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Old 12-20-2014, 10:35 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davetello View Post
Or perhaps you didn't have faith this time because it didn't suit your agenda. You seem to have plenty of faith in the intentions of the various man-hating sociopaths who populate the site.
What on earth are you talking about? Why would any man haters be fans of a franchise where the majority of the main characters are male? Probably the people you are referring to just hate stupid men.

As for gay Turtle, I think it always awkwards things up when the Turtles have romantic/sexual interests in general. It distracts from their dynamic which I so enjoy. Donatello for example is the most annoying thing ever in Nick. But yeah any one of the Turtles could be gay as far as I'm concerned. I guess particularly Mikey or Raph based on stereotypes.
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Old 12-20-2014, 11:14 AM   #42
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Dave/Net: Relax a little bit. You're two of my favs and we can give each other some friendly jabs now and again but this is something that kinda "should be" discussed and I'd hate to see it get shut down because a personal issue from another thread gets dragged into it. I'm actually hoping this can stay semi-civil even if people don't agree. It can happen. I... think?

Anyways... I liked that "marketing" answer. That one made me snicker. I guess if one of them was gay they'd have to broadcast it everywhere instead of just letting it be a natural extension of their character? Like how in the new movie, Donnie was so blatantly "the nerd", but if he was gay, they'd have to stick "The Gay One" under his name on every poster and marketing sheet. I kinda don't think so.

XAV: I wanna see some proof behind those numbers. I... kinda don't buy it. Sounds ridiculously low. Now, if we're gonna say that that's the percentage of people in America who ADMIT to being gay... well, that I can almost believe. Lots of people are scared to admit it. Wonder why.

Freddie Mercury continued to have affairs with women after he "came out" or whatever. He is generally referred to as gay but he swung both. He referred to his best friend Mary as "his wife" until the end of his life, even though it was kind of a joking term. Point being, he was kind of all over the place. Good for him, way to live out loud.

I don't think it would be at all "forced". "Forced", to me, is the way the Donnie/April thing has been done in the Nick show. THAT, to me, seems forced, at least the way they've handled it. You know what *wouldn't* seem forced (at least if this was anywhere other than the Nick show)? Donnie realizing that he only went after April so hard because he wasn't yet sure of his sexuality, was "afraid" he might be gay, so threw himself full-force at the very first female he ever met just to *prove* to himself he was hetero, and after she "breaks his heart", he eventually realizes he never was into her for the right reasons anyway, and realizes he's actually gay or bi. I can't even tell you how many guys I personally have known who played a similar scene out in real life. I remember in high school, everyone was super-jealous of the guy who dated the head cheerleader/hottest girl in school. Dated for years. Went on vacation to the Bahamas; she thought he was gonna propose, instead he broke up with her because he "realized" he was as queer as a box of birds. Just one example of many.

I get the "Turtles shouldn't be with anyone period" argument but I don't agree with it. And again, the entire franchise is about a message of tolerance. It's really the ideal place for this kind of thing, and the message is diluted when they're "allowed" to have a made-up secondary character who only exists to be "the gay character" rather than one of the guys. "They can have an extraneous 5th Turtle be gay, but not one of MY Turtles, nope nope nope!" That's... still kinda of bigoted.

There's a lot of double-talk about this issue. A lot of "I don't have a problem with it, but, ((clumsy attempts to avoid admitting "I actually DO have a problem with it")). It's sad.

Frankly I can see any of them being anything. Personally, I'd think Mike or Don before the other two but it could easily be any of them. For one thing, Mike seems the most open to "experiment", what with his "try anything once" personality. And Don has, canonically, until the Nick show, shown almost zero interest in females, so there's plenty of room to explore the alternative. From a real life perspective, that's why I think if it was an editorial decision, either of them would be the one chosen over Leo or Raph. I don't think the powers-that-be would "allow" either the Leader or the Tough Guy to be gay. I think we have a while to go before that's on the table.
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Old 12-20-2014, 11:26 AM   #43
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Maybe. Wouldn't really bet on it but wouldn't completely disregard it either. If we've had them feeling attracted to other species and even to human females, I don't see why homosexuality would be off-limits in some writer's imagination someday.

