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Old 07-03-2020, 10:37 AM   #161
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But you're still gonna care. And you're still gonna hope the next time will be better. That's silly. People need to stop doing that. The term "Battered Wives Syndrome" applies better to this franchise than just about any that I can think of, because for some reason, in spite of ALL evidence and objective reasoning... some people actually think that there'e ever gonna be another good movie. They think Nick actually cares about this property. They're happy whenever a new Nick TMNT project is announced. They keep getting black eyes, but they don't leave. "Battered wives", the whole lot'a ya. If it weren't true, I wouldn't say it. It's painful to watch. And t'were it up to me you all wouldn't suffer needlessly, you'd smarten up and get wise.

Nobody needs to "blow their brains out", but I do care about TMNT and I do care about movies. I think the brand deserves better, and I think Movies Should Always Be Good. They cost a lot of money, and when they suck, it's a waste of resources and a waste of everyone's time who worked on or watched them. And it's vulgar to waste time and it's vulgar to waste money. And it's not necessary; most movies are only Good or Bad because of the care involved in their crafting. Literally ALL you have to do is care sincerely about the results and not the money, and things will generally turn out alright. Start counting the money before you put pen to paper, you're gonna turn out a piece of sh*t, every time. It's something you notice after a while when you really pay attention to this sh*t.

Meanwhile, it's a good brand (or was) that deserves a lot more than it's been given recently. And it's not gonna improve because Nick Doesn't Get It. They only bought the property so they could make it stupid and give kids something to drool over in between Spongebob. It ought to be worth more than that. Never, ever again, though. "You shouldn't care so much." Well, I do. Boo-hoo. I can't help but die a little bit inside when I see things that once had at least a little bit of genuine integrity in their DNA become just another jetski payment for some suit.

Expecting people to Always Aim High and giving them sh*t for not trying isn't a crime. It's what most people should be doing. Nobody has any standards anymore, and it's quite frankly because people aren't anywhere near as judgmental as they should be. People who haven't earned the benefit of the doubt don't deserve it. Simple as that.

I get the point you're trying to make about the other stuff, really. I will say, though, that the way you can tell "The Hangover" and "Joker" were made by the same guy, is that neither one is anywhere near as good or as clever as they each want you to think. So that's the one bit of consistency between them.

Anyway. Stop implying, be it subtly or otherwise, I have an attitude problem for telling the truth. Rather, a lot of other people should just admit this brand is being run into the ground and start fighting back instead of saying "Eh, I'll wait and see." No. Don't wait and see. The "Sausage Party" guy is running the ship for the next movie, for f*ck's sake. That's a red flag with skulls and crossbones on it, but people are acting like it's a life raft. Stop it. Y'all ain't gonna be happy until TMNT is literally f*cking Barney or some sh*t, with how it keeps getting dumber and you people keep passively going along with it. And you're gonna cry and wonder how it got like that. And I'll laugh and say I f*ckin' warned ya. If you're all perfectly fine with Less Than Mediocre out of something you used to love, something that used to be Good, then I can't help ya. But I'm not the one with the incorrect attitude.

I might be a pessimist. There's nothing wrong with that. Optimism Kills. But sure, I'm a pessimist, and proudly so. At least I'm not bleeding from the ass, which is more than most TMNT fans can say. I can spot sh*t from a mile away, which is why I can sit just fine. Don't ask me to apologize for speaking Impolite and Inconvenient Truths. I ain't here to make friends, I'm here to set people straight. Somebody gotta do it.

I'll still care? Not really. I'll just hope for it to be good and if it's not, that's too bad. I don't think it's fair to say I'd care any more than you would, seeing as we are both willing to discuss it to such great lengths. It's just not an "end of the world" scenario if I give it a chance and it disappoints, which it seems to be to you. You always talk about being a realist to avoid disappointment, and that's fair, but I don't necessarily wear that brand of armor.
Yeah, I do think it's possible that there are more good TMNT stories told. I don't think that's crazy. Franchises go through up's and down's. Even at great lengths. And it doesn't hurt to keep an open mind. I don't feel battered at all, I just ignore the stuff I don't like. It's really not a big deal.

