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Old 12-20-2014, 02:53 PM   #61
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Raph isn't gay?
What gave you the impression he was?
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Old 12-20-2014, 02:56 PM   #62
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Prowler/Metalwof: All fair points. Much better than the "What is wrong with you/How could you even ask that" drivel.

Prowler: I see your point, but in this respect it all falls to how what a person sees as being "relevant" to the material. Like Lex Luthor said, "Some people can read 'War and Peace' and come away thinking it's a simple adventure story, while others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper, and unlock the secrets of the universe." Likewise, some people choose to only see TMNT as an action/adventure romp where a group of brothers and their rat sensei have a series of wacky hijinks. Fair enough. Others, however, see it as a story full of themes of alienation, loneliness, prejudice, what it means to be "different", what it means to be "human", if sentient creatures can overcome their outward differences and still get along, and, longing to belong, to be accepted. Those are universal themes and they are all very, very much a part of TMNT, since the very beginning. Heck, some people defend those hideous outfits the Turtles wear in the new movie as an example of them "wanting to belong, to be accepted".

From the perspective I'm putting forward, I'd argue that love and relationships are, in fact, very much relevant. It's all in how a person chooses to read the material. Remember, Superman never stopped punching Brainiac just because he married Lois. The story didn't suddenly become about their relationship, the relationship simply expanded the story a little bit, while everything else stayed the same. Superman is also a story about all of the same themes TMNT is about, and in the same respect, his relationship with Lois is just as relevant.

You can choose to not have those themes be your favorite or main points of the story, and that's perfectly fine, but they're definitely there. If any of the Turtles had a relationship, it would simply be extrapolating on themes that already exist, and always have, in the material. It wouldn't be adding or changing anything. Merely expanding.

Metalwolf: Very good point, no argument from me as far as, if it would be done poorly, then it would be terrible, and that yes, there's a lot of cases where it hasn't been done well at all. You're very, very much right about how gay characters in fiction are often written. Maybe I just want to give them the benefit of the doubt that they would NOT be so careless with one of the Turtles. I could very well be wrong, but who knows until we see it, eh?
---------------------------------------------

I just think it really seems like some people feel the entire book/show would suddenly be about the guys running around playing grab-ass. That's so not what would happen, guys. At least not unless it was written by a jackass. Nothing would really change, you'd just get the same TMNT you've always gotten, PLUS something else. And people tell me I'M resistant to change or new ideas? I gotta chuckle at that one.

And I can DEFINITELY see Raph as a closet self-loather. The signs are there.
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Old 12-20-2014, 03:06 PM   #63
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Well, I have nothing against homosexuality, so it'd make no sense for me to make such a statement.

I wouldn't mind if romance is in TMNT as long as it's not the main focus. And as you said and well, we all have our own view of the Turtles. I'll always view the TMNT as an action/adventure sci-fi franchise with bits of comedy. And I also like the "loneliness" aspect of them and the "Life is bittersweet at most" feel it carries.

Your last paragraph is an example of how I'd definitely not want to see sexuality and romance being handled in TMNT.
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Old 12-20-2014, 03:21 PM   #64
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I don't think anybody would want to see it done at all if it was done like that. I mean, it's not like, "Eh, they should just do it because why not," and then do it in a poor or pandering fashion. If it was to be done at all it should be done in a way that was a natural extension of the story, same as if one of them was to adopt a hetero relationship. Story first, always.

Part of what intrigues me about having stories in TMNT that are about relationships is, it really hasn't been done very much and rarely well. I'd argue Ninjara was done well, and Don/April VERY badly. But the other stuff... it's been done, y'know? You can come up with new bad guys to fight, new planets or dimensions or whatever to explore, but you're still telling the same stories, over and over again, essentially. It's like, you have an area with very little exploration and a lot of room to tell stories and do brand new things. Why not creep into that territory? You don't have to flip the entire premise upside-down, but it'd be a welcome change of pace. Kna'mean?
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Old 12-20-2014, 04:17 PM   #65
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Prowler/Metalwof: All fair points. Much better than the "What is wrong with you/How could you even ask that" drivel.


