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Old 06-02-2020, 11:51 AM   #61
AquaParade
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I try to avoid hyperbole, but I do think Justice League is especially bad. It's a tie between that and Suicide Squad for worst movies I can remember seeing in recent years. Their quality reminds me of when I catch a glimpse of "The Kardashians" or something while at a friend's place. I'm reminded that they still make content as crappy as I remember from childhood. It's not that all the movies I like are high art, I just think these two are bad enough that they make me feel bad. Just another subjective opinion though, quite honestly.

I'd also agree with Leo that the quality of most movies these days are exaggerated one way or another. The thing is, even in Justice League, I can find plenty to enjoy, if I am willing to. Certain characters, costume designs, maybe bits of music. It's crude to call it trash. Although, then again, the final product certainly is questionable on more than just an artistic standpoint. There's the egregious studio interference to consider.

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Old 06-02-2020, 11:58 AM   #62
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It was just such a patchwork quilt of nonsense. I enjoy most of it unironically, like the Superman stuff is good enough to justify it on its own, but I pretty much like everyone in it and the fight scenes are pretty good.

But the Scotch tape is goddamn everywhere and it really breaks my heart, because it didn't have to be SUCH an obvious rush-job (the final product, at least; the final cut was arranged in a panic but they'd been working on the movie for two whole years by then, so the problems they faced at the 11th hour were entirely of the studio's own making).

Even when he stepped away from the project, Zack strongly advised them to push the release back until March of the following year, once he knew how much retooling they were going to do. Pretty sure I heard even Whedon pushed for that. The WB suits wanted their quarterly bonuses, so they stapled the final cut together and rushed it out the door, bad Superman CGI and all. Every single person involved knew it wasn't finished, but they did it anyway.

The WHY of it all, to me, is so much more tragic than the finished product. Frankly, I'm amazed the thing even stands up on its own power, given that it's held up by f*cking toothpicks.

Like, anyone can hate on Snyder's style if they're a person who's simply not into it, but his movies are meticulous, maybe to a fault at times. Every single frame of footage and every note of the score is arranged and assembled to a specific purpose, with absolutely nothing done carelessly, and even if you don't dig his aesthetic, any objective viewer would have to admit that there's a "slickness", a smoothness to his work. "Justice League" is a choppy, borderline ugly film by comparison, with all of its bad CGI and inconsistent framing of shots exposing the hastily spliced-in reshoot footage, despite the oversaturated color palette doing its best to pick up the slack. You can still see the strings.

You go from working with a guy who'll take five years to make a movie if that's what it takes to nail everything down, and then you pivot to just trying to smash parts together and ship it out the door before Christmas. Just a really lousy and unfortunate situation.
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Old 06-02-2020, 12:13 PM   #63
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I try to avoid hyperbole, but I do think Justice League is especially bad. It's a tie between that and Suicide Squad for worst movies I can remember seeing in recent years. Their quality reminds me of when I catch a glimpse of "The Kardashians" or something while at a friend's place. I'm reminded that they still make content as crappy as I remember from childhood. It's not that all the movies I like are high art, I just think these two are bad enough that they make me feel bad. Just another subjective opinion though, quite honestly.

I'd also agree with Leo that the quality of most movies these days are exaggerated one way or another. The thing is, even in Justice League, I can find plenty to enjoy, if I am willing to. Certain characters, costume designs, maybe bit's of music. It's crude to call it trash. Although, then again, the final product certainly is questionable on more than just an artistic standpoint. There's the egregious studio interference to consider.
I enjoyed Suicide Squad in theaters. It's only on repeat viewings I realized it had serious issues.

Justice League bored me in theaters. Never bothered to watch it again.
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Old 06-02-2020, 12:21 PM   #64
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It was just such a patchwork quilt of nonsense. I enjoy most of it unironically, like the Superman stuff is good enough to justify it on its own, but I pretty much like everyone in it and the fight scenes are pretty good.

