Apparently the Mutants are sterile post mutation

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by neatoman

If we're just going to deal with the April/Donnie thing in the 2012 cartoon in isolation, there are some things that can be said about it.

It is indeed more or less intended to be a running with only hints towards it being more than that. It's of course not impossible to write a running gag that keeps on being funny but it more or less stopped being funny very early on, in part because it is the core of some episodes and because it's brought up too often. It also doesn't help that Donnie tends to come across as a bit of a creep because of it. Part of the reason the Bigfoot sucks so much is because it had a clear chance end the gag and almost looked like it was going to, only for it to throw fuel on the dumpster fire at the last second. And did it ever go anywhere? No, not really, the show ended with a timeskip in which Donnie had turned into a robot and April was implied to have been killed by a nuke alongside most other supporting characters (that's a whole bunch of bullshit on it's own).

None of that required me to go "Ew, furries!" to criticise, because it just wasn't done well. I get what they were going for, I get most of what the 2012 cartoon was going for, it's just that much of what the 2012 cartoon did wasn't really working in practice. Donnie's crush on April is just one of many things that were a bit too awkward about that show.

I never really saw a problem, especially since it was a kid's cartoon and we were never gonna see Donnie bend April over, or even them doing long gratuitous kissing. I don't think he ever did anything all that 'creepy' beyond any person that age would do with a crush at that age. I just find it kinda cruel cause hey, Donnie is a turtle so ew. Even though regular turtles are pets, not your best bud with wisecracks and a knack for science.

It's just kind of a double-standard.

Girl admires her crush for a far, awww so sweet
Guy admires his crush from a far- ewww creep

handsome guy watches over girl cause he misses her and is concerned about her- awwww he misses her, awwww he's all heart broken

ugly guy watches over girl cause he misses her and is concerned about her- ewww creep, leave her the **** alone

I feel if Casey did anything Donnie did (while not being such a tool, I hate his personality), no one would complain. But have one of the turtles do it, ewwwwwww. Especially on a show where you know they're not gonna be screwing each other. Hell, Casey wasn't banging April either. It's not that kind of show.

[neatoman]

That version of Casey was a skinny goof with all of his front teeth missing, I'm not sure I'd call him "handsome".

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by neatoman

That version of Casey was a skinny goof with all of his front teeth missing, I'm not sure I'd call him "handsome".

I meant in other examples. But I think the way people hate the love triangle thing, is pretty much the 'handsome' human Casey VS the 'ugly' mutant Donnie.

[neatoman]

I mean it's not really that complicated. Donnie did things like make a flowchart that would lock April into a conversation and straight up shadowed her, the fact that he's a mutant turtle doesn't help but it's hardly the factor that makes him a creep.

If all they wanted was a harmless gag with some charm (which is mostly what it seemed like what they were going for), then all they needed to was show him be shy around her while she's oblivious, not have him do inappropriate things while April felt awkward about it.

And if we are going to bring Casey into this... I'm sorry to say this, anyone who actually liked the April/Donnie idea, but the mere fact that Casey didn't go overboard and was able to act naturally around her made it a little easier to root for him in this regard. And sure, him being a normal human does help a little but there are other more fundamental things at play here.

[Leo656]

Something like that shouldn't even be brought up as a recurring point in a kids' show of all things. That whole deal was one of the things I hated most about the Nick cartoon. Not only was it done VERY poorly and made Donnie look awful a lot of the time, but I mean... what was the "endgame" ever gonna be? Were they ever gonna "date" or something? Highly, highly unlikely, within the confines of childrens' programming. So what, then? Why bother? Why tease something that literally can never be used as more than fodder for bad jokes? And then furthermore why KEEP it going, to the extent that they did.

I'm not saying "Donnie and April should date and maybe hook up", I don't think that. But I think that if you know for a fact that it's not going to happen even as a hypothetical, because your storytelling medium won't ever allow for it... don't even raise the topic. A one-off gag like "Wow, she's actually hot.. for a human!" like in Mirage or the FW cartoon, that's tolerable. But to do a whole series of subplots across multiple Seasons with Donnie pining for her and scheming to win her over... the show was never gonna allow for that, they were never gonna be a "couple" and they weren't even gonna explore anything dramatic that might potentially come from such an entanglement, so it's just wasted real estate. And as neatoman said, it wasn't funny anyway.

Now, I do think there's some fertile storytelling real estate in say, a story where one of the Turtles develops feelings for April and they explore why they can't be a couple and how frustrating it is for the Turtles to not be able to have love in either a romantic or physical sense because of who/what they are... like, you don't need them to "hook up" to explore the topic and use it to enrich the characters involved in the story and give them a little depth and pathos.

