Black April

[Utrommaniac]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

Naw, y'all can't have Bebop. Nope. He's ours.
Baxter too.

Speaking of, if you a'int seen The people vs O.J. Simpson
check it out, and tell me Courtney B. Vance wouldn't have made a damn fine Mirage Baxter.

https://tribzap2it.files.wordpress.c...pg?w=769&h=432
http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/tmn...ter-mirage.jpg

Ditch the glasses, and he'd make a pretty good IDW Baxter Stockman too.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Annie was based on a comic strip character from the 1930s

I forget that a lot sometimes. For some reason, I don't connect Little Orphan Annie with the musical even though they're basically the same thing. And then I disconnect the comic from the radio show? ("Be sure to drink your Ovaltine")
But even then, Annie still had those good old Irish traits of curly red hair, when anti-Irish sentiment was at its peak. Back when Irish (and German) immigration was as despised as Middle Eastern/Mexican immigration is today.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Annie was based on a comic strip character from the 1930s

He meant the movie I think... who knows...my "Annie" knowledge is admittedly a few bars from Tomorrow and the fact that Warbucks was a dead ringer for Luthor.

You know about the Italian/Irish feuds right?

I thought you were from Boston...

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

No, Bebop HAS to be black. If he's white that ruins everything.

Bebop has been black in every incarnation:

- Original cartoon
- Archie comics
- Nick cartoon
- IDW comics
- Platinum Dunes movies

That's 5 versions of human Bebop we've seen and he's the same black guy with a purple mohawk in shades in all of them. Bebop being black is iconic.

I know that Cubed. I was only stating an example. Just like people seem to easy to dismiss April as 'she can be black because nowhere in her history or backstory does it say she has to be white' the same can apply to Bebop where nothing in his backstory says he has to be black.

Leave April white, leave Bebop black and just create new and awesome characters of other races like Angel.

[Utrommaniac]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

You know about the Italian/Irish feuds right?

I thought you were from Boston...

Nah, I've never even been to Boston...but I did have an AP US History class in high school, so I learned quite a lot about that nasty time of 1930's immigration issues. Of which, now that you remind me, the Italians were included in. But that was in 2010/2011, so my memories of that are a little fuzzy.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by Utrommaniac

Nah, I've never even been to Boston...but I did have an AP US History class in high school, so I learned quite a lot about that nasty time of 1930's immigration issues. Of which, now that you remind me, the Italians were included in. But that was in 2010/2011, so my memories of that are a little fuzzy.

Sorry - the Boston thing was aimed @plastron, whom i'm sure must have run up against some of the hostility between said groups.

Maybe that's an old thing, been years since my last visit.

But yeah, the orange hair kids are universally hated, so, to be inclusive, April should totally be a ging...er...Irish.

Check out a clip here: Vance is intense.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

How would such a change make her worse?
It wouldn't.

And how would such a change make her better? It wouldn't. Therefore, it'd be a pointless change.

Originally Posted by Utrommaniac

YES. And anti-Irish sentiments still exist in small corners of the world. Mostly in Europe. There's a lot of patches of Europe that have white people scrutinized by other white people (the Romani being a well-known example-or are technically white, just on the tan side). This is why Annie had curly red hair and freckles in the original movie. Because when it was first made, in 1982, red haired and freckled children were "undesirable" in the world of adopting children. Since this no longer exists (sort of), it made sense to transfer that to a black girl in the remake.
It would make sense for Laird to want April to be Irish because in his schooldays, Irish people would have been on the same level as black people in terms of prejudice. Or at least at the end of that period in the US.

I find it amazing how few white people there are in TMNT. April and Casey are the only two in the "major character" category. Maybe Rocksteady counts too. But other than that? Japanese or mutants that were originally animals. Granted, FW also had Vernon and Bern, and maybe Irma (though she could also be ethnically Jewish considering her last name).

Where in Europe are the Irish victims of discrimination nowadays? Maybe in some places in England but in other European countries? Never heard of such thing. The Irish don't immigrate nowadays. Their country is fairly prosperous.

And the Gypsies aren't considered White because they're not an indigenous European "tribe". They came from India several centuries ago and have kept mostly to themselves. Rarely will a Gypsy marry outside of his/her community. If you walked past a suit wearing Gypsy you'd probably think he was an Indian or a Pakistani.

And Gypsies are hated for a lot of things. It's become a sort of chicken/egg sort of thing. But it's best not to talk about it in this thread.

[Commenter 42]

So, it's settled. April is clearly a Gypsy.

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

So, it's settled. April is clearly a Gypsy.

