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Old 04-17-2017, 01:20 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Vicky82 View Post
He still did bad things though.

He did turn a human into a monster in Dragon's Brew.
Bishop is what we call, "shades of gray." He believes what he is doing is for the greater good, even if he sometimes did shady or unjust things. He was always trying to save humanity from mutants or aliens though. Same reason he tries to stop Shredder (both Ch'rell in Season 3 and then Demon Shredder)
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Old 04-17-2017, 01:35 PM   #22
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Bishop is what we call, "shades of gray." He believes what he is doing is for the greater good, even if he sometimes did shady or unjust things. He was always trying to save humanity from mutants or aliens though. Same reason he tries to stop Shredder (both Ch'rell in Season 3 and then Demon Shredder)
Basically 2k3 Bishop is lawful neutral on good days and lawful evil on bad days, unfortunately we see more of his bad days in the 2k3 series.

On topic, my main problem with the Nick show using old characters is that they don't really do anything with them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting much out of characters like the Punk Frogs and Bellybomb but when you have major players like Hun and Bishop and put them in the background, then maybe you should't have used them at all.
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Old 04-17-2017, 01:47 PM   #23
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You claim Nick's characters are in "name only." Yet the vast majority of IDW used old characters are in "name only" as well. I don't understand your double standards.

In IDW:

- Krang is now an actual Utrom, instead of a disembodied brain from Dimension X. Now he's trying to rebuild his Utrom.

- Bebop/Rocksteady have superhuman strength and regeneration powers

- Rat King is an immortal God part of the Pantheon, and IDW's design for him looks vastly different than all previous Rat Kings

- Hun is now Casey's father

- Karai is Shredder's great+ granddaughter

- Slash is now a huge hulking character and ally of the Turtles rather than the maniac he was known for prior to 2011

- Fugitoid is a Neutrino

- The Triceratons were now mutated on Earth, instead of a natural born alien race

- Mutagen Man, Man Ray, Mondo Gecko, etc. now have new/different origins than what they're initially known for

And the biggest of all:

- The Turtles are now reincarnated humans from Feudal Japan!!!!!

etc.

I could go on and on. But I don't understand these bizarre double standards when all the IDW incarnations of the characters are also new or updated. You can say the "name only" thing here as well, which puts into perspective how ridiculous this argument is. Of course everyone is going to update characters.
Because Krang, Bebop, Rocksteady, Slash, Mutagen Man, Mondo and Ray were all garbage and in desperate need of reinvention.

Alright, alright... Let's take this seriously and go over them one by one:
  • Krang: Easy to explain, the disembodied brain origin just creates problems when the actual Utroms also run around. It's just a no-brainer of a compromise.
  • Bebop/Rocksteady: The IDW Bebop and Rocksteady are pretty much the revisionist lie a lot of people seem to have told themselves, nobody wants Bebop and Rocksteady as they were in the show because that's not what people want to remember. Besides, it's not like it would have worked with the tone anyway.
  • Rat King: Isn't it just building on the Pantheon stuff from Mirage? From what I understand the original version of that concept never really went anywhere, so why not expand on it.
  • Hun: Hun being Casey's father doesn't change his personality or position, it just changes the nature of his relationship with Casey. And it's arguable the "you killed my father" narrative is a little too much of an old cliché.
  • Karai: Pretty minor change from the 4Kids show.
  • Slash: Did anyone want the "Deviantart Sonic fandom" school's version of a TMNT character with the added quirk being an obsession with palm trees? I don't think so.
  • Fugitoid: Still a humanoid alien trapped in a robotic service robot, he's effectively the same character. Why neutrino specifically though? I guess because a seemingly human scientist on alien world seems kind of strange.
  • Triceratons: A similar reason to the Fugitoid and Krang I guess. It pretty much just explains why they look like an extinct earth animals rather than leave it a mystery.
  • Mutagen Man: Technically, it is the origin Peter Laird intended for the character, and the old origin relies on the mutagen just doing whatever the plot calls for regardless of established facts.
  • Man Ray: ... Man Ray sucked... He had no personality outside of "Don't throw stuff into the ocean!" and his origin was just that he used to be a guy working at an aquarium before being hit with mutagen.
  • Mondo: Which origin are you talking about? The one where he was a gecko bought alongside the Turtles and raised by a random criminal, or the one where he was a teenager playing a guitar in the sewer? His origin wasn't even consistant in the first place.
  • The Turtles: ... Alright, that's actually kind of a big and somewhat important change since it deviates from every other version, but it doesn't really change their personalities or what they are. The rationale behind it (I think) is that it makes the mystical stuff seem more like it's part of the central theme from the start, where as in the other versions it just seemed to come out of nowhere when the time came for it.
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Old 04-17-2017, 02:12 PM   #24
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That's what I mean, neatoman, all the characters were updated to fit into IDW's writing over a children's cartoon show. And that's fine, their original incarnations fit the Fred Wolf show, and the IDW versions fit their universe. But they're all still updated/changed, similar to what Nick or 4kids did, etc.

