Ranking the TMNT movies

[primetime34]

A little background. I have been a turtles fan since the original series (which I watched as a child). I'm pretty new to the comics (just the last 2 years) though.
I am just about finished re-watching every single TMNT movie, TV series, and reading all the main comic series. I thought it might be fun to share my rankings of each here. I'll put a few of my thoughts on it as well. I'll go in reverse order.

8. Turtles 3 - Turtles in Time - I just didn't really like this one. Too campy...the animatronics aren't as good (definitely could tell it wasn't Jim Hansen). Would I watch it again? Only if somebody really wanted to turn it on.


7. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (2014) - I was excited to see a new TMNT movie. However, there are some things that definitely disappointed me. It felt like this was more of an April movie (because Megan Fox I'm guessing) than a Turtles movie. The obvious addition of the other Shredder disconnected me from the plot quite a bit. Plus...they're just too big!


6. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Out of the Shadows - I like this a little better than it's predecessor. There was certainly more of a TMNT focus in this one. Plus it had Bebop and Rocksteady, so that is always a plus for me. I'm was disappointed that they chose to end this series after this movie though.


5. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2 - More nostalgic than anything. I was a little disappointed with a change in Aprils. The final fight with Super Shredder wasn't as good as I wanted. I didn't like that they weren't allowed to show weapon use. I did (and still do) enjoy seeing Vanilla Ice do Ninja Rap (huge nostalgia pop for me). I would have preferred Rocksteady and Bebop over Tokka and Razar, but I liked the addition of those two.


4. TMNT - This CGI movie really was a sleeper for me. I went into it with pretty low expectations and they were exceeded. I liked that they created a movie beyond the Shredder...which is something that a successful TMNT movie franchise will have to do if they want to be a multiple movie franchise. I'm not sure why this one didn't do as well (commercially), but I really enjoyed it. Plus, the Raphael (my favorite turtle) and Leonardo fight was pretty amazing. One of the best scenes from any of the turtle movies in my opinion.


3. Batman vs Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles - This movie starts a new tier of turtle movies that are the cream of the crop. I love this movie. I wish it followed the comic a little better (I missed having Splinter in it) but it really was a fantastic movie. I appreciated that each turtle was able to really have a moment where their unique personality traits were able to shine (or multiple for Michelangelo). I haven't heard if there are any plans to make a sequel (or two) based on the comics, but I would absolutely love to see that. It was dark when it needed to be, gave a serious Shredder villain, but had enough humor to make it feel like the majority of the turtles movies that I have watched. If you haven't seen this one, go out of your way to do so.


2. Turtles Forever - Are there problems with this movie? Sure. I wish the original voice actors from the '87 series could have been in this movie. However, even with that aside, this takes a fantastic version of the turtles (2k3) and combines them with what started my fandom with the turtles (original '87 series). Was it a nostalgic nod to those of us who grew up watching the original series? Sure! However, I feel it was done it a tremendously effective way. Including the original Mirage turtles in it was amazing as well. This is the turtles movie I have probably watched the most (my children love it!). In fact, just typing this makes me want to sit down with them and watch it again!


1. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (1990) - I'm sure it is cliche to have this one on the top of a list, but there is a reason why it is on the top of so many lists. I remember there being TV commercials that ran during the day to win free tickets to this movie, which I was able to win. My parents took my brother and I to see this one in the theater. I loved it then and I love it now. It shows the seriousness of what the turtles face, but still has the humor that hooked a child like me to watch the tv show. I, like Splinter, have always preferred "Cowabunga"!

What are your thoughts on my list? Any choices you agree with? Vehemently disagree with? Let me know!

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Holy $hit, man, make that post legible! It's an eyesore...

[primetime34]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Holy $hit, man, make that post legible! It's an eyesore...

