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Old 05-10-2017, 03:41 PM   #61
CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
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They're most likely not going to, a lot of people seem like they would much rather watch a movie or a TV-show adaptation than go and read the book or comic it's based on, even if they ended up liking the adaptation they aren't interested in reading. "Walking Dead" and "A Song of Ice and Fire" had both been running for years before their TV adaptations, yet do ever hear anyone talk about the source material?
ALL the time. If you haven't heard anyone talking about them, your friends must not read much.

Or maybe my friends just read abnormal amounts of books and comics... which isn't unlikely given my social circles.

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I think where we differ in thought is how we view turtle media trends. It's been a bit of a rollercoaster from the beginning. Highs during certain movies, shows, and comic runs, and lows during others. I don't think I'd say that things have been mostly downhill (where we differ). The comic has been pretty consistently enjoyable. I enjoy the show and it has seen pretty good success. The PD movies...ok, so it's not all sunshine and rainbows in turtle land, but we've received some good quality stuff in recent years, which in turn has turned more people on to the older stuff, which gives me more people to talk to about a hobby I like quite a bit. Again, that's something that wouldn't be attainable if things fell to obscurity long ago.

And it may be somewhat easy getting friends to get into things that you find interesting off a simple recommendation, but getting your kids interested is a different story. Kids tend to be into whatever is hot at the moment; whatever their friends are into.

My kids likely won't see the appeal of the '87 TMNT cartoon, Family Matters, Beetlejuice, or anything else I watched when I was little. That principle applies to why I never watched Happy Days, Three's Company, or Dallas. Could be quality shows, but my friends had no interest, so I didn't either. Kids tend to have herd mentality sometimes.

Maybe when they're older...
Personal taste aside, I feel like the trend is downward for fans who came in back in the Mirage days. BUT the downward trend has upticks with each new resurgence of TMNT.

Give the cartoons long enough, and they get pretty bad. Fred Wolf, but I'm obviously a hater; 4Kids and Nick both lost their way as well... or, if you enjoyed the later seasons of both shows, you probably will admit that the shows radically changed the formula a couple of times to try to stay "fresh" with debatable effect.

When 4Kids was going well, we had Volume 4 and Tales Volume 2 going strong and a CGI movie. When Nick was going stronger, we had (still have!) IDW comics and a couple of movies. But when the toys stop selling, the entire franchise starts sliding downhill again.

Aside from an enterprising filmmaker doing a truly good film series with a more Mirage-esque tone, I don't think we're going to make any progress back up the hill with the next iteration.
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Old 05-10-2017, 03:44 PM   #62
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When 4Kids was going well, we had Volume 4 and Tales Volume 2 going strong and a CGI movie.
God, I would take those days back, hand over fist. Warts and all.
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Old 05-10-2017, 03:46 PM   #63
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I know a ton of people talking about the source material of those and comparing. Plenty of "The books are so much better!" grumblers about GoT and a lot of people saying, "It's an odd example where the show is way better than the books." Walking Dead, plenty of fans out there. Before Negan debuted on the show Facebook was afire with comic fans getting super excited because of what he does in the comics.
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Or maybe my friends just read abnormal amounts of books and comics... which isn't unlikely given my social circles.
To be fair, I don't live in the US, so it might be more common to actually bother reading the source material there.

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God, I would take those days back, hand over fist. Warts and all.
Why were they better in your opinion?
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Turtles is basically the red-headed stepchild of Nick.
Hahahaha!
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Old 05-10-2017, 03:48 PM   #64
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God, I would take those days back, hand over fist. Warts and all.
I think a LOT of us would. Back when we were all younger, the future seemed so bright, and the franchise was still going strong. *sigh*
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Old 05-10-2017, 03:51 PM   #65
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ALL the time. If you haven't heard anyone talking about them, your friends must not read much.

Or maybe my friends just read abnormal amounts of books and comics... which isn't unlikely given my social circles.



Personal taste aside, I feel like the trend is downward for fans who came in back in the Mirage days. BUT the downward trend has upticks with each new resurgence of TMNT.

Give the cartoons long enough, and they get pretty bad. Fred Wolf, but I'm obviously a hater; 4Kids and Nick both lost their way as well... or, if you enjoyed the later seasons of both shows, you probably will admit that the shows radically changed the formula a couple of times to try to stay "fresh" with debatable effect.

When 4Kids was going well, we had Volume 4 and Tales Volume 2 going strong and a CGI movie. When Nick was going stronger, we had (still have!) IDW comics and a couple of movies. But when the toys stop selling, the entire franchise starts sliding downhill again.

Aside from an enterprising filmmaker doing a truly good film series with a more Mirage-esque tone, I don't think we're going to make any progress back up the hill with the next iteration.
In the case of the Nick Cartoon, I noticed it going downhill as early as season 2.
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Turtles is basically the red-headed stepchild of Nick.
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Old 05-10-2017, 04:00 PM   #66
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Why were they better in your opinion?
While I didn't enjoy it -- like, at all -- 4Kids is probably a better "face" for TMNT kids cartoons out there. I didn't love the 2007 movie, but it is leagues better than either of the PD films.