I'm not interested on such take on the Turtles, though. In fact, I don't even like the idea of the Turtles having romantic or sexual feelings at all.
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Old 12-20-2014, 11:39 AM   #44
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One think to consider is that the Turtles could be Ace, most creatures don't have sex for fun. Same goes for turtles (at least in my experience as a turtle owner).
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Old 12-20-2014, 12:13 PM   #45
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Maybe in the next Turtle wave in 10-20 years.


Personally I don't like romance in Turtles at all, so I rather not see more of it.

I wouldn't be mad if it happened as long as- it's subtle, and it doesn't take over or change the character's personality. Same rules for straight romance.
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Old 12-20-2014, 12:23 PM   #46
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There was a letter to the editor (in Issue 39, 4th letter) in the IDW comic series which asked if they had any plans on having a supporting character gay (they didn't have much hope that one of the Turtles would be). The answer was Bobby Curnow and Tom Waltz discussed having a gay character, but they're biding their time so it would be "authentic and real to the character."

Apparently there was an interview/panel with Peter Laird who someone in the audience asked a similar question. He didn't go either way in answering it.

As for my opinion, no for the Turtles, yes for a new supporting character. No matter how many different versions of the Turtles there are, there are basic characteristics that defines those characters. I feel that if they change their sexual orientation, it would be like changing what role they have on the team or even what gender they are.

Take for example what SquareEnix is doing with Cid in the newest Final Fantasy game. It's the first time Cid is depicted as a female. What makes this different than the Turtles is that Cid isn't known to be a static/concrete character. They have been different races, species, and now genders. But they are all Cid because their defining characteristic is they are all mechanics.

The Turtles has always been turtles, with their specific characteristics, roles in the team, and, in time and time again, depicted having crushes on or paired up with females.

But if they did go down this route and make one of them gay, it has to be Leo. He would be the only one who would have an interesting story to back it up. And that's a huge point I want to make, if they want to make one gay, they better have a good explanation why they are just tacking it on. That's why I absolutely hated (I don't remember the issue or which comic series it came from... was it Mirage or Image?) when they paired him up with Raven Shadowheart. It was completely left field with very little support on why they would even be attracted to each other in the first place.

Why I would say Leo would be the best candidate is because Raph and Donnie would be stereotypical. There's really nothing for them to lose (because I want to believe that the brothers and Splinter would be supportive or wouldn't care if they came out). Also Mikey wouldn't have much of a good story behind it either. The most someone could dramatize his story is probably everyone thinks he's confused or something. What Leo has that the others don't is responsibility. He would probably find it shameful that he has these thoughts and feels that if he came out, no one would respect him as a leader and as an older brother. He fears to be disowned and abandoned. That's pretty bad for a leader to have no followers. His story would be interesting to read as he struggles with himself as this would also resonate with some readers/watchers.

The only problem with this is that this would have to be a story arc to have it respectfully put into his character. A story arc that probably isn't very action packed and slow. It would be kinda boring to some of the audience.

That's why a supporting character would be easier to introduce than an established one. The writers could either drop hints then have a big reveal than explain everything or introduce it outright and take their time explaining over the course of the show/comic. I don't feel you can do that with an established character without feeling forced and tacked on.

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And Don has, canonically, until the Nick show, shown almost zero interest in females, so there's plenty of room to explore the alternative.
Except in the 2003 version, she sure liked April's kiss on the cheek.
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Old 12-20-2014, 12:38 PM   #47
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I see a lot of peddling and back and forth about integral characteristics and what makes the Turtles Turtles.

But, that's not the question is it? Can't a character be gay without re hauling their character? I don't think anyone mean depicting Raph as a non-straight character, suddenly he have to act like Jack in Will & Grace.
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Old 12-20-2014, 12:40 PM   #48
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I wonder if some folks have ever had a satisfying relationship, since they'd prefer their favorite fictional characters not have one at all, either straight or gay.

