacher was taught me that in order to be at peace with yourself, you must be willing to accept other ideas and not let them affect you personally, even if the ideas include things like us being meat robots or that the belief that we should be unconditionally accepting of others, regardless of how much they don't accept us.

If I mentally resist the contents of the entire video, I will only be harming myself and not allowing myself to understand the ideas and experiments cited throughout the entirety of the video, instead making myself anxious and agitated over them. Through Acceptance comes unconditional peace, and through unconditional peace one connects to God, or at least that is what I believe, but that is another topic of discussion.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87 View Post
The biggest villains were the censors. What they could do without being held back is my question. Shredder could've done more than blow up the Channel Six building. I don't mean as far as murdering Splinter, but think of the possibilities if censors were not an issue. Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.

Last edited by FredWolfLeonardo; 08-06-2016 at 06:26 PM.
FredWolfLeonardo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2016, 06:35 PM   #78
Commenter 42
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie View Post
Not at all because if we were NOT "driving the bus" then all of human existance would be mindless acts without conscious thought.
Is it not? Look around you. We destroy, it's all we've ever done. The point is, there is no point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie View Post
I can't type this without THINKING about what I am going to type.
Re-watch the video. that feeling, that you want to type, comes After the signal to type is sent.
That's the whole point. you are only made aware after the fact, and you view it as the initial impulse.

That's the freaky part. How could you make a decision, after you've made a choice?
Commenter 42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2016, 07:31 PM   #79
snake
Noided
 
snake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 11,696
I really don't get why everyone loves reducing humanity to insignificant, mindless, programmed robots. Never appealed to me. Same thing with the "EVERYTHING YOU FEEL IS JUST CHEMICALS TELLING YOU TO FEEL THAT WAY" mindset
snake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2016, 07:41 PM   #80
CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
Annalist
 
CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 13,294
Without having yet watched the video C42 linked, I will say at least that the proposed theory sounds like the bastard child of Chaos Theory and psychology.

Could have some interesting fodder for writing...
__________________
ALL THEIR DAYS ARE NUMBERED
CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
jesushtapdancingchrist

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.