But if you're NOT going to actually do anything but run a bad joke into the ground, don't even bring it up at all. That sh*t was so bad it almost by itself turned me off to the show. There were plenty of other things that made me not like the show, but that whole deal started bad and only got worse. I have no idea who gave the green light to that nonsense.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by neatoman

I mean it's not really that complicated. Donnie did things like make a flowchart that would lock April into a conversation and straight up shadowed her, the fact that he's a mutant turtle doesn't help but it's hardly the factor that makes him a creep.

Naw, if the roles were reversed and April was fawning over Donnie and was trying to get his attention and was showing a flowchart on how she planned to make it happen while a bored and annoyed (human) Irma was listening, it would be 'funny' or 'endearing'. No one would be calling her creepy. Maybe weird for wanting to go after a mutant, but not creepy.

[superstaff]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

Naw, if the roles were reversed and April was fawning over Donnie and was trying to get his attention and was showing a flowchart on how she planned to make it happen while a bored and annoyed (human) Irma was listening, it would be 'funny' or 'endearing'. No one would be calling her creepy. Maybe weird for wanting to go after a mutant, but not creepy.

I dunno. I am probably in the minority, but I thought the flowchart was hilarious, and I wouldn't mind a male or female doing it...mostly because it's a joke of how people overthink the way they interact with their crush, and try too hard to impress. I...didn't read into it as 'Omg Donatello is a StAlKeR!?!??!?'. I will say, as the show went on, the comedic aspect of Don/April got more stale and annoying, mostly because it was beating a dead horse. Their relationship went nowhere. There wasn't even a 'April rejects Don for Casey' type of thing either. It just...became pointless.

In case anyone cares, I didn't really ship Don/April, I preferred Casey/April in 2012 TMNT tbh, which also went nowhere.

[Leo656]

Back in my day, taking the long route between classes because it would allow you to catch a glimpse of your crush at her locker was considered "stalking" by some people - even though let's be real, a lot of us did that - so I definitely think having a FLOW CHART qualifies, and a lot more so.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Back in my day, taking the long route between classes because it would allow you to catch a glimpse of your crush at her locker was considered "stalking" by some people - even though let's be real, a lot of us did that - so I definitely think having a FLOW CHART qualifies, and a lot more so.

Honestly, I'm with superstaff. The threshold for "stalking" or creepy always seems too low. At the end of the day, he was a stupid teenage boy doing stupid things to try and impress a girl. The flow chart wasn't "stalking," it was a guy way, way overthinking things to try and eliminate all risk, which is a mindset that I completely understand. I've never done a flow chart, but I definitely have taken notes after dates and tried to alternate specific activities for maximum enjoyment, among other things, so I get it. Plus, it's just like that one episode of Gravity Falls, where Dipper makes that list, then later realizes he's overthinking it and tries to just be himself.

The only thing that really annoyed me was that since it was clear it wouldn't ever really get to go anywhere, it should have served for some jokes and then character development, which they almost did in the Bigfoot episode, only to kind of trash it right at the end. It doesn't show up as often after that, but it still shows up occaisionally, when that should have been the time they finally capped it off, with Don experiencing character growth and maturing.

[Leo656]

Well, I do kinda agree with Coola that there's double-standards in play, too. If a female character did the same stuff Donnie did she'd just be "quirky". But for a guy, it's definitely considered creepy and off-putting.

I don't make the rules, guys, I just know what The World says about that kinda stuff.

[Coola Yagami]

Another double-standard is women are sometimes quick to point out that the guy in a love is a jerk or creep because he doesn't take the woman's feelings into account (usually when said guy is unattractive). Yet no one says the same thing whenever a woman is pining for a guy that doesn't know she exist. If the girls turns him down, the guy has to suck it up and move on. If a guy turns down the girl, he's portrayed as a jerk, a bad guy or someone 'too stupid to know what's he's missing'. Like how dare he turn down our female main character??? He must be an asshole. Then something bad happens to him, or asks out a total bitch instead or whatever and that is implied to be some sort of comeuppance for turning down the female character.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

Another double-standard is women are sometimes quick to point out that the guy in a love is a jerk or creep because he doesn't take the woman's feelings into account (usually when said guy is unattractive). Yet no one says the same thing whenever a woman is pining for a guy that doesn't know she exist. If the girls turns him down, the guy has to suck it up and move on. If a guy turns down the girl, he's portrayed as a jerk, a bad guy or someone 'too stupid to know what's missing'. Like how dare he turn down our female main character???