That's sad to me. As someone who has only discovered what true happiness in life is since knowing my wife the last 15 years - even though at times we could act like we hate each other - it's hard for me to understand why some people would prefer to see anyone, even a fictional character, endure a life of loneliness, physical pain, and struggle. Like you want them to do nothing at all but fight, forever, until they die.

That ain't life, man. I know "it's a story about guys who fight other guys", but to me, especially because these guys have been isolated their whole lives, the idea of companionship and even love is something they would wish for. They see others around them being able to love and have relationships; why shouldn't they?

Why can't they be warriors AND have relationships? It doesn't have to be one or the other. When Lois and Clark got married, the books didn't suddenly all become about the two of them nuzzling noses and being all lovey-dovey constantly. It was just a new wrinkle in the book, one that had never really been done before: Everything else was the same, except that for the first time he was truly happy. THAT was all that changed. The marriage itself wasn't exactly handled well on the writing/editorial end, but that's not the point. The point is, it didn't hurt anything, it made it better.

I get that some "Are we alone forever?" type of existential angst is a huge part of the TMNT myth in general, but it doesn't have to STAY that way. Why can't it be something that evolves as they get older and meet new people? It's been done before, and well. The Donnie/April thing is not being done well. That doesn't mean "NO Relationships" should be a hard rule.

To me, it would be VERY poignant if, in the end, the answer that they start with in every version of TMNT - "Are we completely alone, alienated, forever?" - is answered in the end with, "No." I really like the idea that even "freaks" can find someone to care for and love them. To me, the other way is a bad message. That if you're different, you'll never find anyone to love you, because you're "a freak", so you should just embrace a life of fighting and misery until you die. Come on, that's horrible. That's an awful message.

Maybe some people want TMNT to just be a light and superficial thing, and I get that. But many others embrace TMNT because of how deeply it resonates with real life. And relationships are a part of life. For some people they're the entire thing that makes life worth living, the joy they get in sharing their life with someone else.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gunstar: I agree that Leo being gay would make for a good story but I was just being practical. From an editorial/real-world perspective, we're a LONG way away from either "the leader" or "the tough guy" character of any franchise being "allowed" to be gay. If it happened in 15 years, possibly. If it happened, say, tomorrow, it would have to be Mike or Don, because as you said, "there'd be less to lose" in the big picture. You could "get away with it" with those two, not with Leo or Raph.

Also, I completely disagree that anything at all about the characters AS WE KNOW THEM would change, at all, if one of them were suddenly gay. That's... a troublesome point of view. Exactly what would be different about them? It's not like we've seen them too often go "full hetero" either. As others have stated, relationships haven't been a huge issue. There's a lot of room to work with either way. How would any of the "Basic characteristics that define them" be changed if one of them was gay? Are people COMPLETELY defined by their sexual orientation?

They're not. They definitely are not.
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Last edited by Leo656; 12-20-2014 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 12-20-2014, 12:46 PM   #49
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But at the same time, why put it in if there isn't going to be a difference? The sake to say, "HEY WE HAVE A GAY CHARACTER"? That isn't respectful to an established character nor to anyone who wants one. It should be explained and done tactfully.

I don't want pandering to me, I want good storytelling.

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I wonder if some folks have ever had a satisfying relationship, since they'd prefer their favorite fictional characters not have one at all, either straight or gay.
That's a hateful thing to say. You don't need to be in a relationship to be happy. :\
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Old 12-20-2014, 12:49 PM   #50
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Edited as you were posting, so here:

Also, I completely disagree that anything at all about the characters AS WE KNOW THEM would change, at all, if one of them were suddenly gay. That's... a troublesome point of view. Exactly what would be different about them? It's not like we've seen them too often go "full hetero" either. As others have stated, relationships haven't been a huge issue. There's a lot of room to work with either way. How would any of the "Basic characteristics that define them" be changed if one of them was gay? Are people COMPLETELY defined by their sexual orientation?

They're not. They definitely are not.

