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Old 02-21-2018, 11:45 AM   #21
Candy Kappa
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Legacy numbering and new number 1s, trying to have you cake and eat it I see, Marvel editorial.
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Old 02-21-2018, 01:21 PM   #22
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Dear Comic Companies:

It's okay to have more than one universe for your books..
Alternate Universe titles are a hard sell...as Renew Your Vows and Spider-Gwen are currently experiencing with ever decreasing sales. Marvel's best stab at one (Ultimate Universe) steadily went downhill with only Miles Morales holding it up.
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Old 02-21-2018, 01:26 PM   #23
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Marvel's best stab at one (Ultimate Universe) steadily went downhill with only Miles Morales holding it up.
no wonder when the Ultimates was a bunch of unlikable assholes and the X-Men was a bunch of unlikable assholes and the FF was a bunch of unlikable assholes. Only Spider-Man was any decent, and that one Hulk comic where he wanted pancakes and that one Gambit story.
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Old 02-21-2018, 01:49 PM   #24
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no wonder when the Ultimates was a bunch of unlikable assholes and the X-Men was a bunch of unlikable assholes and the FF was a bunch of unlikable assholes. Only Spider-Man was any decent, and that one Hulk comic where he wanted pancakes and that one Gambit story.
Oh god yeah. The Ultimate Universe, Ultimate Spider-Man aside, was schlock where everyone was a grim, unlikable asshole that it's impossible to read. It's amazing to me that The Ultimates was a popular thing at one point. I mean, yeah, big shock since Mark Millar launched and established most of those books, but still. None of those characters were worth following or investing in. The Ultimate Captain America might have been the worst version of the character to actually stick around for a while.

I wasn't sad when it ended. The line was garbage from near the start, buoyed mainly by the fact that Ultimate Spider-Man was good near the whole way through.
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Old 02-21-2018, 02:05 PM   #25
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I always thought the Ultimate Line was created in an effort to court the Dark and Gritty DC Cinematic Universe folks over across the Marvel line.

I found them entertaining for what they were.
It was like...allowing the Marvel Universe to be populated by Indy Publisher Heroes from the 90s.
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So your wants and needs as a fan should outweigh everyone else's?
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There's no sense catering just to one demographic which is idiotic.
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just ignore what you don't like rather than obsessing over it and move on with your life.
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Old 02-21-2018, 02:10 PM   #26
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I always thought the Ultimate Line was created in an effort to court the Dark and Gritty DC Cinematic Universe folks over across the Marvel line.
Didn't the Ultimates line come out about a decade before that existed, though?
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Old 02-21-2018, 02:23 PM   #27
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Didn't the Ultimates line come out about a decade before that existed, though?
I was more referring to the More Dark and Serious crowd, and...misspeaking wildly in the process.
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So your wants and needs as a fan should outweigh everyone else's?
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There's no sense catering just to one demographic which is idiotic.
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just ignore what you don't like rather than obsessing over it and move on with your life.
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Old 02-21-2018, 03:42 PM   #28
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It was what it was because 9/11 literally happened the previous year, so it's basically a sort of reaction to that, plus a reflection of the Bush era. Which explains jingoistic ass Ultimate Cap, among other things. It was trash, but the kind people wanted to read at the time, after that real life event.

All the funnier, given it was written by a Scot.
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Old 02-22-2018, 12:24 PM   #29
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I know the marriage (at least to MJ) ain't your cup of tea, but the majority love it and it's time they brought it back. Part of Spider-Man's ongoing problems is it's absence. The only reason it's gone is because of the upper brass' maddeningly stubborn insistence Peter remain "youthful". It's not even a line-wide commitment considering we've never went a year without the marriage in publication elsewhere (Renew Your Vows, Newspaper Strip), so what IS the point of keeping it out of the mainstream stuff? All of Peter's alternative love interests have proven to be duds and fail to measure up to MJ.

Just damn well fix what was never broken.
I even question why was MJ built up (mentioned in ASK#15 and teased repeatedly from ASM#25 to #ASM#42) only to go on one date interrupted by The Rhino? Gwen Stacy herself only seemed to be an extended block to the inevitable. Perhaps this is a separate thread.
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Old 02-22-2018, 02:11 PM   #30
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Stan Lee's talked about it before and she was just one of several women orbiting Peters life, because he thought it interesting to have different women Peter might think he was in love with. That's it. I think he's even said he intended Gwen to be the one, though I could be mis-remembering the mans words on that one. It was more Gerry Conway who liked MJ and looked to make her more of a thing, so he killed Gwen off for that purpose and tweaked MJ. MJ became more of a fixture from there, along with the other women that came and went from Peter Parkers life.
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Old 02-22-2018, 02:21 PM   #31
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Gwen was killed off cause fans at the time hated her. I think MJ and Peter works best together, and now that we have Miles, Peter should be able to be an adult and happily married because wow bachelor Peter sucks.
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Old 02-22-2018, 02:28 PM   #32
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Gwen was killed off cause fans at the time hated her.
Gerry Conway has admitted outright in forewords and the like that he killed off Gwen Stacy entirely because he liked MJ better.