But the Scotch tape is goddamn everywhere and it really breaks my heart, because it didn't have to be SUCH an obvious rush-job (the final product, at least; the final cut was arranged in a panic but they'd been working on the movie for two whole years by then, so the problems they faced at the 11th hour were entirely of the studio's own making).

Even when he stepped away from the project, Zack strongly advised them to push the release back until March of the following year, once he knew how much retooling they were going to do. Pretty sure I heard even Whedon pushed for that. The WB suits wanted their quarterly bonuses, so they stapled the final cut together and rushed it out the door, bad Superman CGI and all. Every single person involved knew it wasn't finished, but they did it anyway.

The WHY of it all, to me, is so much more tragic than the finished product. Frankly, I'm amazed the thing even stands up on its own power, given that it's held up by f*cking toothpicks.

Like, anyone can hate on Snyder's style if they're a person who's simply not into it, but his movies are meticulous, maybe to a fault at times. Every single frame of footage and every note of the score is arranged and assembled to a specific purpose, with absolutely nothing done carelessly, and even if you don't dig his aesthetic, any objective viewer would have to admit that there's a "slickness", a smoothness to his work. "Justice League" is a choppy, borderline ugly film by comparison, with all of its bad CGI and inconsistent framing of shots exposing the hastily spliced-in reshoot footage, despite the oversaturated color palette doing its best to pick up the slack. You can still see the strings.

You go from working with a guy who'll take five years to make a movie if that's what it takes to nail everything down, and then you pivot to just trying to smash parts together and ship it out the door before Christmas. Just a really lousy and unfortunate situation.
Yup. The studio bonus ordeal is just classic. Will make for a great geek-culture trivia fact in the coming years.

I think you've hit on one of the reasons I am able to enjoy Zack Snyder's films, despite the personal issues I have with them, and that is the obvious care and love he puts into his work.
First and foremost, I enjoy the visuals, music, and fight scenes, or I'd have to "blow this popsicle stand", but I think the obvious devotion to the final product helps seal the deal.

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I enjoyed Suicide Squad in theaters. It's only on repeat viewings I realized it had serious issues.

Justice League bored me in theaters. Never bothered to watch it again.
Funny. I had the opposite experience with those two, but neither help up for me, either way, at the end of the day.
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Old 06-02-2020, 12:27 PM   #65
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Squad's fine if you just take it as a romp and don't ask for too much past seeing everyone ham it up.

I can forgive a lot sometimes if the people in the movie are clearly having a good time. Everyone did their character really well, it's just another movie that was kind of clumsily written and then even more clumsily retrofitted into a completely different movie partway through. There was supposed to be a whole subplot at one point surrounding the Mother Boxes being the cause of everything bad that was going on, to more directly foreshadow Justice League. Just one example of several of how the overall project was changed at several key junctures. But again, as entirely its own thing and most likely the most prominent showcase most of these characters are ever going to get in a film, it's a passable way to spend two hours if you're not expecting Shakespeare.
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Old 06-02-2020, 03:26 PM   #66
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Gotta love their stupid excuse of 'what is Superman one day decides to start trouble' and their solution is to assemble of group of super VILLIANS that even combined wouldn't have the power to stop an evil Superman anyway.
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Old 06-02-2020, 04:29 PM   #67
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I enjoyed Suicide Squad in theaters. It's only on repeat viewings I realized it had serious issues.
So, we?re you drunk or high at the theater? It’s an unwatchable mess, and it took you more than a single viewing to see that?

Maybe Ayer had a better film, when it was his cut, but I’ve seen his other work, and Hack doesn’t even begin to cover it. If he gets to release his version, maybe it will be better, maybe it will be even worse.


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Justice League bored me in theaters. Never bothered to watch it again.
You all keep blaming Whedon. Snyder isn’t slick, nor smart, nor interesting. He’s the guy at a party that uses a catch phrase 6 months past it’s expiration date. He’s the guy who’s still listening to puddle of mud, and supports Christian Rock. He’s convinced the smartest thing you can do with Superman is to make him just like anybody else, burdened by his powers. He’s only interested in deconstruction, which is the same sin you’ve all railed against for last jedi.