Sorry about that. I tried to put paragraph breaks in and bold each entry. Any other suggestions on how to make it more legible?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by primetime34

Sorry about that. I tried to put paragraph breaks in and bold each entry. Any other suggestions on how to make it more legible?

No, man, it's beautiful now. Now I'mma read your post. Thanks for the cleanup! Really nice formatting.

[Leo656]

Yeah, list ranking order ain't bad but give each movie its own paragraph, please. Put a space line in between each entry so it's not just a giant wall.

EDIT: Whoops, you did it while I was typing! Awesome! Thanks buddy!

Otherwise, not bad. Other than I really can't abide the Vanilla Ice bullsh*t. There's a solid chance that if I could remove one singular thing from the entire franchise, I might delete Vanilla Ice and let every single other thing remain, even things I don't like or can't stand.

Vanilla Ice is what forever cemented the franchise in the "Man, this really IS all just stupid sh*t for little kids, isn't it?" category. Way more than anything else ever did. Before that, there was a chance the franchise might be taken semi-seriously one day. After that flash-in-the-pan, Gumby-haired pole-smoker showed up, though? Done. "Wow, this TMNT stuff is sooooo DUMB." Plus, it's dated. He was already a nobody again by that point!

There's a LOT of TMNT stuff I hate. But I'd argue that few things hurt the brand on such a massive scale as much as he did. I never liked it and I'll never forgive it.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Fair warning, gentle readers: I'm a joyless prick who doesn't like fun or nostalgia.

TMNT 1990
The OG. The best TMNT film we've ever had. It's not that great, but it's the only one worth watching IMO. A lotta good character development, even if Shredder is some TV-jacking evil stepdad to a bunch of delinquents.

TMNT 2: SOTO
Really, this is the only other live-action film I have any desire to rewatch, just because I remember watching it as a kid at my best friend's birthday party. I'm sure I'll hate it if I ever do rewatch it, but I feel I owe it one.

TMNT 2007
I suppose I could rewatch this one with my kids if they wanted to see it. But to put so much development and money into a CGI film that looked really good... to waste a story on a bunch of no-nothing original villains no one even REMEMBERS, much less cared about when the movie was still in theaters? So much wasted opportunity.

TMNT III
Nah, I've never wanted to rewatch this one. They took "Masks" and cut out all the good parts. No Renet, no ancient Foot Clan origins, no destiny, and the costumes sucked.

TMNT 2014: Thanks, Michael Bay
I'm embarrassed to this day I paid for a movie ticket. I wanted to believe it would be good and overlooked everything about it. Such a travesty. We all know what's wrong with it, and the list would take too long to rewrite. The nostrils were the least of that movie's problems. That was the last time I ever had optimism for the TMNT brand.

TMNT 2016: Michael Bay Bends Us Over Again
All of the same problems, a bunch of new ones, and it killed the film franchise. At least I'd trashed my rose-colored glasses and didn't bother watching it.

And now, films I don't think are even worth mentioning... because if you don't have a theatrical release, you're not a real film.

Batman Vs TMNT
Terrible comics that were stupid aren't going to make a movie that isn't terrible or stupid. Didn't bother watching.

Turtles Forever
4Kids TMNT is the only animated TMNT I like, so why on earth would I want to watch a crossover with the Fred Wolf TMNT, the Technodrome, Bebop and Rocksteady, and all that bull$hit? Easy pass. I pretend it doesn't exist. Just like Ninja Tribunal, Fast Forward, and Back to the Sewers!

[primetime34]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Otherwise, not bad. Other than I really can't abide the Vanilla Ice bullsh*t. There's a solid chance that if I could remove one singular thing from the entire franchise, I might delete Vanilla Ice and let every single other thing remain, even things I don't like or can't stand.

Vanilla Ice is what forever cemented the franchise in the "Man, this really IS all just stupid sh*t for little kids, isn't it?" category. Way more than anything else ever did. Before that, there was a chance the franchise might be taken semi-seriously one day. After that flash-in-the-pan, Gumby-haired pole-smoker showed up, though? Done. "Wow, this TMNT stuff is sooooo DUMB." Plus, it's dated. He was already a nobody again by that point!