I don't know what fans at the time thought - maybe they did hate her, I wasn't alive then and have never looked into it - but I'm going with what the people involved said as far as the why.
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Old 02-22-2018, 02:37 PM   #33
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Gerry Conway has admitted outright in forewords and the like that he killed off Gwen Stacy entirely because he liked MJ better.

I don't know what fans at the time thought - maybe they did hate her, I wasn't alive then and have never looked into it - but I'm going with what the people involved said as far as the why.
People were just as livid when Gwen died. Slott has often said that if the internet were around in the 70s, the backlash would have been astronomical, much like how the marriage controversy stands with fans today.

Gwen's gained mythical status as the "idealized" love in Peter's life, even despite the attempts at deconstructing that with the Sins Past storyline.
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Old 02-22-2018, 02:45 PM   #34
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People were just as livid when Gwen died. Slott has often said that if the internet were around in the 70s, the backlash would have been astronomical, much like how the marriage controversy stands with fans today.
Really? I didn't know that. It's a bit harder to know what fans at times like that might have thought, aside from what creators might have said. I remember it was said for a while that Jason Todd was killed because fans abhorred him, but it's since come out that the voting was actually super close, for example.

Stan Lee was never happy about it, I know that much, but I never knew if fans shared his sentiment or not.

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Gwen's gained mythical status as the "idealized" love in Peter's life, even despite the attempts at deconstructing that with the Sins Past storyline.
Oh, yeah, absolutely there was some idealization going on there. She's been portrayed as near a saint since. Which, I mean, is sort of fair in how Peter remembers her. We all kind of sand the rough edges away when someone we love dies, so it tracks for him. Out-of-universe it makes sense that people who liked the character would act the same way too.

Was Sins Past the one with Norman? That was just pretty yuck. Though the idea of deconstructing it a bit is not a terrible one.
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Old 02-22-2018, 02:52 PM   #35
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Marvel (and DC) have no choice. If you want to still have Spider-Man and Batman existing in 2018, while somehow acknowledging their past adventures from the 60s WHILE SOMEHOW KEEPING THEM THE SAME AGE, they have no choice but to do resets, relaunches, rebirths and crises.
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Old 02-22-2018, 02:54 PM   #36
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Marvel (and DC) have no choice. If you want to still have Spider-Man and Batman existing in 2018, while somehow acknowledging their past adventures from the 60s WHILE SOMEHOW KEEPING THEM THE SAME AGE, they have no choice but to do resets, relaunches, rebirths and crises.
Not every year or so, they don't.
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Old 02-22-2018, 02:55 PM   #37
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Was Sins Past the one with Norman? That was just pretty yuck. Though the idea of deconstructing it a bit is not a terrible one.
Yeah, and it only came out the way it did because the original suggestion was to make Peter the father. JMS had some strange ideas.
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Old 02-22-2018, 02:57 PM   #38
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Yeah, and it only came out the way it did because the original suggestion was to make Peter the father. JMS had some strange ideas.
Yeah, he did. At least half of them pretty bad.

Some were pretty good, though. I don't remember if I mentioned it before, but I did always like the idea of Peter ending up a school teacher. That always seemed like a career that fit the character. Though it is a bit hard to make work.
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Old 02-22-2018, 03:04 PM   #39
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I like most of JMS's ideas for Spider-Man. Even the darker, yucky ones.

I mean, we all go through ugly things in life. It pains me to say, but I think Peter needs true tragedy in his life. The stomach-churning kind you can't just wave away. It's how he deals with that tragedy that inspires us.

Sometimes I think writers/creators hold back too much when it comes to Peter Parker. That's what I loved about James Cameron's unused Spider-Man movie script - It makes Peter into a total outcast. The script opens up with him popping his pimples in front of a mirror, and later has him spying on Mary Jane while she changes. It's not that I think it's admirable behavior, but you need the contrast.

Peter's life is sad, demented, offputting, and lonely. That's what makes it so special when free's himself by hopping into the "red & blue's", soaring above the city and finally letting his mouth run wild.

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Old 02-22-2018, 04:35 PM   #40
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Solicits are out and it seems like everyone jumped the gun and it's not a full relaunch again. Just some books are. Captain America is going past issue #700 with the numbering intact, Hulk is keeping its numbering, a lot are, actually, while Spider-Man and Iron Man just hit their milestone issues. The only books that seem to be relaunching right now are Avengers, Black Panther and Venom. So they are keeping with the Legacy stuff, except starting fresh with the books that either already released a movie this year or have one in the pipeline.

Still, that we all immediately assumed "relaunch" says a lot about how much they've abused that.

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I like most of JMS's ideas for Spider-Man. Even the darker, yucky ones.
It's not the darkness that bothers me so much as the fact that a lot of the ideas were really just silly or head shakers. Sins Past was bad, but that's one storyline. The entire run basically revolved around/led up to the Spider Totem nonsense, which is probably the bigger eye roller. At least they've seemed mostly content to pretend Sins Past didn't happen, but I don't think we're ever completely escaping the totem.
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