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Old 08-06-2016, 10:22 PM   #81
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I really don't get why everyone loves reducing humanity to insignificant, mindless, programmed robots. Never appealed to me. Same thing with the "EVERYTHING YOU FEEL IS JUST CHEMICALS TELLING YOU TO FEEL THAT WAY" mindset
The thing about science is, you don't have to like it, or agree with it, for it to be true.

I personally have a big issue with gravity, in that, it keeps me from flying. That's a super piss-off. I also don't like how it breaks my dishes, like all the damned time.

It's not about reducing us to robots, but better understanding what we are.
One of the better examples, in another video I haven't linked, talks about our punitive justice system, and how, if we were to truly be fair and just, knowing what we know, instead of reprimanding the criminal, we'd punish the system that created the criminal, or perhaps the system, and the criminal. Taking it a step further, maybe we don't punish anyone, and instead, mend the part of the system that created the criminal behavior.

Now, sure that's a difficult topic, give the numerous variety of crimes, and vast number committed, but if we really don't have free will, then where does responsibility lie?

Again, if you're like me, the immediate reaction is "what? people shouldn't be held responsible? Rapists and murderers aren't deserving of swift justice?

Our brains say yes... mine and yours, BUT the argument might be, in direct opposition to what we feel, which again, is something we might not be able to trust.

I'm a huge proponent for personal responsibility, and yet, I believe their argument.

My brain and my values, all say otherwise. Crazy.


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Without having yet watched the video C42 linked, I will say at least that the proposed theory sounds like the bastard child of Chaos Theory and psychology.

Could have some interesting fodder for writing...
The entire channel is good. You may dislike me, but I have good taste.
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Old 08-07-2016, 07:27 AM   #82
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I am the devil.

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Old 08-07-2016, 08:12 AM   #83
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Exactly. Take away the conscious and spiritual aspect of humanity and all you have is an unintelligent animal with no impulse control. We are better than that.

And how do you decide to do something after the signal is sent? That makes no sense. There cannot BE a signal until after you consciously decide to take rhe action! Thought comes first. That is simple logic. Action cannot occur before the mind telks it to. The only actions that occur without thinking are those that are automatic responses. Like breathing. That is all. There are two types of nerve responses for a reason. Higher voluntary acts are made by a conscious decision by the cerebral cortex- where we THINK. Involuntary reflexs are the only ones made without the mind involved. Cmon this is basic biology here.
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Old 08-07-2016, 08:33 AM   #84
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Actually, that's not entirely true. Most animals have a sympathetic nervous system which can react without thought. Cats for example rely much mire on the sympathetic nervous system for their actions than thinking through what they are doing. Driven by instinct, as it were.

However, while humans do have a sympathetic nervous system, we evolved the capability for higher thought and have the ability to weigh decisions and imagine consequences. I know I don't act impulsively on anything, in fact peope get angry with me because it sometimes takes me awhile to make a decision. Like a chess game.

Even if that video is right, why would it be scary? Its just how it is. But I do not buy their theory.
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Old 08-07-2016, 08:50 AM   #85
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That was my point as well. Involuntary actions are mostly instinctive. But we are capable of overriding many of them by conscious thought- such as intentionally holding our breath for a predetermined length of time. Basically they are putting the cart before the horse and saying that the body responds to a signal that hasnt even been sent yet, since the thought/idea/choice of taking an action IS the signal being sent! So there is a contradiction right there. I dont buy into this "everything is automatic" line of thinking that tries to reduce all of life to simple chemical and electrical reactions. We are more than that. Heck even a snail is more than that. Remember tbescene in The Fly where they tested the teleporter on the monkey? It had no idea how to put him back together again. It turned him into mush. We are more than the sum of our parts......
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Old 08-07-2016, 10:15 AM   #86
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Exactly. Take away the conscious and spiritual aspect of humanity and all you have is an unintelligent animal with no impulse control. We are better than that.
We think we are. It doesn't mean we are. Man is still animal.