And I thought Nick 2012 was good for the first few seasons. Really quality stuff for "all-ages". It captured the lighter side of the Mirage books pretty well.
Viacom/Nick also just recently greenlit an ending to the Urban Legends series. Do you think they did that strictly to sell toys to kids or to throw a bone to fans? It's a dirty, violent book that doesn't line up with the kiddy TMNT brand that makes big dollars. It's a cool move.
Than there is The Last Ronin and all of the awesome IDW covers we've been getting for years. Good stuff.
Batman Vs TMNT was a step in the right direction.
They've also opened up the license for collector market figures.

Those are all decisions that Nickelodeon made or approved of. If they didn't create it themselves, they handed it off to someone who would.
Sure, if you think everything TMNT since Nickelodeon took over sucks, that might be a different scenario.
I don't feel that way, so the battered wife scenario doesn't apply to me.

I'm not happy with everything that has happened with TMNT since the buyout (PD - obviously, Rise.., the handholding in the IDW comic, etc). I ignore the majority of the content (and obviously merch $$$) that has been produced since then. But they've done some good and in franchise terms, they really haven't owned it for that long. They have room to grow.

So that's my case for not automatically believing anything Nickelodeon produces under the TMNT banner will be utter ****. Not to step on your opinion, that's just where I'm coming from. Nick could be doing better with the franchise, but there has been some good stuff.

I disagree with the bolded. It is fine to "wait and see". In fact, it's more intelligent than making an assumption. That's really the crux of the discussion here for me all else be damned. If the movie appears to be crap, I won't give it any money. That's all you can really do, unless you're going to Snyder-Cut the **** out of the entire TMNT franchise and actually make something happen. Which, in that case, be my guest.

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Old 07-03-2020, 10:37 AM   #162
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Yeah, I think they were moderately flatter? Definitely agree on keeping the shells a bit flatter like that of red-eared sliders, not so bulky. The 2012 series seems to be one of the only ones to have gotten that right.
I noticed Henson's were less bulky too when I was last watching the 1990 movie.
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Old 07-03-2020, 10:46 AM   #163
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I noticed Henson's were less bulky too when I was last watching the 1990 movie.
True, you're right.

God knows why those PD films thought all Turtle shells are bulky like tortoises. Would have helped a little at least has they skipped going so bulky.
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Old 07-03-2020, 03:07 PM   #164
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I'll still care? Not really. I'll just hope for it to be good and if it's not, that's too bad. I don't think it's fair to say I'd care any more than you would, seeing as we are both willing to discuss it to such great lengths. It's just not an "end of the world" scenario if I give it a chance and it disappoints, which it seems to be to you. You always talk about being a realist to avoid disappointment, and that's fair, but I don't necessarily wear that brand of armor.
Yeah, I do think it's possible that there are more good TMNT stories told. I don't think that's crazy. Franchises go through up's and down's. Even at great lengths. And it doesn't hurt to keep an open mind. I don't feel battered at all, I just ignore the stuff I don't like. It's really not a big deal.

And I thought Nick 2012 was good for the first few seasons. Really quality stuff for "all-ages". It captured the lighter side of the Mirage books pretty well.
Viacom/Nick also just recently greenlit an ending to the Urban Legends series. Do you think they did that strictly to sell toys to kids or to throw a bone to fans? It's a dirty, violent book that doesn't line up with the kiddy TMNT brand that makes big dollars. It's a cool move.
Than there is The Last Ronin and all of the awesome IDW covers we've been getting for years. Good stuff.
Batman Vs TMNT was a step in the right direction.
They've also opened up the license for collector market figures.

Those are all decisions that Nickelodeon made or approved of. If they didn't create it themselves, they handed it off to someone who would.
Sure, if you think everything TMNT since Nickelodeon took over sucks, that might be a different scenario.
I don't feel that way, so the battered wife scenario doesn't apply to me.

