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Old 06-17-2019, 10:58 AM   #21
AquaParade
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Originally Posted by Vegita-San View Post
The sad part is this show could have been truly great. but it suffered from rather weak villain stories..weak villains. and lack of direction. the long breaks didn't help it either, but all the elements where there for success.
In this, I feel like we are looking at two different sides of the same coin.

I'm not sure all the elements for success were really there, considering they had to first and foremost factor in which elements had to be shoehorned in for toy sales.

I see it as the show being awesome despite the conditions and rules surrounding its development, but I do agree that the show could have been better, with a different set of circumstances.
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Old 07-24-2019, 05:22 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Vegita-San View Post
just glad he's done with tmnt. didn't feel he was a good fit for it.....designs might have been ok, but story consistency was rather lacking.

i'd just rather let 2012, and with any luck the bigger mess that is rise, rest in pieces...and hope something comes along that can last ten years or more, so we stop with the constant reboots
Man... I absolutely LOVED the 2012 show! To me it is hands down the best TMNT show...period! It not only is my favorite TMNT show, but it is one of my favorite shows from any genre of tv that I watch. It was well written with very developed characters that I felt strongly about. I can't tell you how many times I laughed out loud and even cried out loud. For a cartoon to have such an emotional impact on me, they must've been doing something right. I was truly sad when that show ended.

I never watched the 2003 show when it aired (only saw a couple of random episodes) but recently my son and I have been watching them all in order (currently we are in season 5). I really like the show a lot (as does my son) but it doesn't come close (in my opinion) to the 2012 show in terms of quality storytelling. Don't get me wrong, I really LIKE the show but the 2012 show was just THE perfect TMNT show in my opinion. A tough act to follow, for sure!

Don't get me started on "RISE"!!
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Old 07-24-2019, 06:36 AM   #23
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My personal opinion is somewhere in between AquaParade and rickwj324. Itís not my favorite era of TMNT (thatís reserved for 2003), but itís still up there by a landslide. I myself found myself a bit emotional when I rewatched ďIt Came from the DepthsĒ the other day, which I mean in a good way.

Though, if thereís one thing I agree with Vegita-San over, itís that we have too many reboots at this point.
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Old 07-24-2019, 07:55 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by 80gmrp View Post
My personal opinion is somewhere in between AquaParade and rickwj324. It’s not my favorite era of TMNT (that’s reserved for 2003), but it’s still up there by a landslide. I myself found myself a bit emotional when I rewatched “It Came from the Depths” the other day, which I mean in a good way.

Though, if there’s one thing I agree with Vegita-San over, it’s that we have too many reboots at this point.
Batman And Spider-Man and other series have hundreds of reboots, I don’t know why people can accept the 1000th version of Batman but can’t accept a small handful of TMNT reboots.
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Old 07-24-2019, 08:36 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by 80gmrp View Post
My personal opinion is somewhere in between AquaParade and rickwj324. Itís not my favorite era of TMNT (thatís reserved for 2003), but itís still up there by a landslide. I myself found myself a bit emotional when I rewatched ďIt Came from the DepthsĒ the other day, which I mean in a good way.

Though, if thereís one thing I agree with Vegita-San over, itís that we have too many reboots at this point.
I agree with ya.. both shows are really good. The 2k3 show is quite good and if I had watched it when it aired (prior to seeing the 2k12 show) I probably would place it higher than I do, but for me (and my son) the 2k12 show is just so awesome!

As for reboots, I would've preferred the 2k12 show to continue (even if it reverted to a cheaper 2D version to save on animation but still continue the stories of the 2k12 show and using the same actors). I've been very vocal about my hatred towards "Rise". I know it has it's fanbase (which I respect) but man do I have a tough time sitting through that show. My 6 year old watches it, but even he says its nowhere near as good as the 2k12 or 2k3 shows. I admit that I do collect the figures from RISE though, just because I love collecting TMNT figures and RISE has a nice selection of villain figures so far.

I do hope that the next reboot offers something totally different then what we got from RISE. I'd honestly love to see something resembling the IDW series (understanding it would be toned down for the kiddies a bit, but not as "kiddy" as RISE. 2K12 had a great balance of adult stories that were also kid friendly).

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Old 07-24-2019, 09:30 AM   #26
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Batman And Spider-Man and other series have hundreds of reboots, I donít know why people can accept the 1000th version of Batman but canít accept a small handful of TMNT reboots.
Seeing that the TMNT come from an indie comic that has a set story to tell, I think people feel the story has been told. How many more times are we gonna see Escape to Northampton and City at War. Straying too much from that path and you end up with Fast Forward or Rise.


Spider-Man and Batman have no true story other than their origins and the origins of the villains. They both have such a huge rogues gallery that you can mix and match villains and stories for years and reboots. Plus their comics are neverending, so future cartoons can add even more things like Superior Spider-Man, Spider Gwen, The Signal, Joker with his face cut off and whatever else.