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And how do you decide to do something after the signal is sent? That makes no sense.
Exactly! but that's what the tests show. We act before we think to act. It's strange.
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Old 08-07-2016, 10:26 AM   #87
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I wish Zack Snyder was a member here. He'd set this thread straight.
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Old 08-07-2016, 10:38 AM   #88
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I wish Zack Snyder was a member here. He'd set this thread straight.
You always know just what to say to me...

*sigh* Snyder, How I hate thee...
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Old 08-07-2016, 10:48 AM   #89
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That was my point as well. Involuntary actions are mostly instinctive. But we are capable of overriding many of them by conscious thought- such as intentionally holding our breath for a predetermined length of time. Basically they are putting the cart before the horse and saying that the body responds to a signal that hasnt even been sent yet, since the thought/idea/choice of taking an action IS the signal being sent! So there is a contradiction right there. I dont buy into this "everything is automatic" line of thinking that tries to reduce all of life to simple chemical and electrical reactions. We are more than that. Heck even a snail is more than that. Remember tbescene in The Fly where they tested the teleporter on the monkey? It had no idea how to put him back together again. It turned him into mush. We are more than the sum of our parts......
Hey, Duckie, not for nothing, but, you do realize the contradiction you've pointed to is obvious to everyone, right? Don't you think, they've gone over this?

These folks are pretty smart.
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Old 08-07-2016, 11:24 AM   #90
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However, while humans do have a sympathetic nervous system, we evolved the capability for higher thought and have the ability to weigh decisions and imagine consequences.
Which so many seem to lose touch with so easily these days. It's like we're going backwards.

Upset over something? Even if it's stupid to act out? (i.e. Riot and vandalism in Philly after their team won.) I know, lets form an angry mob and burn down half the town without thought.

Personally I don't get how people can fall into behaving that way. When did the rational conscious mind stop saying "Whoa, wtf are you thinking/doing?"
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Old 08-07-2016, 01:26 PM   #91
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Hey, Duckie, not for nothing, but, you do realize the contradiction you've pointed to is obvious to everyone, right? Don't you think, they've gone over this?

These folks are pretty smart.
Apparently not if they are putting something so obvious completely backwards. And you didn't answer the question(and from what I saw neither did they) how dors action PRECEDE the IDEA of the action? It can't. You can't do something before you ever think of doing it. That is an absurd idea from any angle. Using the typing of post as example again, one does not simply begin doing so without any thought, there has to be INTENT before one can even consider WHAT will be put down. To think it could work the other way around (that one would simply type letters on a screen without any forethought triggering the action) is not only utterly ridiculous, but it borders on insanity. Any conscious act MUST by definition have been considered and decided on BEFORE the act itself- we don't live backward, so how can an act precede the idea that initiates it? That is basically what is being stated and it is dead wrong. Its backwards from any logical way of thinking, and thus is inherently flawed. As smart as those panelists supposedly are, they seem to be outvof tough with reality on some fundamental level to jump to such a conclusion as proof that there is no free will.

As a secondary question, the idea was suggested that this theory brings up whether or not a person is responsible for their own actions if their brain is steering the ship. (And I will mention again that the brain is where conscious thought resides so what ELSE would one expect?) If a person isn't responsible due to lack of conscious will being exerted over their own actions (as they suggest) then who orvwhat IS? The answer is nobody. No matter how you try to slice it, there is no outside force MAKING anyone do anything against their own judgement. This theory borders on "devil made me do it" territory, which is reason enough to dismiss it. It is pseudoscience and nothing more.
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Old 08-07-2016, 08:03 PM   #92
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Which so many seem to lose touch with so easily these days. It's like we're going backwards.

Upset over something? Even if it's stupid to act out? (i.e. Riot and vandalism in Philly after their team won.) I know, lets form an angry mob and burn down half the town without thought.

Personally I don't get how people can fall into behaving that way. When did the rational conscious mind stop saying "Whoa, wtf are you thinking/doing?"
It's the adrenaline. Our rational mind doesn't know what to do with the physiological effects of adrenaline. So it looks to outside sources for an explanation.

There have been psychology studies where they've given subjects a shot of adrenaline and then put them in a waiting room with actors instructed to express a certain emotional state.