I'm not happy with everything that has happened with TMNT since the buyout (PD - obviously, Rise.., the handholding in the IDW comic, etc). I ignore the majority of the content (and obviously merch $$$) that has been produced since then. But they've done some good and in franchise terms, they really haven't owned it for that long. They have room to grow.

So that's my case for not automatically believing anything Nickelodeon produces under the TMNT banner will be utter ****. Not to step on your opinion, that's just where I'm coming from. Nick could be doing better with the franchise, but there has been some good stuff.

I disagree with the bolded. It is fine to "wait and see". In fact, it's more intelligent than making an assumption. That's really the crux of the discussion here for me all else be damned. If the movie appears to be crap, I won't give it any money. That's all you can really do, unless you're going to Snyder-Cut the **** out of the entire TMNT franchise and actually make something happen. Which, in that case, be my guest.
Comic books aren't that mainstream despite the success of Comic book movies (just look at modern Comic Book sales for proof) so having a violent TMNT comic makes sense for Nick. If the comic tanks, then it's only a small part of the franchise and they wouldn't make as much money from that as say, a movie.

A dark TMNT movie will never happen (not officially anyway) because movies are mainstream and could possibly attract millions of people. If a TMNT movie tanks, it's a noticable loss compared to the comic books. Same goes for toy sales and TV ratings. It's where Nick's majority of revenue comes from
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Old 07-03-2020, 07:37 PM   #165
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Comic books aren't that mainstream despite the success of Comic book movies (just look at modern Comic Book sales for proof) so having a violent TMNT comic makes sense for Nick. If the comic tanks, then it's only a small part of the franchise and they wouldn't make as much money from that as say, a movie.

A dark TMNT movie will never happen (not officially anyway) because movies are mainstream and could possibly attract millions of people. If a TMNT movie tanks, it's a noticable loss compared to the comic books. Same goes for toy sales and TV ratings. It's where Nick's majority of revenue comes from
My point was not that the movie could end up being dark like the comic. My point was that Nickelodeon has done some good stuff since acquiring the license so I don’t feel like I’m being pummeled over and over again for being interested in modern TMNT products.

I don’t think a movie will be any darker than the first movie was, and that’s if we’re lucky. If we are going to get a gritty live-action representation, our best bet is a streaming show. That’s really my dream product for the franchise at this point.
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Old 07-03-2020, 07:48 PM   #166
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If I were gonna do anything with the franchise I wouldn't "Snyder Cut" it, I'd kill it off once and for all, frankly. Let the Good Stuff remain encased in amber so that it could remain unsullied by any future fumbling attempts which will only diminish the overall reputation of the brand. Better to let things die while they're More Good Than Bad. Doesn't mean you can't go back and still watch those things, but it's nice to remember things as being pristine.

Stuff like Star Wars and Toy Story and Jurassic Park all turned to sh*t because people didn't know when to stop milking the cow. They all shouldn't have ever been brought back just to sell more toys, it's not gonna be the same. At one point, these things were all "perfect"; now look at it. You can't say Star Wars without it being, "Three Good Movies and six crummy ones". Toy Story? Three "perfect" movies and one lousy one. Jurassic Park might be the worst offender, with ONE good movie and a lot of crap afterwards.

Wouldn't it be great to remember these things as still pristine and untouchable? Wouldn't it be great if there were no "Godfather III"? Wouldn't it be awesome to remember Elvis thin? I mean let's be real, if Kurt Cobain hadn't shot himself, Nirvana would probably be slumming it at Six Flags by now. He's only legendary because he went out at his peak, long before settling into being a parody of himself.

TMNT was great once. ONCE. And it should have stayed there so it could always be great. Now, when people say "TMNT", it's ALL crap except for "the one or two or maaaaaaybe three times when it wasn't." And that's a goddamn shame.