Metalwolf: Very good point, no argument from me as far as, if it would be done poorly, then it would be terrible, and that yes, there's a lot of cases where it hasn't been done well at all. You're very, very much right about how gay characters in fiction are often written. Maybe I just want to give them the benefit of the doubt that they would NOT be so careless with one of the Turtles. I could very well be wrong, but who knows until we see it, eh?
But there is another thing also: Gay characters are defined more by their sexual relationships in ways that straights are not. Any of the Turtles could be gay, even Splinter too in some incarnations and nobody would know. But in fiction gays must always have relationships, but with straights, it's entirely optional. That is another thing that I don't like with how gays are done in fiction.

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Old 12-20-2014, 04:23 PM   #66
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Eh, that's society putting labels on people, though. I see what you're saying, and it's true; whenever someone "comes out", it seems like the first question everyone asks is, "So who are they f***ing?", as if there's no way they can JUST have an attraction without constantly acting on it. I get it. People have to change the way they think. And they are. Slowly, but they are.
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Old 12-20-2014, 04:28 PM   #67
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Well, movies and TV shows as well as society as a whole have the idea that gay people aren't in for it for the romance, it's depicted to be all about that sinful sex, rather then as an actual relationship.
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Old 12-20-2014, 04:37 PM   #68
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XAV: I wanna see some proof behind those numbers. I... kinda don't buy it. Sounds ridiculously low. Now, if we're gonna say that that's the percentage of people in America who ADMIT to being gay... well, that I can almost believe. Lots of people are scared to admit it. Wonder why.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr077.pdf
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Old 12-20-2014, 04:49 PM   #69
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So it's actually 3.4% when accounting for bisexuals, those who "don't know", and/or refused to answer. Still practically twice the number you first cited, though. As I suspected, those are the ones who admit it.

Mark my words, when you factor in those who aren't going to admit their sexuality to a census taker, as well as those who are in denial about themselves, it's really probably anywhere from 5 to 10%. Dramatically higher than 1.6%.

Thanks for providing a source, though. Statistics, however, only ever tell part of the story, not the whole story. People lie, and some folks just haven't figured themselves out yet. There have always been Way more "not straight" people than the numbers have ever shown.
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Old 12-20-2014, 04:54 PM   #70
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Eh, that's society putting labels on people, though. I see what you're saying, and it's true; whenever someone "comes out", it seems like the first question everyone asks is, "So who are they f***ing?", as if there's no way they can JUST have an attraction without constantly acting on it. I get it. People have to change the way they think. And they are. Slowly, but they are.
Exactly. Not everybody who has SSA is automatically shagging/looking to shag someone. For some, there is an intention to remain single, for others it might even be against their personal beliefs. It's another complexity often found in real people but is curiously absent in so called 'gay characters,' which often seem custom built to please a certain segment and rarely reflect reality.

But that complexity might be a ways away in coming though.
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Old 12-20-2014, 05:06 PM   #71
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Well, that brings us back around, doesn't it? We can't make Progress if nobody's going to Try.

I think TMNT has, and has always had, some really great, really powerful messages about diversity and tolerance. I love that! That's why I think it's ideal for one or more of the Turtles to be gay, or bi, or whatever else. It fits. Also, family! TMNT has always been about family. Well, in real life, some TMNT fans are gay and have struggled to be open with their friends and family. Imagine what an amazing message it would be for them, how they might see themselves represented in the material, if they saw one of the Turtles sharing that struggle. I mean, I could totally see Leonardo struggling with it... "What would Master Splinter think!" Imagine if he finally opened up about it, only for Splinter to state the obvious, that it changes nothing and they're still the same Family they've always been. Maybe, I don't know, maybe Raphael would have a hard time hearing it at first, give him a hard time about it, but then, eventually, have to rethink his position, change his thinking, and become more tolerant and accepting in the end because hey, they're Family, and there's Nothing Wrong With It anyway.