There's a LOT of TMNT stuff I hate. But I'd argue that few things hurt the brand on such a massive scale as much as he did. I never liked it and I'll never forgive it.

It's true...the Vanilla Ice part is outdated and doesn't show well. It's goofy, weird, and causes people to look at the movie with a sideway glance...but I listened to a lot of Vanilla Ice when he was popular. It's probably embarrassing to admit, but I know all the words to Ice, Ice Baby. It was huge where I lived so that part really caused me to pop then. Cringe a little now, but still have some nostalgic moments. Thanks for your thoughts!

[primetime34]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Fair warning, gentle readers: I'm a joyless prick who doesn't like fun or nostalgia.

I appreciate that warning up front. You really haven't enjoyed many of the movies. Thanks for sharing your thoughts though...always good to see other people's thoughts...

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by primetime34

I appreciate that warning up front. You really haven't enjoyed many of the movies. Thanks for sharing your thoughts though...always good to see other people's thoughts...

If I were ranking them 20 years ago, before I stopped being a TMNT fan for the first time, the opinions would be a lot brighter.

And there'd be fewer movies to rank. And no swearing.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by primetime34

It's true...the Vanilla Ice part is outdated and doesn't show well. It's goofy, weird, and causes people to look at the movie with a sideway glance...but I listened to a lot of Vanilla Ice when he was popular. It's probably embarrassing to admit, but I know all the words to Ice, Ice Baby. It was huge where I lived so that part really caused me to pop then. Cringe a little now, but still have some nostalgic moments. Thanks for your thoughts!

He seems like a somewhat decent human being, and I'm glad he didn't kill himself when he went through his bout of suicidal depression upon realizing that rich people don't have any real friends. It's a hard lesson to learn, depression sucks, and I'm glad he overcame. Seems like he's probably a nice guy.

That said, he's never entertained me, and while I'd have a beer or three with him and we'd probably laugh it up, I'd never want to see him in a movie or listen to his music again.

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Turtles Forever
4Kids TMNT is the only animated TMNT I like, so why on earth would I want to watch a crossover with the Fred Wolf TMNT, the Technodrome, Bebop and Rocksteady, and all that bull$hit? Easy pass. I pretend it doesn't exist. Just like Ninja Tribunal, Fast Forward, and Back to the Sewers!

You'd actually probably get a kick out of it for the exact same reason a lot of FW apologists can't abide it: They pretty much take a frothing piss all over the FW cartoon versions of those characters. I can't make you watch it, but I'm pretty sure if you like 2K3 at all you'd be entertained. The whole movie is essentially, "WE'RE the GOOD Ninja Turtles, you guys are f*cking clowns." People who hate FW generally get much more enjoyment out of it than others for that exact reason. It's far from "reverent" in its portrayal of those characters, so if you hate FW, good news!

I mean, do what you want, I just don't feel like your 90 minutes would be wasted. I feel you on TMNT/Batman, though. People keep telling me I'd like it and everything about it just seems... blech. I can't even read the comics, everything about them is so awful.

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

TMNT 1990
It's not that great

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

You'd actually probably get a kick out of it for the exact same reason a lot of FW apologists can't abide it: They pretty much take a frothing piss all over the FW cartoon versions of those characters. I can't make you watch it, but I'm pretty sure if you like 2K3 at all you'd be entertained. The whole movie is essentially, "WE'RE the GOOD Ninja Turtles, you guys are f*cking clowns." People who hate FW generally get much more enjoyment out of it than others for that exact reason. It's far from "reverent" in its portrayal of those characters, so if you hate FW, good news!

I'd rather pretend the FW Turtles don't even exist, not make fun of them. But crossovers aren't my bag anyway.