The Turtles story pretty much ends when they end the Shredder and the resulting fallout.
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Old 07-24-2019, 05:38 PM   #27
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Batman And Spider-Man and other series have hundreds of reboots, I donít know why people can accept the 1000th version of Batman but canít accept a small handful of TMNT reboots.
Not quite. Very few hard "reboots" with those characters (as in throwing out literally everything about the past and starting over), but quite a few soft retcons that kind of "massage" bits of new continuity into the old, trying not to change too much at once so as not to give long-time readers a migraine.

For example, in 1986 or so, Frank Miller's "Year One" became the new "official" Batman origin, but it tried very hard not to change too much of the existing story, and stories taking place pre-1986 still happened within the continuity, they just happened a *little* bit differently than as told previously. Or like "The Killing Joke"; it tells the exact same story as the previous "official" Joker origin story that had been told and re-told since the 1950s, it just changed a few of the details to make it a bit more contemporary.

MOST mainstream comic book characters actually only ever get a handful of "hard reboots" that toss out everything and start from zero. Superman has probably had the most of these, but more often, it's preferable to "soft retcon" a few details here and there rather than wipe the slate clean.

Every new TMNT version is a brand new and unique version, with NO resemblance to any previous version, and yes, we absolutely have WAY too many conflicting versions at this point, especially since the property really isn't that old compared to others. If a person asks, "What is Splinter's origin?", it shouldn't be a 30-minute explanation covering 8 different and conflicting stories. "Who Is April O'Neil?" You should have ONE primary answer, and maybe she's a little older or younger, or her hair is different, or whatever, depending on the version. She shouldn't be a completely different human being with a completely different origin and life story in each new version, and we shouldn't be doing a hard re-set every 5 years or so. That's sloppy, lazy bullsh*t.

Just to clarify.
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Old 08-05-2019, 06:20 AM   #28
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Or like "The Killing Joke"; it tells the exact same story as the previous "official" Joker origin story that had been told and re-told since the 1950s, it just changed a few of the details to make it a bit more contemporary.
Simpler times. These days Joker doesn't even have a definitive origin, just vague ones, because somewhere along the way fanboys-turned-writers got scared about "grounding" him and that someone of his calibre of menace couldn't possibly have a normal everyman backdrop.
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Old 08-05-2019, 08:32 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Leo656 View Post
Not quite. Very few hard "reboots" with those characters (as in throwing out literally everything about the past and starting over), but quite a few soft retcons that kind of "massage" bits of new continuity into the old, trying not to change too much at once so as not to give long-time readers a migraine.

For example, in 1986 or so, Frank Miller's "Year One" became the new "official" Batman origin, but it tried very hard not to change too much of the existing story, and stories taking place pre-1986 still happened within the continuity, they just happened a *little* bit differently than as told previously. Or like "The Killing Joke"; it tells the exact same story as the previous "official" Joker origin story that had been told and re-told since the 1950s, it just changed a few of the details to make it a bit more contemporary.

MOST mainstream comic book characters actually only ever get a handful of "hard reboots" that toss out everything and start from zero. Superman has probably had the most of these, but more often, it's preferable to "soft retcon" a few details here and there rather than wipe the slate clean.

Every new TMNT version is a brand new and unique version, with NO resemblance to any previous version, and yes, we absolutely have WAY too many conflicting versions at this point, especially since the property really isn't that old compared to others. If a person asks, "What is Splinter's origin?", it shouldn't be a 30-minute explanation covering 8 different and conflicting stories. "Who Is April O'Neil?" You should have ONE primary answer, and maybe she's a little older or younger, or her hair is different, or whatever, depending on the version. She shouldn't be a completely different human being with a completely different origin and life story in each new version, and we shouldn't be doing a hard re-set every 5 years or so. That's sloppy, lazy bullsh*t.

Just to clarify.
Still, the 2012 series has the most in common with the series that most people know about.

So when people ask about the 2012 origin of Splinter you can answer "He is Hamato Yoshi who fled from Japan and settles in new York city after his altercation with Shredder. He got splashed with Mutagen which turned him into a mutated rat." Which makes people go "Ah yes, the same way it was in the old cartoon."

If they ask you about what the hierarchy of the Turtles in the 2012 series is you can answer with:
"Leonardo is the leader who almost buckles under the strain of the responsibilities which come with that and how to win the others' respect so they follow his orders without questioning them."
"Raphael is the bruiser with a short fuse who kicks first and asks questions later but has a heart of gold."
"Donatello is the nerdy, neurotic, technical genius, who isn't really into fighting but a bad ass in doing so either way."
"Michelangelo is the goofball who's always ready to lighten up the mood and is much more talented than he lets on."
And People will got "Yeah, just like they were in the old cartoon."