I say this all the time, but we don't NEED constant subpar reinventions that dilute and bastardize the greatness of any original work. No, they don't ERASE that work from existence, but they do hurt the overall reputation of A Thing once there's officially more bad than good associated with it. All anyone or anything really has is a Legacy, how we're remembered after the fact. TMNT once had a great and mostly-bulletproof "legacy". Now it's all junk except for a couple things. It's gonna go down in history as something that was Officially Stupid, except for once or twice. Boooooooo.

And it's an easily avoidable problem: Don't Be Greedy, and know when it's a good time to pull the plug before the body starts to smell.

I knowwwwwwww, not popular. "We want more toys! We love nostalgia! We've never learned how to move on and let things rest peacefully in the past where they belong because our lives lack purpose and so we seek the familiar comforts of youth!" Believe me, I get it completely.

But like the man said: "Sometimes, Dead is Bettah."
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Old 07-03-2020, 07:54 PM   #167
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I don?t think a movie will be any darker than the first movie was, and that?s if we?re lucky. If we are going to get a gritty live-action representation, our best bet is a streaming show. That?s really my dream product for the franchise at this point.
Never happen, but it'd be our best bet for anything "good" anytime soon, for sure. Someone would have to be really, really desperate for content and very sure that such a project could push a streaming service's subscriptions, though, or else they'd never be able to justify the exorbitant expense.

Snyder's JL is only happening because WB has nothing else to push HBO Max with and nobody wants HBO Max. They've already blown $300 million on JL, another $20-30 million is peanuts at this point, they've got nothing to lose on it, and if even one million people get HBO Max then whatever they put into Snyder's JL is now justified with profit.

A TMNT series would have to be in a similar "We NEED this and we're definitely gonna make money on it" position to ever get the green light, at least a live action one. Because it would inevitably be expensive. But IF? Yeah, that's the one and only chance for anything "good" to come along again.

I think a streaming show will happen at some point but I rather think it'll be another CGI or animated thing, personally. I can't see a ton of people buying any streaming service just for a TMNT show and if it's live action it'll cost too much to be worth it. But I guess it's a nice dream. I'd theoretically support the idea.
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Old 07-03-2020, 09:36 PM   #168
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I actually don’t think the Snyder-cut is a wise investment for HBO Max, but I’m glad it is happening. I just don’t think the demand and revenue brought in by people driven to the service primarily by the Snyder cut will make up for the expenses.

I think a live action streaming series is possible for TMNT. It nearly happened on Hallmark when the TMNT were at a low point in the public eye, and big budget television series are ten times more common than they were then. Lots of shifting parts in the steaming world right now and companies all want to have premium content going straight into our homes. A lot of possibilities right now so we will see.
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Old 07-03-2020, 11:23 PM   #169
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I actually don?t think the Snyder-cut is a wise investment for HBO Max
How could it possibly not be? It's this thing of 90% of footage never seen.
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Old 07-04-2020, 01:25 AM   #170
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Plus, I forget what the service supposedly costs per month, but all they need is a little over one million subscribers and they automatically made back their $20 million investment in that one project within a month. They'll get one million subscribers easily; not exclusively because of Justice League, but it'll help. It's one of the smartest business decisions they've ever made, frankly. This is easy money in the bank.
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Old 07-04-2020, 10:41 AM   #171
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Right, but if they don't get the subscribers because of Justice League, than you can't write off the expenses of Justice League with those subscribers. Those said subscribers would be coming for other projects that have their own expenses to make up for. That's not my rule, it's just math.

The more unseen footage there is, the more post production expenses there will be. Everyone involved has made it clear: there is work to be done. That is why this thing is not releasing until next year, despite how desperate MAX is for content right now. This is more ambitious than his original vision.
So "90% unseen footage" sounds good, but it's a double-edged sword in this respect.

My feeling comes from the fact that
Snyder's vision for DC wasn't accepted on a large scale by the public, so they are banking on general curiosity when it comes to non-fans. People feel burned by Zack Snyder. I think it will be one of the most pirated projects over the last few years as well, with people justifying that they already paid for this movie and were ripped off, whether that is true or not.