The test subjects began to mimic the emotional state of what ever actors were in their vicinity.

Subjects who were in a room of people pretending to be sad, became sad.
Angry, became angry.
Happy....etc.
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So your wants and needs as a fan should outweigh everyone else's?
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There's no sense catering just to one demographic which is idiotic.
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just ignore what you don't like rather than obsessing over it and move on with your life.
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Old 08-07-2016, 08:47 PM   #93
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It's the adrenaline. Our rational mind doesn't know what to do with the physiological effects of adrenaline. So it looks to outside sources for an explanation.

There have been psychology studies where they've given subjects a shot of adrenaline and then put them in a waiting room with actors instructed to express a certain emotional state.

The test subjects began to mimic the emotional state of what ever actors were in their vicinity.

Subjects who were in a room of people pretending to be sad, became sad.
Angry, became angry.
Happy....etc.
That's every interesting. Are there any good videos showing these studies?
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Old 08-07-2016, 09:07 PM   #94
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That's every interesting. Are there any good videos showing these studies?
Videos? No, but I think this is the the study we covered in my undergrad psych class:
http://www.psychwiki.com/wiki/The_Sc...irical_Support

If nothing else, there are some citations for primary sources at the bottom.

A note, it would appear that my exact recollection of the study wasn't 100% accurate.
Only two emotional states were studied: anger and euphoria. No sadness.
My bad. (It's been well over a decade since I studied this...)
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There's no sense catering just to one demographic which is idiotic.
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just ignore what you don't like rather than obsessing over it and move on with your life.
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Old 08-07-2016, 10:05 PM   #95
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Cool, thanks for the link.
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Old 08-07-2016, 10:08 PM   #96
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Even though I don't practice religion, I do have a religion, only because my parents had a religion and so on and so forth. But they weren't very religious either so...
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Old 08-07-2016, 10:48 PM   #97
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I'm not even entirely sure what we're "supposed to be," or rather what family has tended to be prior, I think maybe Presbyterian?

I've never been religious, nor my parents, my mom's parents never spoke a word about that topic so I can only assume they were no different. My dad's side is pretty evenly split between Christians and atheists. I'm not quite sure how that happened. lol And he was one of seven kids, so there's quite a few relatives on his side so it's not just a few close relatives the divide sits between. Fortunately everyone keeps it pretty civil about that topic and just avoids it at most get togethers.
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Old 08-08-2016, 12:38 AM   #98
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It is pseudoscience and nothing more.
Says the Wiccan? Lol, don't be that girl...
It's a mixed panel, but far more reputable than waving sage in the air,
like you just don't care.

I'll give you the neuro market is saturated, with fakes making up a good number, but this is just the tip of the ice burg. It's generally accepted that free will is bollocks.

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I'm not even entirely sure what we're "supposed to be," or rather what family has tended to be prior, I think maybe Presbyterian?

I've never been religious, nor my parents, my mom's parents never spoke a word about that topic so I can only assume they were no different. My dad's side is pretty evenly split between Christians and atheists. I'm not quite sure how that happened. lol And he was one of seven kids, so there's quite a few relatives on his side so it's not just a few close relatives the divide sits between. Fortunately everyone keeps it pretty civil about that topic and just avoids it at most get togethers.
Evidence, at least to me, of why religion doesn't determine morality. I've been on the board for almost 5 years , and in all that time, you've NEVER been rude. On the other hand I'm an ass.
If we both went to church/worshiped/sacrificed virgins to volcanos, We'd still be pretty much the same people.

Good is a word derrived from the word god only; being a kind person requires no supervision or lecture.


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Old 08-08-2016, 02:01 AM   #99
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First, watch the video, then we can discuss. The folks on the panel are some of the greatest minds working in neuroscience today.
Ok, I have watched the entire video, and I have my points to say.

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If you'd like to debate their idea's about free will, I'm all for it. Asking questions like:
"I am imagining a bluebird flying across a beautiful field of sunflowers, can scientists ever find this image anywhere in my brain?"