Could be a Irish Traveler.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

Could be a Irish Traveler.

Touché.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Y'know, I'm in the camp of "her race doesn't need changing" here, for much the same reason as most others in that camp. Mainly being:

!. Changing a character's race "just because/diversity!" is really stupid and lazy. It's pointless and adds nothing to the character of value. In fact, I'd say it detracts from the character. It is jarring for fans (and even casual readers/watchers) to suddenly see a character they have come to know as one thing suddenly be something else. Suddenly, that character becomes very different when portrayed in movies or cartoons, as having her be black in a movie would mean that she would be portrayed by a black actress- which automatically makes her VERY different from every other version of the character by default.

2: More importantly, changing racial identity of a fictional character changes EVERYTHING about who that character IS!! Can't stress this enough. A black or Asian April would be VERY different from one whose roots are Irish or at least Caucasian. It changes how she grew up, her cultural background, literally EVERYTHING about her past. As a simple example, an Asian April would have grown up with Asian culture and history, with the expectations and familial hierarchy that goes with that. A Latina April would most likely have a large family and be Catholic, with all that those things imply. Changing her to a Middle Eastern or Indian woman would change her background and outlook even more! Why would anyone want to change who the character IS, by changing who they WERE?! I makes no sense at all, from a logical and story-telling standpoint. The way they are raised and taught, what expectations are put on them by friends and family as a child, EVERYTHING would change, making them that character IN NAME ONLY.

3: Ret-cons in general DO NOT WORK. I can't stress how often I've seen continuity and character growth or development go right out the window because of a ret-con changing some aspect of their background or some event in the story. Even in a "new" incarnation, it would change what fans and the public understand about that character's role in the story, or how they view them personally. Not to mention the fact that while SOME might identify with the new race, others would be less likely to do so, and it loses a lot of fans. EVERY TIME. We saw it happen with Fan4stic, and it was a HUGE mistake. Changing Johnny (and his dad) changed who he was as a character, and even though it was a "new" version, it rang false to the character's established personality and background. IT was not Jonny the show-boating, flirty irresponsible playboy from the comics and first movies, it was just some guy they gave his name to. With NONE of the character traits he should have had, because he was different on EVERY level. Because they decided to make him black "for diversity". And it FAILED.

There are plenty of other examples off why this idea is fundamentally flawed, but I think it's clear that changing April's race (even if it was originally vaguely ambiguous) would do NOTHING positive for the character or her role in the story, and would alienate too many fans. Also, I would like to add here that even though we are talking about fictional characters, they are still PEOPLE, first and foremost. People in the real world don't/can't change their race, ethnicity, or skin color out of the blue for no reason, and neither should people in a fictional world- at least not if you want it to be realistic and believable!

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

...

I agree with this completely.


April should be Japanese. The end.

[CyberCubed]

April is a white girl with brown or red hair. That is all.

[Commenter 42]

April is a month in the year.

Over and out.

[The Big Bad]

Anybody watching the new Preacher series, on AMC? It's based on the 90's comic book of the same name, and one of the best things about it is Tulip O'Hare played by Ethiopian-Irish actress Ruth Negga.



(Black Irish people aren't a myth? ZOMG!!)


Anyways, the character was white in the original comics, and I'm super glad they didn't feel constrained by that, because Negga is amazing in the role--I can't find a clip of her whole introduction scene, where Tulip kills a man in a cornfield, is adorable with a couple of kids, cobbles together a bazooka everyday household objects and uses it to shoot down a helicopter, which is sad because everyone should see it. She is by far my top pick for an actress to play April, a role she is absolutely perfect for--at worst, she'd elevate an underwritten role and look hot while doing it; at best, with the right script to back her, she'd imbue April with the weight she has often been lacking in. And yet, Hollywood would never consider her--[ETA: or actresses like Candice Patton, Gina Rodríguez, or Freema Agyeman, all of which would be fantastic]--for the role, because they're stuck with their limited idea of who April should be. And that's one of the reasons this idea that April must absolutely always be white is actively harmful: it prevents people from seeing all the possibilities inherent in the character. And it's not limited entirely to acting, either--although intentionally shrinking one's potential pool of actors is a big enough issue in and of itself--but also to the characters as conceived as written.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

2: More importantly, changing racial identity of a fictional character changes EVERYTHING about who that character IS!! Can't stress this enough. A black or Asian April would be VERY different from one whose roots are Irish or at least Caucasian. It changes how she grew up, her cultural background, literally EVERYTHING about her past. As a simple example, an Asian April would have grown up with Asian culture and history, with the expectations and familial hierarchy that goes with that. A Latina April would most likely have a large family and be Catholic, with all that those things imply. Changing her to a Middle Eastern or Indian woman would change her background and outlook even more! Why would anyone want to change who the character IS, by changing who they WERE?! I makes no sense at all, from a logical and story-telling standpoint. The way they are raised and taught, what expectations are put on them by friends and family as a child, EVERYTHING would change, making them that character IN NAME ONLY.