On the other hand, there is the possibility that this earns them some goodwill with the fans, but some of that credit will be too little too late, seeing as they've already bailed on a lot of the projects these stars were involved in.

Again, it's a unanimous win for Zach, the fans, myself included. I'm just not convinced it will be worth the expensive undertaking.

An HBO max exec even let it slip a few months ago that this thing was more expensive than the number that was making the rounds. He said something to the effect of "I WISH it cost that much".

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Old 07-04-2020, 10:54 AM   #172
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Right, but if they don't get the subscribers because of Justice League, than you can't write off the expenses of Justice League with those subscribers. Those said subscribers would be coming for other projects that have their own expenses to make up for. That's not my rule, it's just math.

The more unseen footage there is, the more post production expenses there will be. Everyone involved has made it clear: there is work to be done. This is seemingly more ambitious than his original vision.
So "90% unseen footage" sounds good, but it's a double-edged sword in this respect.

My feeling comes from the fact that
Snyder's version wasn't accepted on a large scale by the public, so they are banking on general curiosity when it comes to non-fans. I think it will be one of the most pirated projects over the last few years as well, with people justifying that they already paid for this movie and were ripped off, whether that is true or not.

On the other hand, there is the possibility that this earns them some goodwill with the fans, but some of that credit will be too little too late, seeing as they've already bailed on a lot of the projects these stars were involved in.

Again, it's a unanimous win for Zach, the fans, myself included. I'm just not convinced it will be worth the expensive undertaking.

An HBO ma. Exec even let it slip a few months ago that this thing was more expensive than the number that was making the rounds. He said something to the effect of "I WISH it cost that much".
What about those of us who are big superhero fans but generally find superhero movies, particularly in the last decade, to be not worth the celluloid they're printed on? I've watched all the DCU and Marvel films, unfortunately. Are we supposed to get excited over a new cut of a film that generally was awful but had some decent acting? If it's 90% new footage (and it won't be) that doesn't change the fact that the film was miscast, had pacing and plot issues and presented the Justice League in name only.

I guess if they hype it up tho, droves of superhero fans will flock to the theater because of loyalty and battered wife syndrome.
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Old 07-05-2020, 02:51 AM   #173
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At this point I'm going to be optimistic and hope for the best. If it's good, great. If it's bad then I'll just ignore it like the PD movies and Rise series. I still have the IDW series I'm enjoying and the old stuff I like isn't going anywhere. At this point I've accepted most of what they do isn't going to be aimed at me and I've made peace with that.

On the Snyder JL thing it makes sense as HBO Max badly needs original content. It's a big, iconic brand and can be mostly completed whilst Hollywood is shut down. I do believe the Snyder Cut fanbase is more vocal than it is large, not saying it's small but reading some comments online you'd think this was the second coming of Snyder's DCEU, people seem to have forgotten that the general audience rejecting his vision is what led to the JL mess in the first place. In terms of publicity for HBO Max it's probably already justified the expense and I can see him getting a season 2 to complete his intended arc on HBO Max but I don't believe he will get any influence on the future direction of the universe on the big screen.

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Old 07-05-2020, 06:39 PM   #174
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Regarding cost of Zack Snyder's JL:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/observe...ce-league/amp/

"Greenblatt described the process as 'a radical rethinking of that movie' and 'complicated and wildly expensive. Which is, of course, a number I won't quote...I'll just say I wish it was $30 million and stop there.'"

This isn't going to be easy to make back, especially after the reception Zack Snyder's previous work received from the general audience.


Aside from that, It sure has gotten a lot of publicity lately so hopefully that helps it out. I'm very much looking forward to watching this from my couch. What a treat.
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Old 07-05-2020, 07:11 PM   #175
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Well either they sincerely think they'll make their money back or somebody got a BJ, I'unno what to tell you. Things like this don't happen if they think they're gonna LOSE money, that's all I know. It wasn't a knee-jerk decision after all. People don't just do the exact opposite of what they spend years saying they're gonna do (or not do). Not unless someone expects big returns.