Comics-wise? There's no comparison. We had Volume 4 going strong, new tales with adult Turtles told straight from the horse's mouth. And hell, the lettercol was sometimes just as entertaining as the comics. Tales V2? What's not to love? Existing Mirage vets and up and comers playing in the Mirage TMNT sandbox? 70 issues worth? Amazing. I wish I didn't take those days for granted.

IDW is well-written, but it's basically "Nostalgia: The Ongoing Series"... the biggest points of suspense being when and how they will introduce X character from X pre-existing show/movie/thing, and seemingly cramming it with as many mutants as humanly possible (basically the antithesis of Laird's vision for TMNT). Plus Nickelodeon doesn't even let them actually get their hands dirty. It's just... not TMNT to me, or at least not any TMNT I'm interested in reading about. It's like, a TMNT franchise homage. Pretty, appealing to fans that are super into everything TMNT ever or even just Fred Wolf casuals who are content just seeing Beebop and Rocksteady and pizza again, but fundamentally flawed in my book.

IDW is savvy, though. Mirage could have benefitted greatly from the level of their editorial and marketing teams.

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Old 05-10-2017, 11:46 PM   #67
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I'm still not 100% clear...what exactly were you guys wanting explained?

Are you guys wanting an explanation for the change in his look between movies? Or is the assumption that he died in the 1st movie and he's inexplicably back in the 2nd?
Well as already answered by IndigoErth it would have been very easy to at least mention this new Shredder was a replacement.

In the 2014 movie it seems that he dies but even if he didn't how is he now younger than Eric Sachs?

Recasting is not the issue. The new guy is like a totally different character. Making the new guy his son would have worked perfectly.
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Old 05-11-2017, 06:48 AM   #68
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Well as already answered by IndigoErth it would have been very easy to at least mention this new Shredder was a replacement.

In the 2014 movie it seems that he dies but even if he didn't how is he now younger than Eric Sachs?

Recasting is not the issue. The new guy is like a totally different character. Making the new guy his son would have worked perfectly.
It's funny...I'm usually very conscious of things like continuity, just not when it came to these films. The 2014 movie was so rough that I took nothing as gospel as I went into 2016. So when he's appears drastically different in 2016, I didn't think anything of it. To be honest, it's obvious in retrospect, but I didn't even notice until you guys brought it up yesterday.
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Old 05-11-2017, 07:00 AM   #69
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I just took it as that the ooze that seeped into his hand at the end of 2014 rejuvenated him, since the ooze had regenerative properties.
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Old 05-11-2017, 07:08 AM   #70
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While I didn't enjoy it -- like, at all -- 4Kids is probably a better "face" for TMNT kids cartoons out there. I didn't love the 2007 movie, but it is leagues better than either of the PD films.

Comics-wise? There's no comparison. We had Volume 4 going strong, new tales with adult Turtles told straight from the horse's mouth. And hell, the lettercol was sometimes just as entertaining as the comics. Tales V2? What's not to love? Existing Mirage vets and up and comers playing in the Mirage TMNT sandbox? 70 issues worth? Amazing. I wish I didn't take those days for granted.

IDW is well-written, but it's basically "Nostalgia: The Ongoing Series"... the biggest points of suspense being when and how they will introduce X character from X pre-existing show/movie/thing, and seemingly cramming it with as many mutants as humanly possible (basically the antithesis of Laird's vision for TMNT). Plus Nickelodeon doesn't even let them actually get their hands dirty. It's just... not TMNT to me, or at least not any TMNT I'm interested in reading about. It's like, a TMNT franchise homage. Pretty, appealing to fans that are super into everything TMNT ever or even just Fred Wolf casuals who are content just seeing Beebop and Rocksteady and pizza again, but fundamentally flawed in my book.

IDW is savvy, though. Mirage could have benefitted greatly from the level of their editorial and marketing teams.
We got to see a lot of "Laird's vision" in the 2000's...and I liked it. I don't know how everyone else feels, but I have long felt like the 2k3 series is almost like what the "Ultimate universe" was for Marvel around the same time period. It was a fresh start with many familiar characters and storylines present, but with a twist on the original. I sometimes think the 2k3 series is how Laird would have told the Mirage stories if Kevin weren't involved. Add in the Volume 4 comic and you got to see how Laird viewed the turtles 15 or so years down the line. It wasn't always the most exciting stuff, but it was certainly interesting.