Also, you're a bigot if you're a straight dude who won't consider dating a transexual woman.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Also, you're a bigot if you're a straight dude who won't consider dating a transexual woman.

We haven't seen any examples of that on tv shows and cartoons just yet, but give it a year or two I'm sure.

I'm sure we'll eventually see toxic white male Casey turn down transgirl April and be made look to be a complete asshole about it and the Turtles side with April and treat Casey like crap too, except when they need him as an extra body for a fight.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

We haven't seen any examples of that on tv shows and cartoons just yet, but give it a year or two I'm sure.

Not yet? There's gotta be one by now. Not "Euphoria"?

[superstaff]

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

Honestly, I'm with superstaff. The threshold for "stalking" or creepy always seems too low. At the end of the day, he was a stupid teenage boy doing stupid things to try and impress a girl. The flow chart wasn't "stalking," it was a guy way, way overthinking things to try and eliminate all risk, which is a mindset that I completely understand. I've never done a flow chart, but I definitely have taken notes after dates and tried to alternate specific activities for maximum enjoyment, among other things, so I get it. Plus, it's just like that one episode of Gravity Falls, where Dipper makes that list, then later realizes he's overthinking it and tries to just be himself.

The only thing that really annoyed me was that since it was clear it wouldn't ever really get to go anywhere, it should have served for some jokes and then character development, which they almost did in the Bigfoot episode, only to kind of trash it right at the end. It doesn't show up as often after that, but it still shows up occaisionally, when that should have been the time they finally capped it off, with Don experiencing character growth and maturing.

Thanks for understanding what I meant. I honestly do see it as a joke about teens overthinking how to act around their crushes. Yes, Gravity Falls also sprang to my mind when thinking about the flowchart gag as well. That's the thing, I just see it as a joke, a metaphor. Making flowcharts and lists aren't...'problematic' to me, whether it's a male or female doing them, especially in the context of a cartoon that's trying to make a joke out of it. I have qualms with the Don/April relationship in this show, though the flowchart thing isn't really a huge deal or anything harmful. I also recognize that these are teenagers, fictional ones as well.

Oh, and yeah, it seems like after the Bigfoot episode, they still cooled off on Don/April being a joke. As you said, it still popped up, just much less frequently. The show had a lot of storylines they were going through at the time, so the shipping stuff took a backseat.

...Also, Mutant Apocalypse does make it all moot anyhow. (Again, Nick doesn't consider it canon, but if the creator says it's what he envisioned as the ending...)

[Zog The Magnificent]

Originally Posted by superstaff

...Also, Mutant Apocalypse does make it all moot anyhow. (Again, Nick doesn't consider it canon, but if the creator says it's what he envisioned as the ending...)

Oh man, don't even bring THAT one up again. Wars have been fought over that special.

[superstaff]

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

Oh man, don't even bring THAT one up again. Wars have been fought over that special.

I hated it.

I hate it as an ending for TMNT (any TMNT, really, not even just the 2012 turtles). I hate it as an 'experiment' for the franchise. I hate it as a 'homage' to Mad Max and other post-apocalyptic stories. I also thought it was one of the worst episodes of the show itself.

I just hated it.

[TigerClaw]

Originally Posted by superstaff

Thanks for understanding what I meant. I honestly do see it as a joke about teens overthinking how to act around their crushes. Yes, Gravity Falls also sprang to my mind when thinking about the flowchart gag as well. That's the thing, I just see it as a joke, a metaphor. Making flowcharts and lists aren't...'problematic' to me, whether it's a male or female doing them, especially in the context of a cartoon that's trying to make a joke out of it. I have qualms with the Don/April relationship in this show, though the flowchart thing isn't really a huge deal or anything harmful. I also recognize that these are teenagers, fictional ones as well.

Oh, and yeah, it seems like after the Bigfoot episode, they still cooled off on Don/April being a joke. As you said, it still popped up, just much less frequently. The show had a lot of storylines they were going through at the time, so the shipping stuff took a backseat.

...Also, Mutant Apocalypse does make it all moot anyhow. (Again, Nick doesn't consider it canon, but if the creator says it's what he envisioned as the ending...)

I always support the creator's decision regardless of what the studio thinks, Nick has really screwed that series by moving episodes around, The whole mutant apocalypse arc and the Halloween themed episodes were moved straight to Nicktoons for some bizarre reason.