Is sort of nonsense. The image? Like, the .jpg, or the oil painting? Do you mean the video tape or the laser disk? < I can say silly things too.
Why is it nonsense? Just because it cannot be physically measured? That's exactly what I have been trying to tell you, that there are certain things that cannot be measured using the scientific method, such as our consciousness.

Now, you may want to claim that we can indeed measure these things by measuring the electrical signals that pule throughout our brain, but the electrical signals themselves are not the IMMATERIAL thoughts, ideas, values and beliefs that I experience, they are electrical signals which lack meaning outside of what our immaterial thoughts and imagination give them.

The proper way to investigate MENTAL thoughts, ideas, values and beliefs would be through MENTAL introspection, an entirely different field of study from science, which concerns itself with perceived objective reality through the repeated tests and observation of PHYSICAL stimuli in order to figure out how the PHYSICAL world works.

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There isn't any image in your brain, or mine, any more than words are tangible. There may be an electrical sequence that could we could generate
that would produce that image, but so what? And how does your question begin to solve for the question of free will? Does my playstation have free will? My TV?

Again, they've done experiments, that are talked about at length in the video.

Like I said, not my "rule" or argument. It took me by surprise, to be honest.
In fact, there's arguments to be made that you, are not even "in" your brain, let alone "images".
Science is fun.
1. That is exactly the point. The images in our mind are completely intangible, immaterial and outside the laws of physics which solely concern themselves with the material. Anyone who says that the electrical signals are responsible for these immaterial images has no choice but to commit the fallacy of implying that correlation equals causation, and is also trying to explain the immaterial using science, which is solely concerned with the material.

"And how does your question begin to solve for the question of free will? Does my playstation have free will? My TV?"

It solves the question by talking about my immaterial self which I and you can experience. This immaterial soul is not bound by the laws of physics due to its non physical nature, and is thus exempt from determinism. Don't get me wrong, I fully believe in physical determinism, and that any ideas of physical reality being different rest solely in our non-physical mind.

I find the parallel between mind/body and electrical currents and the picture you see on television to be fallacious. Firstly, because the television image is not IMMATERIAL, looking closely at the image on the screen will allow you to see the individual PHYSICAL pixels which are caused by the PHYSICAL currents running across the PHYSICAL currents. So of course, your television and PlayStation don't have free will, as everything about them is physical from (aside from the meaning we assign to them using our non-physical mind), thus they are bound by the laws of cause and effect.

I found it dishonest for one of the speakers to rule out the existence of anything thats not physical due to the lack of evidence, because firstly, they were searching for the immaterial in the wrong places by examining the physical brain, which of course won't show you anything immaterial as it is a physical organ. You look for the immaterial by using your immaterial mind. No matter how much they try, scientists cannot see the immaterial image of the bluebird flying in my head by looking at the electrical currents that run through my physical brain. Physical currents are not the imagined bluebird itself. Also, if one of the speakers bothered to investigate the problem of premium free will which they cited as one of the 3 options on the gas station, they would've been forced to conclude that science cannot answer the immaterial. I found it a cop out to just label the option as "Archaic" and not even attempt to honestly investigate it just because it dwells into a completely different realm that science cannot answer.

"There's arguments to be made that you, are not even "in" your brain, let alone "images".

I agree, I do not believe I am my brain, and/or my body or even inside of them. I believe I am an immaterial soul, independent of my physical body which feels physical sensations via a physical body, It is my mind which interprets the physical body as my own and the world around me, giving meaning to everything. I do not believe the immaterial images I imagine such as bluebirds and gardens, are even in my brain technically, because of their non-physical nature. Being non-physical would make the mind beyond time and space. I guess this makes me a dualist.
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The biggest villains were the censors. What they could do without being held back is my question. Shredder could've done more than blow up the Channel Six building. I don't mean as far as murdering Splinter, but think of the possibilities if censors were not an issue. Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.

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Old 08-08-2016, 03:38 AM   #100
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We won't agree. I'm a solid materialist, not a dualist, which Seems to be what you ascribe to.

There's a new article on the brain as a quantum field. I'll find the link and post it.

I'll respond to your other points when it's not so late.
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