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but when you have major players like Hun and Bishop and put them in the background, then maybe you should't have used them at all.
Bishop's been in quite a few episodes and he's going to appear again in the upcoming Newtralizer/Mona Lisa ep.
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Old 04-17-2017, 02:21 PM   #25
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What neatoman is saying is that IDW integrated them into the narrative organically and made them even better.

Nick was just all "Memba Bishop?" "I memba!" "Memba the Neutrinos though?"
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Old 04-17-2017, 02:22 PM   #26
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What neatoman is saying is that IDW integrated them into the narrative organically and made them even better.

Nick was just all "Memba Bishop?" "I memba!" "Memba the Neutrinos though?"
Now you're the one tilting at Cubedmills.
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Old 04-17-2017, 02:24 PM   #27
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He's got a brain in there somewhere.
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Old 04-17-2017, 02:36 PM   #28
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Like I mentioned on another thread it's a matter of variation and deviation. I think the Nick show deviates too much that yeah they might as well not have brought them back. I haven't read IDW yet but most of those I feel are variations rather than deviations though some really are bad choices like Triceratons being mutated but maybe it works Stuff like Bishop being an Utrom seems fine by me as well.

Sometimes the personality might be ok but if the character design looks nothing like the original character why use that for that specific character? If it's a character that had a boring design then it can be fine as long as it has some redeeming features. Mona Lisa having a totally different story works fine since she was such a minor character but others it doesn't, it's really on a case by case basis.

Did I like Nick bringing characters back?

Yes and no. I want to see characters brought back in new incarnations of the turtles, when you have such a rich cast of characters, they need to be used but I also like seeing new characters, there needs to be a balance. And if an old character is brought back then they should resemble somewhat the original characters, some changes are fine but you have to be aware.
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Old 04-17-2017, 02:40 PM   #29
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While we're on the subject... why the hell wasn't Zeno just Traximus? Swing and a miss there.

Also why Zanmoran instead of Zanramon?
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Old 04-17-2017, 03:04 PM   #30
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Bishop has been handled just fine in the Nick cartoon. I enjoyed all his appearances so far, and looking forward to his Season 5 episode.

I also find it bizarre people are saying some characters only have a few episodes in the Nick cartoon, when the original cartoon, 4kids series, even Archie also only gave some characters a small handful of appearances.

Shredder and whoever his henchmen are are always the ones who get the most screentime each series. In 4kids Hun was Shredder's second in command, so he got the most screentime alongside Karai and Baxter. In Nick, Tiger Claw, Rahzar, Fishface, Bebop/Rocksteady and Baxter get the most appearances, since they work for him. All the other characters were always just one off or short lived characters in every series.

Slash has more appearances in the Nick cartoon than the original show or Archie, and Leatherhead has probably appeared the same amount of episodes as the 4kids version. Rat King also got 3 episodes in Nick, whereas in 4kids he only got 1 measly episode.

Double standards.
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Old 04-17-2017, 03:24 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
Bishop has been handled just fine in the Nick cartoon. I enjoyed all his appearances so far, and looking forward to his Season 5 episode.
Well different strokes I guess because to me Bishop hasn't really been handled in a fine way. The dude was a major player in the 2k3 series and is probably going to be a major one in the IDW series but here he feels like an afterthought, hell even in the episodes he appears in, he feels more like a secondary character. Compare this to the 2k3 version where not only he appears in more episodes but he also gets his own pov, he actually feels like a big part of the TMNT world.

.