Originally Posted by Leo656

https://64.media.tumblr.com/de2c20a4...upqo5_250.gifv

Shredder should be killing, gunrunning, drug smuggling, pimping hookers, and blackmailing politicians and people of repute! Not jacking TVs and bullying fatherless kids.

Is he an evil ninja clan leader or a high school bully!?

[Leo656]

Okay, there's a LOT you're not considering about the storyline reality of 1990 film, though.

1. They were trying to make a REAL movie and not a chop-socky flick or a cartoon. Thus, things have to be grounded in reality at least to a certain degree.

2. By all in-story accounts, and as an extension of Point 1, the American branch of the Foot Clan is about 5 minutes old. The crime wave is said to be a very recent development. You have to start somewhere. I have zero doubt that Saki had aspirations to "Rule The City" or some other hokey comic book horseh*t, but even then you can't start with that. You can't go around committing political assassinations and enforcing full-scale gang warfare when you don't even have a base to stand on yet.

3. Cults have to start somewhere, and that's ultimately what the Foot is, a cult. Who is he going to recruit for his Kill/Murder/Steal Cult? Grown men with jobs and families? People with priorities who make good decisions? If he were treating it like starting a dodgeball team and putting out a sign-up list that said "HEY, I need a bunch of people to go around breaking sh*t, stealing sh*t, and dressing up like TV Ninjas, it'll be fun"... be honest, what demographic is going to most likely jump to be first in line? Exactly what kind of person is going to say "HEY, that doesn't sound stupid at all, that sounds awesome! Sign me up!"

The Answer: Stupid, impressionable, disillusioned kids. THAT'S who would say that kinda sh*t sounds like a good life choice. That's EXACTLY who would join the Foot Clan if this sh*t were real. Start small with a bunch of really stupid, really angry people, and "grow" your "business" exponentially from there. The fact that there was even a single female in the entire cult is what's shocking to me; girls are generally much smarter than that. Teenage boys who think smoking cigarettes is cool, though? Yeah, they're morons, they wanna act out, they wanna "Be Tough", and they wanna be big shots. "I need a thousand people by like, tomorrow, so I can go on a crime spree." Well, you're not gonna be getting grown adults to throw down for that. Even in Real Life, the adults who live that life ALWAYS get into it as teenagers.

It's just being true to life, that's all.

4. I'm sure he also had some drug smuggling going on on the side, or at least was getting there - we know for a fact he was smuggling cigarettes - but again, you can't exactly go there and show the Foot packing bricks of heroin when 95% of the paying audience was under the age of 10. Think practically.

You're picturing the movie you would have made without considering whether or not that would actually play well within the context of what they were going for. Sure, they could have done exactly what you'd prefer... but then it's literally no different from all those made-for-video Charles Bronson flicks that have no tether to reality.

The fact that the film is grounded and everything about it makes practical sense is WHY it has such cross-over appeal and why people who never watched TMNT in their lives still enjoy it. It's realistic and believable.

What you want would not have made it a better movie. It just would have been What You Wanted To See, but that's all.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I'm going straight to the other end of the spectrum for comparison. Obviously the film isn't going to be Scarface, but with Turtles.

My point is, which I've made before, is that the Foot Clan should be more intimidating than a gang of adolescent children. The recruiting makes sense, yeah. And it IS a kids' movie. And given that the film picks up... somebody remind me, how many years after the Saki/Yoshi/Splinter confrontation? We don't need to see the Clan so basic.

Maybe just allude to a couple of murders, or something more evil than five-fingered discounts. It's NYC, for fvck's sakes.

It just feels too Pinocchio to me.

[Leo656]

The audience paying to see it was under 10.

You're looking at it with adult eyes and what you'd want to see now. There was no adult audience for TMNT in 1990. Zero. Nobody would have asked for that, thus they didn't do that. Simple.