It's not "pandering", it's called "reality". If Donnie was everything we know him to be, but just happened to ALSO be gay, then that's all it would be. He'd be the exact same character, PLUS that. He wouldn't suddenly be "The f*g." Except to people who see things in those terms.
-------------------------------------------------------

It is so NOT hateful. No, some people don't need a relationship to be happy, but most people do want one. And I think four guys who spend all their time bitching how alone they are and nobody understands them DEFINITELY would want one.
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Old 12-20-2014, 12:53 PM   #51
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Taking the Nick Turtles, as of now, we only know that Donnie have a crush on April, and Leo had/have one on Karai or, at least it was a playful flirtatious Batman/Catwoman thing.

Both Leo and Donnie could be Bisexual, or Pansexual. We know nothing about Mikey or Raph, maybe Mikey fascination with Bradford was more then just fanboying. If one or more was revealed to be non-straight it wouldn't have changed anything, absolutely nothing would have been changed of what we already know.
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Old 12-20-2014, 01:00 PM   #52
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No

Never! What kinda question is that, guy?! I'm sure your hearts in the right place but do you honestly WANT this to happen? Just no. I'm not chastising you in anyway, but h-e- double hockey sticks no! The closest you'll get is that keep kids off drugs special with Mikey and all those other cartoons.
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Old 12-20-2014, 01:00 PM   #53
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and the message is diluted when they're "allowed" to have a made-up secondary character who only exists to be "the gay character" rather than one of the guys.
Yeah, that's a good point. A new character might make for an easier transition into simply bringing more diversity into animation and "kid's" media, but I could see how that could also end up being no better than when female characters are added to a show simply to be a romantic interest for an existing male character. If relationship stuff happens with a new character, that really needs to wait until he or she is well established in the story otherwise and is part of their own character development.


"Morality" freakouts aside, really I don't know why people should have much issue with it. Is it something I'm personally interested in much? Not really. But if some version decided to explore that direction a bit, so be it, if I don't care for it or don't like how it's done, I don't have to personally accept it into the way things 'really' are to me within my own head/preferences. I admit, I might be just a little touchier about it were it my fave, but it's not like there aren't already other things from other versions I disregard (looking at you 2007, aspects of 2014, etc), however the world nor franchise were made to cater exclusively to me, all people deserve a place in it.


As for society being opposed to such things in kid's shows, etc on theologically driven 'moral' grounds... Ya know... with regard to those that have the attitude that after legalizing gay marriage the world is going to collapse and people will next be allowed to marry animals... It's kind of funny that in some sense TMNT has kind of already loosely leapt into that territory and most people put up with it. I mean the guys have already been "human curious" off and on for a long time, I'm afraid it's far too late to return them to any standards of so-called purity. (Although to be fair to them it's not really fair to lump them into the same morality issue category as someone who decided to get friendly with, say, a goat. Far too much humanity in them.)



Ok you guys took off and posted a bunch of stuff while I was still trying to figure how how to say what I was thinking, but posting it anyhow even if late.

Personally I like that TMNT sometimes touches on the relationship stuff a little (even if Nick is getting tiresome), even if it only just hints at that part of them as characters but never goes too far into it. Just makes them all the more 'real' if their lives are not solely about fighting bad guys and they have these private struggles that the humanity in them brings up and the things they may wish for in life but might never be accessible them.
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Old 12-20-2014, 01:00 PM   #54
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And I think four guys who spend all their time bitching how alone they are and nobody understands them DEFINITELY would want one.
Saying all the time is reaching. And it really depends on which version/iteration you are talking about. For example, Raph, as a whole, isn't much for relationships in any medium.

I can see this is emotional to you and others, just as emotional when people say I can never be happy unless I'm married and have children. (Ugh.) I put in my two cents and I'll take my leave now.
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Old 12-20-2014, 01:06 PM   #55
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Look, I get the whole "I don't need another person to define me" thing. I get that. That's fine for some but not for others. Some people's feeling also evolve. You don't know me, so I'll allow for some things to pass. But to clarify, I *thought*, for a long time, that I didn't want a relationship. I *thought* I'd never want to be with anyone. I *thought* I was happy. I truly believed all those things. Even more recently, going through some issues with my wife, I *thought* maybe we made a mistake. Things happen and people change. And I know now, more than ever, that we are made for each other and I would never have ever been happy had we not been together. Honest? I'd probably be dead.