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Shredder and whoever his henchmen are are always the ones who get the most screentime each series. In 4kids Hun was Shredder's second in command, so he got the most screentime alongside Karai and Baxter. In Nick, Tiger Claw, Rahzar, Fishface, Bebop/Rocksteady and Baxter get the most appearances, since they work for him. All the other characters were always just one off or short lived characters in every series.[
Slash has more appearances in the Nick cartoon than the original show or Archie, and Leatherhead has probably appeared the same amount of episodes as the 4kids version. Rat King also got 3 episodes in Nick, whereas in 4kids he only got 1 measly episode.

Double standards.
Not really a double standard because the Nick series does it worse, again you have numerous of characters who were major players in other series downgraded into secondary characters.
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Old 04-17-2017, 03:36 PM   #32
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Well different strokes I guess because to me Bishop hasn't really been handled in a fine way. The dude was a major player in the 2k3 series and is probably going to be a major one in the IDW series but here he feels like an afterthought, hell even in the episodes he appears in, he feels more like a secondary character. Compare this to the 2k3 version where not only he appears in more episodes but he also gets his own pov, he actually feels like a big part of the TMNT world.
Because in 4kids Bishop was originally built up as an antagonist. That isn't his role in this show. Also you're imagining Bishop appearing in 4kids a lot more than he did. He didn't debut until Season 3, and he only appeared in about 5 episodes. He was in a large chunk of Season 4, but then in Seasons 5 only appeared in one episode prior to the climax with Demon Shredder, and he was only in 3 FF episodes.

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Not really a double standard because the Nick series does it worse, again you have numerous of characters who were major players in other series downgraded into secondary characters.
I don't agree with Bishop, but other than that I don't see who else you mean besides Hun. All the big characters in this show like Karai, Shredder, Kraang, Baxter, Bebop/Rocksteady, Leatherhead, Rat King, Slash, etc. have just as much a major presence here as any other show.

In fact most of the one-off mutants who are only in like 1-2 episodes are new characters Nick created themselves.
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Old 04-17-2017, 03:44 PM   #33
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Because in 4kids Bishop was originally built up as an antagonist. That isn't his role in this show. Also you're imagining Bishop appearing in 4kids a lot more than he did. He didn't debut until Season 3, and he only appeared in about 5 episodes. He was in a large chunk of Season 4, but then in Seasons 5 only appeared in one episode prior to the climax with Demon Shredder, and he was only in 3 FF episodes.
Thats still a hell of a lot more than the Nick Bishop also I don't see why Nick Bishop can't be a major player without being an antagonist.



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I don't agree with Bishop, but other than that I don't see who else you mean besides Hun. All the big characters in this show like Karai, Shredder, Kraang, Baxter, Bebop/Rocksteady, Leatherhead, Rat King, Slash, etc. have just as much a major presence here as any other show.

In fact most of the one-off mutants who are only in like 1-2 episodes are new characters Nick created themselves.
You are honestly saying Nick Baxter has much of a presence as 4kids Baxter or that Bebop and Rocksteady has much of a presence as their FW counterparts.
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Old 04-17-2017, 04:31 PM   #34
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It depends on the character.
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Old 04-17-2017, 05:06 PM   #35
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Thats still a hell of a lot more than the Nick Bishop also I don't see why Nick Bishop can't be a major player without being an antagonist.
He's an important secondary recurring character in Nick. He just doesn't have as much appearances because as we said, he's not an antagonist.

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You are honestly saying Nick Baxter has much of a presence as 4kids Baxter or that Bebop and Rocksteady has much of a presence as their FW counterparts.
You know good and well this is based on each individual series. Fred Wolf Bebop/Rocksteady were in nearly every episode Shredder appeared because that's how that show works. Nick's Bebop/Rocksteady appeared regularly since they've been mutated. They have the same presence when it comes to their focus episodes. Of course I'm not talking about episode count, 80's Bebop/Rocksteady were in somewhere around 140 episodes.

Nick's Baxter isn't as heavily focused on as 4kids Baxter, but he's still been in 24 episodes and worked for Shredder and came up with most of the mutation plans throughout the series.
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Old 04-17-2017, 05:09 PM   #36
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What neatoman is saying is that IDW integrated them into the narrative organically and made them even better.
Yes thank you, I'm glad that someone else understands the difference between changes that serve a real purpose and those which are just arbitrary.