That's real. That's real life. Just ideas, but still, you get the point. I think it would be very progressive and powerful, and again, only serve to reinforce the themes that have always been there. Tolerance. Diversity. Family. That's interesting, to me. There are a lot of Good Stories, meaningful ones, that you can do once you crack that door open a little.

Good conversation going on at this point, by the way, everyone.
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Old 12-20-2014, 05:18 PM   #72
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Turtles could be Gay or Straight, I don't think it impacts much of their cannon or character, other than a few peripheral stories of romance, but I've always felt those were tacked on, forced, and awkward.

From my point of view, it isn't really defined enough that I would care if one or ALL were gay/straight/bi/etc. It's not like Superman, in which Superman has a long standing love interest in Lois, central to his story; or Batman, who has a long standing suspected love interest in Robin, and uses Talia/Selina/ etc as a beard.

If anything, Maybe the turtles would be a-sexual, seeing as they really have no one to mate with (of their own species at least), which I would think would be the over aching frustration, beyond sexual preference.

Any way, I wouldn't care, and really, it's a non issue.
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Old 12-20-2014, 05:54 PM   #73
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Batman, who has a long standing suspected love interest in Robin, and uses Talia/Selina/ etc as a beard.
Jackass.
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Old 12-20-2014, 05:56 PM   #74
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If anything, Maybe the turtles would be a-sexual, seeing as they really have no one to mate with (of their own species at least), which I would think would be the over aching frustration, beyond sexual preference.
This is really it, right? It's why the ice-cold "Sons of the Silent Age" is still a fan-favorite and there's a collective resistance to the Turtles showing romantic interest in non-Turtles females (which inevitably pops up in every version regardless)? It's all kind of half-defined at best.

That said, since mating doesn't preclude romantic interest, if a take is going to put it out there that the Turtles can have romantic interest in other ... species? ... however that works, then, sure, I wouldn't have any problem with one of them being homosexual.

On the other hand, it's a group of four, so it wouldn't feel unrealistically exclusionary were none of them to be. The property in general could use, though, and I think will eventually see, some better representation of other sexual orientations than it currently has. That seems like an inevitability.
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Old 12-20-2014, 05:59 PM   #75
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We could have Donnie and April fight over Casey
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Old 12-20-2014, 05:59 PM   #76
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That seems like an inevitability.
Agreed.

Whether this fanbase is mature enough to handle it, or if too many will be all "NOT MAH TUHTLES!", well, that remains to be seen.
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Old 12-20-2014, 05:59 PM   #77
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You'll more likely wind up seeing one of the human characters be gay, like Karai being a lesbian, rather than the Turtles.
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Old 12-20-2014, 06:00 PM   #78
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We could have Donnie and April fight over Casey
That'd be refreshing for once.

Of course, it'd pretty easily resolved based on which way Casey swings. (Unless he's feeling really bi-Casey-ous?)

Also, Donatello is a mutant turtle.
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Old 12-20-2014, 06:01 PM   #79
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You'll more likely wind up seeing one of the human characters be gay, like Karai being a lesbian, rather than the Turtles.
At first, probably.

Give it, say, 25 years, though, and one of those boys will be out, loud, and proud. I can't wait, just for the scripted dialog.

"I always knew you were a fairy, 'Fearless Leader!'"
"Shut UP, Raphael! You're so deep in the closet you're finding Christmas presents!"

EDIT: Bi-Casey-ous. HAH!
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Old 12-20-2014, 06:02 PM   #80
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"I always knew you were a fairy, 'Fearless Leader!'"
"Shut UP, Raphael! You're so deep in the closet you're finding Christmas presents!"
Are you suggesting Raph and Leo might be Coming Out of Their Shells?
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