The fact that the entire narrative for the last few years was "No... no... no... no... NO.... oh, wait... Yes." kinda makes me think someone must've looked at the math before committing to the idea. There was no "creative" reason to push forward since they did all they could to bury it. To do a complete flip, someone sees bank. Nothing else makes sense.

Unless, of course, someone got a BJ. That too can change a lot of things. But I don't count on that being the answer.
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Old 07-05-2020, 07:15 PM   #176
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Well, no one ever plans to lose money in Hollywood, but we see it happen anyway. I don't see why this project would be shielded from that reality.
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Old 07-05-2020, 07:40 PM   #177
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I just feel like very few projects have had to "fight to be seen" as much as that one has, and that if they didn't see a slam dunk they wouldn't even bother with it. It's just weird. They did everything they could to discourage it. Greed is King; if they thought there was any chance of taking another loss, they'd leave it buried.

I just think that when a risk-averse company like WB, who can't take a sh*t without asking people if it's okay that they wipe too, suddenly changes their mind so completely, the only possible reason can be that Profits Are Inevitable.

There's Desperate and there's Crazy, after all. Obviously they're desperate, but taking on another sinkhole would be lunacy. I'unno, I'm inclined to think there's gotta be something about the whole thing that They Know and We Don't. Because it just doesn't make a lot of sense for them to even be doing it on any level, but they are.

If I were the guy in the office booking it, I wouldn't press ahead unless some suit showed me in black and white how we were 99% guaranteed to profit before taking on such a risky venture after years of burying it outright. Kinda feel like whoever did make the decision feels the same. WB is generally incompetent but I have to feel like someone counted ALL the beans before they committed to this.

At least, one would think/hope.
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Old 07-10-2020, 04:43 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by AquaParade View Post
I actually don?t think the Snyder-cut is a wise investment for HBO Max.
I can see why you think that, but I kinda disagree. With everything that's going on right now, studios/streaming platforms/etc. will probably be looking for ways to bring audiences "new" content in a cost effective way. Personally, I think releasing alternate cuts isn't a bad way to go.

Now keeping it exclusive to HBO Max, yeah I'm not sure about that. Maybe after some time, they can release it on physical and digital markets to keep the investment worth it.

There's also a movement to get the extended cut of Batman Forever released as well. I'm not sure if all the footage still exists. WB allegedly planned to include the 170-minute cut with the 2005 special edition DVD release, but only offered some of the footage as a separate feature. But hey, if it is somehow feasible, I'm all for it. Give me all the alternate cuts! I eat that stuff up.
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Old 07-11-2020, 11:15 AM   #179
mikey0
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This new CGI movie will most likely be a number-one movie at the box office for a week or two like the Bayverse movies, but I doubt it will be as good as TMNT The Movie from 1990. I think TMNT The Movie will go down in history as the greatest TMNT film. Still, it?s good to hear that there will be more TMNT movies. It would be nice if they touched on the original Playmates toyline universe. I don?t think they will, but I would love that.
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Old 07-11-2020, 12:08 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey0 View Post
This new CGI movie will most likely be a number-one movie at the box office for a week or two like the Bayverse movies, but I doubt it will be as good as TMNT The Movie from 1990. I think TMNT The Movie will go down in history as the greatest TMNT film. Still, it?s good to hear that there will be more TMNT movies. It would be nice if they touched on the original Playmates toyline universe. I don?t think they will, but I would love that.
That depends if there are any bigger movies being released at the same time. The 2007 movie was only at number 1 for a week and went down to 4 in it's 2nd week in the US. In the UK it only got to number 2 because the 300 got to number 1 because it came out at the same time.

I found this, it could be the release date. Untitled Paramount Animation July 22nd 2022.

(Under spoilers due to pic being big)

Spoiler:



https://pro.imdb.com/company/co00234...ojo_rs_table_4

But I expect it will change to a later date due to the virus and other movie release dates being delayed.
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Last edited by Vicky82; 07-11-2020 at 12:27 PM.
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