The fact that it is what it is, is a miracle. By all rights, what "Secret of the Ooze" was, is what the first movie probably "should" have been if all they did was cater to the existing base. It's a miracle they decided to make it a "real" movie in the first place. They haven't made a "real" movie with TMNT since, and they never will again.

But yeah, there's absolutely no reason to expect them to have made a movie for grown-ups who like Jackie Chan movies out of a property that was 100% at the time aimed at little kids. Not in 1990.

That said, if they kept making "real" movies, there's no reason to expect that these things you crave couldn't have easily happened by the third movie or something. The Foot could have grown exponentially, perhaps under a new leader, if only they didn't take a hard left turn into Cartoon Land with the very next film. Say, if they'd introduced Karai, and she "rebooted" the Foot into something bigger and more sinister. "Oroku Saki lacked vision, he was too easily distracted," something like that. Then BAM, we're right where you want it to be.

That would've worked. Too bad they f*cking had to go 100% into Kiddie Land and stay there. I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, I'm just saying you're expectations are a bit too high and a bit misplaced. You're doing what a lot of people do, and putting what you'd personally prefer to see over what actually would have worked.

The movie worked, and it worked because they specifically made the exact choices that they did in terms of story, plot, character and theme. No other version of a TMNT movie would ever, or will ever have so much appeal to both little kids and grown-ups who never cared before. It's because everyone in either group can watch that one specific movie and find something real and relateable in it. No TMNT movie since can claim that.

The Charles Bronson chop-socky stuff would've been too hokey to lead in with. It would've been like every single Roddy Piper movie. "A fun ride, but 100% farcical". Nobody would've taken it seriously.

Try and consider it as much a story about the "origins" of the Foot Clan as much as it is about the origins of the Turtles, and these things make a lot more sense. Both sides of the "war" are on the rise, they parallel each other in that way. That's undoubtedly deliberate and entirely on purpose.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Spoiler:

The audience paying to see it was under 10.

You're looking at it with adult eyes and what you'd want to see now. There was no adult audience for TMNT in 1990. Zero. Nobody would have asked for that, thus they didn't do that. Simple.

The fact that it is what it is, is a miracle. By all rights, what "Secret of the Ooze" was, is what the first movie probably "should" have been if all they did was cater to the existing base. It's a miracle they decided to make it a "real" movie in the first place. They haven't made a "real" movie with TMNT since, and they never will again.

But yeah, there's absolutely no reason to expect them to have made a movie for grown-ups who like Jackie Chan movies out of a property that was 100% at the time aimed at little kids. Not in 1990.

That said, if they kept making "real" movies, there's no reason to expect that these things you crave couldn't have easily happened by the third movie or something. The Foot could have grown exponentially, perhaps under a new leader, if only they didn't take a hard left turn into Cartoon Land with the very next film. Say, if they'd introduced Karai, and she "rebooted" the Foot into something bigger and more sinister. "Oroku Saki lacked vision, he was too easily distracted," something like that. Then BAM, we're right where you want it to be.

That would've worked. Too bad they f*cking had to go 100% into Kiddie Land and stay there. I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, I'm just saying you're expectations are a bit too high and a bit misplaced. You're doing what a lot of people do, and putting what you'd personally prefer to see over what actually would have worked.

The movie worked, and it worked because they specifically made the exact choices that they did in terms of story, plot, character and theme. No other version of a TMNT movie would ever, or will ever have so much appeal to both little kids and grown-ups who never cared before. It's because everyone in either group can watch that one specific movie and find something real and relateable in it. No TMNT movie since can claim that.

The Charles Bronson chop-socky stuff would've been too hokey to lead in with. It would've been like every single Roddy Piper movie. "A fun ride, but 100% farcical". Nobody would've taken it seriously.

Try and consider it as much a story about the "origins" of the Foot Clan as much as it is about the origins of the Turtles, and these things make a lot more sense. Both sides of the "war" are on the rise, they parallel each other in that way. That's undoubtedly deliberate and entirely on purpose.