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Nick was just all "Memba Bishop?" "I memba!" "Memba the Neutrinos though?"
It's barely even that though. Like with my previous "Hothead/Kavaxas/Drako" example, I will do the same with Wyrm.

There's really no point to making the genie character Wyrm, did anyone honestly take a look at the design and go "He totally seems like a genie type character!"? How does anyone connect worms to genies? It's not even like the character was completely devoid of previous characterisation. The truth is, much of this is probably just some vain attempt to make it seem as if the show has more to do with previous material than it really does.

The way he was written, they might as well have used Cudley, Jagwar, Nano, Stump, Hallocat, Cherubae, Null, Dreadmon, Viral, Sh'Okanabo or Triple Threat and it would have made about as much sense.
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Old 04-17-2017, 05:13 PM   #37
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Yes thank you, I'm glad that someone else understands the difference between changes that serve a real purpose and those which are just arbitrary.
Even if that's the case, it's the same thing. IDW took a minor character like Angel and somehow turned her into an important character who became Nobody and is now one of the most appearing characters in the series.

Also from the looks of things Jagwar might be part of the Pantheon, both she and Null were changed to females from Archie, etc.

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There's really no point to making the genie character Wyrm, did anyone honestly take a look at the design and go "He totally seems like a genie type character!"? How does anyone connect worms to genies? It's not even like the character was completely devoid of previous characterisation. The truth is, much of this is probably just some vain attempt to make it seem as if the show has more to do with previous material than it really does.
.
While I agree with this, Wyrm is such a minor character in TMNT it doesn't really matter. He never appeared in the original cartoon, and prior to IDW's one-shot with him, he only ever appeared in 2 Archie comics where all he did was attack Scumbug.
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Old 04-17-2017, 05:18 PM   #38
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If Baxter wasn't voiced by an expensive star, then maybe he would of been more focus on him.

I do feel that them using expensive stars to voice characters was more important than the story itself.
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Old 04-17-2017, 05:50 PM   #39
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Even if that's the case, it's the same thing. IDW took a minor character like Angel and somehow turned her into an important character who became Nobody and is now one of the most appearing characters in the series.
But Angel isn't really that different from the original version aside from being older and what was added with time. She was originally a minor character, yes, but it's not she was changed as much as she was just expanded upon and it's all in line with the comic's tone and progression. It's not like they just combined Angel and Nobody from the start and ignored what the show had already established about her, so I don't get what the problem is? It's not contrived or random, neither as a version of Angel or as part of the series, so it works.

When Bebop and Rocksteady pops in halfway through season 3 it doesn't really feel organic in anyway. It happens after Shredder already had a ton of henchmen, they were created from characters who didn't seem to have anything to do with the original characters (if Zeck didn't have a purple mohawk, would you ever have guessed he would turn out to be Bebop?) and they don't seem to contribute much afterwards. So who were they appealing to by adding them? The target audience of little kids who didn't know who they were from before and already had a bunch of other characters to keep track of at that point? The periphery audience of older fans who might feel alienated by the new approach?

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Also from the looks of things Jagwar might be part of the Pantheon, both she and Null were changed to females from Archie, etc.
The original Jagwar was... An oddity to say the least. It seems to me like they're just combining Jagwar with his dad, the Jaguar spirit thing. Again, not really a change that's all that jarring and it does provide a better narrative that just having this bizarre Jaguar-Demigod-Avatar thing just running around with his creepy spirit bestiality origin. It was just... Weird and I don't like to think about it...

As for the female thing... Diversity? I'll agree that it's kind pointless to change that but I don't think enough people cared deeply about Null or Jaqwar for that to be a deal breaker.

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While I agree with this, Wyrm is such a minor character in TMNT it doesn't really matter. He never appeared in the original cartoon, and prior to IDW's one-shot with him, he only ever appeared in 2 Archie comics where all he did was attack Scumbug.
Whatever... But why Wyrm specifically though? If they just went with him because he's such a minor character, why not just take something that fits the genie motif better? Why an oversized flatworm of all things?
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Old 04-17-2017, 06:26 PM   #40
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I do feel that them using expensive stars to voice characters was more important than the story itself.
Why would having expensive stars be more important than having a good story.

Also I don't think Phil Lamarr is that expensive
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