Let's say they're right--they're not, since people of color aren't stereotypes and can actually be diverse and have multiple dimensions--but let's actually go with a Latina April who has a large family and is Catholic: what exactly would be wrong with that? How does that prevent her from being the scientist or reporter or friend to the turtles? In fact, it actually makes her a more defined character than she often is! It gives writers far more to work with than "white woman with no context, who has X job because script". An April who is a devout Catholic and who suddenly has to deal with mutants altering her conceptions of the world and family is actually really interesting! Heck, boil down every version of April to a conceptual level, and she's easily the most interesting one! Or, to put it another way, what has April being white ever added to the character?

(And yes, one could in theory add similar contexts and dimensions to a white April. Very few incarnations have done so, resulting in many many versions of April, few, if any, which are anyone's favorite character in a particular version of the turtles. If making April a woman of color is what it takes to actually get writers to think about the character, then, by all means, bring it on.)

[neatoman]

Ruth... Negga... An actress of Ethiopian descent is named... Negga...

... That's a kind of funny coincidence but I won't try to make any puns about it, that would probably be a little too crude.

[plastroncafe]

What I wouldn't give for an interesting and competently written April.

But that would kind of require anyone involved with the franchise being capable of what is seemingly a Herculean effort.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Ruth... Negga... An actress of Ethiopian descent is named... Negga...

... That's a kind of funny coincidence but I won't try to make any puns about it, that would probably be a little too crude.

I had no idea she was playing that character. I would have liked to have seen a white blonde Tulip O'Hare. Oh well, maybe one day when they adapt the comics again. Dominic Cooper also looks wrong as The Preacher, too thin.

[Ninturtle]

Originally Posted by The Big Bad

Anybody watching the new Preacher series, on AMC? It's based on the 90's comic book of the same name, and one of the best things about it is Tulip O'Hare played by Ethiopian-Irish actress Ruth Negga.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y1/...psiaofly4x.jpg

(Black Irish people aren't a myth? ZOMG!!)


Anyways, the character was white in the original comics, and I'm super glad they didn't feel constrained by that, because Negga is amazing in the role--I can't find a clip of her whole introduction scene, where Tulip kills a man in a cornfield, is adorable with a couple of kids, cobbles together a bazooka everyday household objects and uses it to shoot down a helicopter, which is sad because everyone should see it. She is by far my top pick for an actress to play April, a role she is absolutely perfect for--at worst, she'd elevate an underwritten role and look hot while doing it; at best, with the right script to back her, she'd imbue April with the weight she has often been lacking in. And yet, Hollywood would never consider her for the role, because they're stuck with their limited idea of who April should be. And that's one of the reasons this idea that April must absolutely always be white is actively harmful: it prevents people from seeing all the possibilities inherent in the character. And it's not limited entirely to acting, either--although intentionally shrinking one's potential pool of actors is a big enough issue in and of itself--but also to the characters as conceived as written.



Let's say they're right--they're not, since people of color aren't stereotypes and can actually be diverse and have multiple dimensions--but let's actually go with a Latina April who has a large family and is Catholic: what exactly would be wrong with that? How does that prevent her from being the scientist or reporter or friend to the turtles? In fact, it actually makes her a more defined character than she often is! It gives writers far more to work with than "white woman with no context, who has X job because script". An April who is a devout Catholic and who suddenly has to deal with mutants altering her conceptions of the world and family is actually really interesting! Heck, boil down every version of April to a conceptual level, and she's easily the most interesting one! Or, to put it another way, what has April being white ever added to the character?

(And yes, one could in theory add similar contexts and dimensions to a white April. Very few incarnations have done so, resulting in many many versions of April, few, if any, which are anyone's favorite character in a particular version of the turtles. If making April a woman of color is what it takes to actually get writers to think about the character, then, by all means, bring it on.)

But what does the race change of Tulip do for the characters except make her look less like her comic counter part?

[ToTheNines]

Everything Big Bad said. April has basically never been an interesting character, so I don't see why anyone would feel compelled to cling to any particular ethnicity for her.

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by Ninturtle

But what does the race change of Tulip do for the characters except make her look less like her comic counter part?

She was the best actor for the job.