I'm not picking on people who want to be alone or prefer it or whatever. I see the point. I understand the point. I also know, for a fact, that *some* of those people just haven't met the person who can change their mind. SOME.

And it's "emotional" for me because I don't like intolerance or closed-minded people. Not saying you, just saying some people in here are really, really bigoted.
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Old 12-20-2014, 01:08 PM   #56
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The Turtles themselves having love interests has always been annoying, do you really want to see a Don/April thing with Don and a male mutant? No.
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Old 12-20-2014, 01:09 PM   #57
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Cubed, based on your personality you're almost certainly never going to spend time with a woman you didn't pay or keep tied to a chair. Your opinion weighs as much as a handful of feathers.
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Old 12-20-2014, 01:56 PM   #58
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I wonder if some folks have ever had a satisfying relationship, since they'd prefer their favorite fictional characters not have one at all, either straight or gay.
That doesn't describe me at all. It's not like I'd stop watching TMNT if they suddenly got significant others. Hell, they've had in the past(Archie Comics). TMNT is just one of those franchises where I never cared much about romance or sexuality, especially if it involves mutated animals. Now, I could give a pass to the Turtles getting romantically involved with an animal of other species, but with a human? No.

Gay or straight, it's not relevant.
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Old 12-20-2014, 01:58 PM   #59
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Any GOOD reasons why? Just curious.
Because most of the time whenever they 'portray' a gay character, it's done through an incredibly paternalistic lens and often turned into some sort of woobie.

I have SSA (I am bi.) I don't like how gay people are portrayed. They are often used as a political and controversial football that often shows only one or two types of gay people, often in very stereotypical ways. When they are shown, it's the classic stereotype or the obnoxious gay activist who always hates/harmed by some sort of religion, is sexually active, and always is some sort of victim whose greatest happiness in life is to find a fellow gay lover or to get married.

Rarely are they shown as anything but this, they NEVER show them as people, but as something the straight folk can root over and/or feel sorry for.

You ever notice how people try to 'legitimize' our existence by citing animals or that it's natural? Animals also kill and eat their babies, they have forced copulation and they aren't shy about stealing food from a weaker member. Animals aren't the go to place to look when you are trying to tell someone a particular behavior or whatever is 'right.' That always bugs me, and you rarely see it done for anything else.

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The funny thing is that there is constant proof of animals doing stuff with the same gender and same species that we consider gay IRL but they're just animals and so that's okay.
Gay fan chars? Here come the angry mobs with the pitchforks.
In real life, no legit scientist ascribes an 'orientation' to an animal. You can easily get an animal to perform 'homosexual behaviors' by injecting testosterone into females (they will act as male and mount another female) or amounts of estrogen into a male (other males will attempt to mount them, and the mounted male will 'stand' for the mounting.) Animal sexuality is highly fluid, and not as cut and dry as humans. Plus some of the other homosexual behavior' is dominance mounting or done by females to other females when in heat, but they will still often permit a male to mate with them.

Ascribing a sexuality to animals is a purely human thing, because they want to see it, not because it actually exists.

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I'm not a total big fan of the Turtles being 'forever alone' and they'll eventually grow curious
about their feelings for either gender. Its part of real life. Sometimes it also spills over onto comics, fanart, and naughty fanfiction. Because its on the sad side that the Turtles constantly get that "unlucky at love" card played out to them all of the time.
There is nothing wrong with not having a boyfriend or girlfriend. I wouldn't care if one of the Turtles felt something for another male, but not set there just to be controversial and just to show two males kissing to get a rise out of certain people. It's just irritating because they'd done that in other media so many times, and usually to assuage some sort of 'straight guilt' that straights seem to feel for LGBT folks.
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Old 12-20-2014, 02:50 PM   #60
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Raph isn't gay?
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