With so many people working on the IDW comic, I'm not sure that comic can be considered "Kevin's vision", but he does endorse it and it has found nice success. I personally find myself more intrigued by the new characters in the comic...doesn't really blow my mind when they introduce a "classic" character. Some were done well while some were a little forced. Though I will say that while I have no real love for Bebop & Rocksteady from the 80's, I thoroughly enjoyed their introduction in the IDW series. And as far as getting their hands dirty, I think Leo not killing anyone during his stint as Dark Leo and giving him something to weigh on his conscience for a while was the biggest misstep of the first 30 issues. The turtles don't need to be non-stop murder machines, but they are trained in a deadly martial art and use deadly weapons, so I'd expect some casualties from time to time.
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:02 AM   #71
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We got to see a lot of "Laird's vision" in the 2000's...and I liked it. I don't know how everyone else feels, but I have long felt like the 2k3 series is almost like what the "Ultimate universe" was for Marvel around the same time period.
The cavalcade of toy shilling and camp and sight gags that abound each episode of 2K3, turning Mikey into Dude Mikey, insultingly bad "adaptations" of "Return to New York" and "City at War," and everything thrown in there for little kids pretty much kills it for me. Though it's nice to see little bits of Mirage flair here and there, even if it's mostly hidden under a metric ton of other rubbish.

But that's just me. I'm glad it exists, and that was the "new" TMNT cartoon for a generation in the wake of the Fred Wolf material.

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I sometimes think the 2k3 series is how Laird would have told the Mirage stories if Kevin weren't involved.
I generally agree, but minus all the kiddie schlock, most of the camp, and minus the stuff injected into the episodes just for toys.

But that's a lot of stuff.

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With so many people working on the IDW comic, I'm not sure that comic can be considered "Kevin's vision", but he does endorse it and it has found nice success.
We kind of all know what his role on the IDW book is. #1, his presence on the book in any capacity automatically gives it legitimacy for IDW. #2, he's basically an "ideas guy" that comes to the room and bounces ideas off of Waltz and probably comes up with some of the action beats. Knowing what he was pitching before IDW, I can guarantee you the parkour ninjas were 100% his idea. That kind of thing. #3, layouts, though I'm not sure if he's even doing that anymore?

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I personally find myself more intrigued by the new characters in the comic...doesn't really blow my mind when they introduce a "classic" character. Some were done well while some were a little forced. Though I will say that while I have no real love for Bebop & Rocksteady from the 80's, I thoroughly enjoyed their introduction in the IDW series.
I would have forgiven their inclusion if simply to placate the fans, but as soon as you have Karai or Shredder actively employing such characters... whatever credibility Karai and Shredder have as cunning villains goes down to 0. And I like Karai and Shredder to have credibility.

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And as far as getting their hands dirty, I think Leo not killing anyone during his stint as Dark Leo and giving him something to weigh on his conscience for a while was the biggest misstep of the first 30 issues. The turtles don't need to be non-stop murder machines, but they are trained in a deadly martial art and use deadly weapons, so I'd expect some casualties from time to time.
No consequences = no weight to anything. You can tell IDW pushed for that, though. They probably even began writing that arc with the idea that Leo would kill, then kind of were left holding the bag of **** when Nickelodeon came back with a hard "No" at the last minute.

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Old 05-12-2017, 05:17 AM   #72
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What's an OOTS? Sounds almost as stupid as Yamcha
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Old 05-12-2017, 05:25 AM   #73
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I did think the movie tried to have more heart and get "back to the roots" than the first PD film.

It honestly felt more like the TMNT than TMNT (2007) did.
TMNT 2007 was actually more like Mirage vol 4. So you either hated it, or loved it.
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Old 05-12-2017, 06:49 AM   #74
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I didn't see OOTS until I was able to get it for free from the library. Not horrible, but nothing I care to watch again.
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Old 05-12-2017, 09:34 AM   #75
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Not horrible, but nothing I care to watch again.
This sums up my feelings for the movie in a nutshell.
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Old 05-12-2017, 11:51 AM   #76
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I didn't. I watched the first film alright but had no interest in seeing the second one.
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Old 05-12-2017, 11:57 AM   #77
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TMNT 2007 was actually more like Mirage vol 4.
Eh, I would say it's the most like Mirage Vol. 4 over any of the existing 6 TMNT movies, sure, but that's not the same thing as saying it's like Mirage Vol. 4.
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Old 05-12-2017, 12:05 PM   #78
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What's an OOTS? Sounds almost as stupid as Yamcha


I didn't watch OOTS, but I also wouldn't have watched the one before it if dad hadn't grabbed it from the redbox

He may eventually grab OOTS from the redbox too if there's nothing else to watch in there and he wants a movie out of it, but I doubt it. idk maybe. He liked the first one just fine.
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Old 05-12-2017, 12:52 PM   #79
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Hey, don't mock Yamcha! He just got his own series in which it turns out he has the greatest potential of all the characters... If he knew where things would be going that is...
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Old 06-10-2017, 11:08 PM   #80
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Seen it. TMNT III is better
I just realized how true this statement is and that makes me so sad.

I went to see it at a cheap theater with a friend who is also a fan when she was visiting.

Regretted it after. This film isn't even worth watching for free in my opinion.
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