And again, THIS is why you’ll be disappointed, this is the core of the problem. It didn’t work before, It will not work now, unless of course, you?re spite-liking the thing, to be contrarian.

I mean sure, wear that mantle, and maybe, you’ll convince yourself on the day, that it’s great. Later, in your quiet moments, that feeling will give way, and the realization that you’ve been had will set in.
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Old 06-02-2020, 05:03 PM   #68
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blah blah blah
And here I thought the target of this thread was Leo. Lucky me.

Swayed by the crowd high at Suicide Squad. It was a pretty fun time in the theater.

I enjoyed around 3/4 of Man of Steel, and 3/5 of Batman V Superman. Never bored in it, either. Personal taste, fella.
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Old 06-02-2020, 06:29 PM   #69
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And here I thought the target of this thread was Leo. Lucky me.

Swayed by the crowd high at Suicide Squad. It was a pretty fun time in the theater.

I enjoyed around 3/4 of Man of Steel, and 3/5 of Batman V Superman. Never bored in it, either. Personal taste, fella.
You're making my point. Man, you claim a lot of victimization. I'm singling out what you said, because it supports the underlying thesis of the thread, nothing more.

You'd have to be under some kind of influence to objectively think Suicide squad was an intelligible/satisfying story, and you know it.

BVS had a ton of problems, but if what you wanted was an elseworlds story about why humanity is composed of terrible people and terrible things, where even heroes are broken, sloppy, and even drunk, then you got it.

It's an angle, but really boring if you ask me, and honestly, done much better in THE BOYS, so much so that Snyder has nothing left to say. What The Boys did right, was to not label the heroes with known monikers, it was its own thing. Very smart. Bright Burn was more in line with Snyder - violence and action that were boring.

I'll take the plane scene in The Boys, over any other plane scene in any CB movie.

And it wasn't desaturated and cross-processed and ugly and try-hard. It was honest and effective. Snyder can't get there.
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Old 06-02-2020, 07:56 PM   #70
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my blushes, Watson
It's okay if you have a hard-on for me. I'm flattered, and it's perfectly understandable.
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Old 06-02-2020, 08:36 PM   #71
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Tommy, I think your attitude towards this whole thing is crappier than any DCEU film. I don't mean to be a jerk - I think you have an interesting perspective to share and can articulate a good point. I think you go about it in the wrong way by acting abrasive and also being a bit arrogant in your opinion. Objectivity in film will only take you so far. It's fine to critique but let people enjoy things.
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Old 06-03-2020, 02:41 AM   #72
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Tommy, I think your attitude towards this whole thing is crappier than any DCEU film. I don't mean to be a jerk - I think you have an interesting perspective to share and can articulate a good point. I think you go about it in the wrong way by acting abrasive and also being a bit arrogant in your opinion. Objectivity in film will only take you so far. It's fine to critique but let people enjoy things.
Film enjoyment is subjective, as in "my favorite film is...".
There are objectively bad films. I'm not saying Snyders work is objectively bad, I'm saying, he tried to make a point, and it was sloppy. A few years later, The Boys made that same point, effectively, like a freaking laser.

Look, I get it, they're getting the band back together. That's super exciting for everyone who feel like the ultimate DC film was ripped away from them by the big mean monsters at WB. I think, maybe, what noboy is actually considering, is that it was actually unwatchable. All A list people have a stinker in them, maybe JL was that big stinker.

We've all been on blind dates, set up by well meaning friends who convince us that this one, this one is just the hottest, most incredible , blah blah blah... or I know the BEST hamburger joint, you have to try it... We all have those friends.

He-man is about to go through the same damned thing, only, so far the press has been crapping all over Smith, and nobody's seen a damned thing.
I was there the first time Superman Died, the big news all over TV's everywhere, the book selling millions of copies, only for the incredible backlash to HOW he died.

This folks, is excatly why I say "you people".

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