And if they start asking questions about fan favorites, like Mona Lisa, Bebop and Rocksteady, Shredder and Krang, or about characters like Bishop, the Utrom Council, the Earth Protection force, you can tell them "Yes indeed, they all appear in the series."
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Old 08-05-2019, 06:00 PM   #30
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Simpler times. These days Joker doesn't even have a definitive origin, just vague ones, because somewhere along the way fanboys-turned-writers got scared about "grounding" him and that someone of his calibre of menace couldn't possibly have a normal everyman backdrop.
I'd wager that there's a big chunk of it that has A LOT to do with not wanting to give Alan Moore one drop more credit or financial compensation than they deem absolutely necessary. Since Killing Joke is the only Joker origin story anyone actually likes, it's the closest thing to being "definitive", but even though Moore mostly borrowed and expanded on the older origin, he added enough new bits of his own that he'd probably have to get something kicked back to him if it were ever made the "official" story. That's my theory, at least.

I mean, every other attempt they've ever made, like the one in "Batman: Confidential", was f*cking dreck. They ultimately know that they'll never do a "better" Joker origin, but they don't wanna acknowledge Moore's contributions any more than they have to. So they throw some more garbage at the wall every now and again and hope that anyone likes it so they can make that the new "official" one.

That's my take, anyway. "Screw with Alan Moore" is part of the daily checklist over there at DC.
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Old 08-12-2019, 10:47 AM   #31
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I'd wager that there's a big chunk of it that has A LOT to do with not wanting to give Alan Moore one drop more credit or financial compensation than they deem absolutely necessary. Since Killing Joke is the only Joker origin story anyone actually likes, it's the closest thing to being "definitive", but even though Moore mostly borrowed and expanded on the older origin, he added enough new bits of his own that he'd probably have to get something kicked back to him if it were ever made the "official" story. That's my theory, at least.

I mean, every other attempt they've ever made, like the one in "Batman: Confidential", was f*cking dreck. They ultimately know that they'll never do a "better" Joker origin, but they don't wanna acknowledge Moore's contributions any more than they have to. So they throw some more garbage at the wall every now and again and hope that anyone likes it so they can make that the new "official" one.

That's my take, anyway. "Screw with Alan Moore" is part of the daily checklist over there at DC.
But then why would they use his Watchmen characters so often? That's my initial thought when reading this, but there could be an element I am missing.
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Old 08-12-2019, 06:43 PM   #32
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Not as good as the 2003 series, but hope they continue with season 6 one day.
Seasons 1-4 were as good as it gets for me but fast forward/season 5/back to the sewers were a real drop in quality for my personal tastes. 2012 for me was much more consistent.
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Old 08-12-2019, 08:28 PM   #33
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But then why would they use his Watchmen characters so often? That's my initial thought when reading this, but there could be an element I am missing.
He doesn't get any back-end compensation for that, as far as I'm aware. They were created under "work for hire" and were also based on pre-existing Charlton characters like Blue Beetle and Captain Atom (which DC had recently purchased outright at the time), so it's debatable as to whether he has any legitimate ownership claim. I'm going to say No, he doesn't.

I mean, it's definitely a gray area, because as you've said, they love tinkering with Watchmen but they've done everything they can to diminish and erase The Killing Joke. Moore wrote both works, but owns none of the characters, yet DC is fine playing with one group of toys but not the other.

As best I can figure it, it's something like: Watchmen is too iconic to ignore so they have to acknowledge it, and they get to do so without cutting Moore any extra checks. But Killing Joke is one of several stories that have "iffy" continuity (and people whine about the Batgirl stuff), so they don't really need to acknowledge it and would prefer not to because the guy who wrote it outspokenly hates the company. Why give anyone a chance to throw his name around and open that can of worms again if they can get around it?

Plus, DC also loves tinkering with Watchmen because they know how much Moore hates that. For many, many years, he's been outspoken and on-record that he would prefer NO movie, NO TV series, NO prequels, NO sequels... he wants it left alone and views every new thing with the "Watchmen" brand as a personal insult. So, of COURSE, they want to pick that scab because they're assholes.

Sounds petty, and it is, but Moore and DC have been having this pissing fight for around 30 years. It's a complicated relationship, but at the end of the day, he hates them and they really have no use for him, either, aside from exploiting him and his work when it's convenient.

I don't pretend to have all the answers, but that's the meat and potatoes of it.
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Old 08-12-2019, 11:55 PM   #34
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If they ask you about what the hierarchy of the Turtles in the 2012 series is you can answer with:
"Leonardo is the leader who almost buckles under the strain of the responsibilities which come with that and how to win the others' respect so they follow his orders without questioning them."
"Raphael is the bruiser with a short fuse who kicks first and asks questions later but has a heart of gold."
"Donatello is the nerdy, neurotic, technical genius, who isn't really into fighting but a bad ass in doing so either way."
"Michelangelo is the goofball who's always ready to lighten up the mood and is much more talented than he lets on."
And People will got "Yeah, just like they were in the old cartoon."

And if they start asking questions about fan favorites, like Mona Lisa, Bebop and Rocksteady, Shredder and Krang, or about characters like Bishop, the Utrom Council, the Earth Protection force, you can tell them "Yes indeed, they all appear in the series."
I would question how much someone actually watched of the old cartoon if they really thought that Raphael was a bruiser with a short fuse in it. Also I doubt most people are going to know who the heck Bishop, the Utrom Council, and the Earth Protection force are.
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