I dunno, man, the Mirage comics seemed targeted a little older than 10 years old. I get WHY the movie is how it was. But that doesn't mean they couldn't skew it a little more mature.

$hit, look at The Incredibles. (Fresh in my mind because the kids just rewatched it.) Syndrome isn't fvcking around; he's willing to do a lotta dark $hit, and THAT movie is absolutely aimed at the juice-box crowd.

The fight scenes aren't played for laughs; there aren't any cymbals or silly spinning around on the floor.

1990 gets the Turtles, April, and Casey pretty much perfect. (Though I'll also insist Leo and Don get way too little development compared to Raph and Mike.) But I think it completely drops the ball on the antagonists, 10 year-old audience or no.

[Autbot_Benz]

TMNT 1990
SOTO
Batman VS TMNT
TMNT turtles in Time

Forget the rest especially those atrocious bayturtles movies

[Powder]

1. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
2. Secret Of The Ooze
3. Turtles In Time (since it's apparently been retroactively titled that)
4. Turtles Forever
5. TMNT
6. Out Of The Shadows
7. Casey Jones (Fan film, deserves an honorable mention IMO)
8. Vs. Batman
9. Bayturtles

[neatoman]

Well if we're really gonna count Batman Vs and Forever, here's the "objective list":

1. TMNT 1990
2. Batman Vs
3. TMNT 2007
4. Forever
5. TMNT 2014
6. SotO
7. OotS
8. III

And the more subjective list:

1. TMNT 2007
2. Forever
3. Batman Vs
4. TMNT 1990
5. SotO
6. TMNT 2014
7. III
8. OotS

The first list is me simply trying to think in terms of "Can the plot be understood? Can I follow the cinematography? Are the characters believable? Are the effects reasonably convincing? How many scenes serve a purpose?". That is to say, criteria I would go by if I try to ignore my biases, stuff almost anyone would use to determine wheter or not a movie works.

The second one also includes factors like "Is this what I want from the franchise? Is it pissing me off?".

Of course, both of these are just going by memory, for better accuaracy I would have to rewatch all of them... But I think half of these are total trash, so I don't want to.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

My list is (From best to worst):

Tmnt 1990
Turtles Forever
Secret of the Ooze
Tmnt 3
Out of the Shadows
Tmnt 2007
Batman vs Tmnt
Tmnt 2014

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

I dunno, man, the Mirage comics seemed targeted a little older than 10 years old. I get WHY the movie is how it was. But that doesn't mean they couldn't skew it a little more mature.

$hit, look at The Incredibles. (Fresh in my mind because the kids just rewatched it.) Syndrome isn't fvcking around; he's willing to do a lotta dark $hit, and THAT movie is absolutely aimed at the juice-box crowd.

The fight scenes aren't played for laughs; there aren't any cymbals or silly spinning around on the floor.

1990 gets the Turtles, April, and Casey pretty much perfect. (Though I'll also insist Leo and Don get way too little development compared to Raph and Mike.) But I think it completely drops the ball on the antagonists, 10 year-old audience or no.

Figuratively "nobody" read those comics, though, especially not then and that's still true to this day. People don't know what "Mirage" is because they've read it, they know what it is because they read about it in a factoid list about TMNT on Buzzfeed or something. And they don't even get that right, they read about it and think it's "Bloodsport" or something, full of T&A and F-bombs and gallons of blood, because that's what OTHER people who never read it, but are paid to make those lists, generally describe it as. The fact that SO much disinformation about Mirage exists, is because it's a pimple on the ass of pop culture, and I'm sorry if that hurts peoples' feelings but it's absolutely true. Nobody knows what Mirage actually even is, because outside of this very forum, 99% of people who know about TMNT never saw it. That was a hundred times MORE true in 1990, pre-internet, than it is now. Why on Earth would they have ever gone that route with a movie?