[superstaff]

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

I always supports someone's creative decision regardless of what the studio thinks, Nick has really screwed that series by moving episodes around, The whole mutant apocalypse ark and the Halloween themed episodes were moved straight to Nicktoons for some bizarre reason.

Yeah... I do, too, even if it's something I really dislike. I still feel immense disappointment when I feel like it sucks.

Nickelodeon...has had a history of doing this to various shows, whether it's punting them off to Nicktoons or to their (crappy) video player on their website. Legend of Korra, Winx Club, Welcome to the Wayne, etc etc.

[Leo656]

Well again, to be clear I do "get it", it's just... not how the world works.

I'm a bit sensitive to it because I went through it in high school. There was a girl I had a HUGE crush on, and we didn't have any classes together but we did have a ton of friends in common. So I figured even if we couldn't go out maybe we could at least be friends. It didn't really go well in the end - some of her friends were in her ear, come to find out, stirring the pot, making me sound like a bad guy, etc. - but I mean, kids are weird at that age.

But I mean, I wasn't literally being a creep. Just "usual teenager stuff", like the aforementioned "take the long way to class because it goes right past her locker", or "Sit through a football game I don't care about just because she's the head cheerleader and she looks hot in the outfit" type of stuff. Everybody does that.

But a few of my friends who knew I had a crush on her really liked to twist the knife and be like "You're such a stalker, man". Sometimes it wasn't in jest, like I had a really bad argument with one of them about something totally unrelated, and in the midst of his rant about why I was an asshole for multiple reasons he was like "Meanwhile you go around stalking so-and-so like it doesn't make you a f*cking creep." This guy meanwhile cheated on every girl he ever went out with and was physically abusive with at least one of them that I'm aware of, but sure, I was the dirtbag because I walked past a girl's locker a few times.

But anyway, I became really sensitive to it, so I finally just worked up the nerve to ask the girl if we could be friends (believe it or not I was very awkwardly shy around girls back then and it took a lot for me to try and strike up a conversation). She said no, and that was that, and it sucked; come to find out, as I mentioned, some people she later stopped being friends with were kind of painting me in a bad light to her, so I understand her perspective at that time even though the stuff people were saying about me wasn't true. But she had no shortage of guys chasing her so she had to protect herself, I get that. Anyway, after that I just moved on. Since we still had lots of mutual friends, we still saw each other often, which was awkward; every time we were in the same place, I was afraid someone was going to accuse me of "stalking" her, but it never came up.

I was most afraid near the end of Senior year when I was in a pageant; it was a guys' pageant, and we each had a female "escort", and that girl was one of the escorts for someone else. We were between segments doing "costume change" and I couldn't find the girl I was with, and I needed to tell her something important, so while I was frantically searching for her backstage I turned a corner and saw the girl I had been crushing on... standing there in just her bra and panties. WHOOPS! To her credit, she didn't make it weird, she just kinda blinked (she was in drama so I'm sure lots of guys saw her in such a state), and I was like "Oh SH*T, sorry, I was looking for Jen", covered my eyes and walked back the way I came. We made small talk a few times here and there towards the end of the school year but she never even brought it up, thankfully. But yeah, when THAT happened I was sure all the stupid jokes about me "stalking" her were gonna start up again, but thankfully they did not.

But anyway, having been in such a situation I know how stuff works and I know how certain things are perceived. Donnie's behavior in the Nick show would never, ever fly, and in real life nobody would write it off as "typical teenage stuff" or "harmless crushing." He'd be ostracized and ridiculed by his peers.

A bit of a happy post-script to my story, though; me and the girl I used to crush on are actually buddies on Facebook now. We didn't talk for 20 years but there was a FB Group for people trying to get the reunion going (didn't happen, because of Covid), and a bunch of people were posting pics of what they've been up to in recent years and I noticed that she of all people was the first person to Like or Comment on mine. That was a surprise, but I figured "Screw it, send a request, see what happens" and she accepted immediately. She's doing great, married, couple kids, all that, and I'm very happy for her; she dated some real creeps in high school and that always bugged me, so I'm really happy it all worked out great for her. We don't really like "chat" but we Like and comment on each others' posts often, like we were both sick with the same bug recently so we were doing the whole supportive thing. She's sorry things were weird back in school, but she's not friends with the people who were in her ear back then anymore so she seems a lot more laid back.

It's just funny how that all worked out. I really figured if anything if she ever saw my name or my picture she'd be like "Oh, Jesus, not THAT guy," but instead it was the exact opposite. Pretty neat!

But yeah, it wasn't fun at the time when people were calling me a "stalker" for walking past her locker. But that's how people are, like I said I don't make the rules.