Even merely positing "It should've been more like Mirage" is foolish given the fact that they were making the movie in 1989 (and the very idea of the movie had been constantly rejected for years prior). Again, we're projecting with a modern lens on something that wasn't even a little bit feasible to think about Back Then.

Suicide, that's what it would have been. Commercial and critical suicide. You can't do those things you're pining for until AFTER you've won over the audience for your "kids movie" and gained their trust (and that of their parents, more importantly, since they're the ones paying for the tickets) that you're not pandering or insulting their intelligence. You can't have a bunch of kids buy tickets to a movie expecting Bebop and Rocksteady and then have Shredder dealing heroin and ninjas cutting people's throats and Leo disemboweling Shredder with his swords. You can't DO that. Not right out of the gate, I'm sorry. You have to gain peoples' trust, first.

Pretty much every complaint "purists" have about the 1990 movie can be countered with, "They wanted more than ten people to go see it." That's really all it comes down to.

Mature as it was, even with the concessions they made to the FW audience and their Moms, they still got angry phone calls and they had to cut the balls off for the sequel. That tells you EVERYTHING you need to know. If they'd have made the movie you'd prefer to watch, it simply wouldn't have worked. Not as the Very First TMNT movie. BEST case, they do alright but they get a ton of angry phone calls - which I'll say again, they already did get with the movie they made - and then the sequel goes 100% FW with Bebop, Rocksteady, etc. So that's a Loss. WORST case, they lose a ton of money because the main audience either ignores it or their parents won't let them watch it, they get a ton of angry phone calls AND there is no sequel.

Would you really prefer either of those scenarios? Honestly. Because those two scenarios are the only ones that could have happened in that specific time and place. It's easy to play Monday Morning Quarterback and make projections on what one would prefer to have seen or done, but that doesn't mean it has any basis in objective reality for the situation as it was Then.

I'm not saying I don't appreciate the same things you do. I'm just trying to be practical and not trying to project my own Wants onto a commercial piece of entertainment that was already a very risky venture in the first place. Nobody in Hollywood even wanted to make the movie, OR they wanted it to be a full-blown cartoon. No middle ground. It's a MIRACLE that it is what it is. No exaggeration, a MIRACLE. To ask for anything more isn't being realistic. It was never gonna happen.

What SHOULD have happened was, they make the first film exactly what it was, and since it did so well, they continue to lean into that for the sequels, in which case, sure, the movie you wish you'd gotten inevitably would have happened. But they could NOT have made that movie FIRST. They'd have queered the whole deal right out of the gate. No question. They should have ignored the Soccer Mommies, kept the tone and the aesthetic the same and gradually increased the threats and even the violence, AFTER they'd won people over with the first one being a "Best of Both Worlds" kinda thing.

Instead, they caved to the Soccer Mommies for the sequels and now the franchise is a goddamn joke. I'm as upset about that as you are.

Personally, I feel like nowadays, people spend so much time projecting, "Well, What *I* would have done was..." into things that they fail to see the beauty in what actually exists. And whether it's movies or anything else, that's no way to live. You can't ever appreciate anything at all, that way. I'm not saying, "Don't wish for things", but wish in one hand and sh*t in the other, one of 'em fills up faster.

People who can't fully appreciate TMNT 1990 because they're too busy writing their own movie in their head? Both hands must be completely covered in sh*t, by now, but their wishes for what that movie should have been won't ever come true. That's all I'm saying. At some point, one should learn to appreciate What Is more than What Can Never Be. It's healthier and more practical.

Fight scenes could've been a lot more serious, though, I grant that wholeheartedly. I've said this about the sequels, but I feel it's true here as well, I think the suits were just too damn fragile to do anything more than what they did. Which is unfortunate, but again... it is what it is. That entire movie, warts and all, is literally The Best it Was Ever Gonna Be by the limitations and circumstances of the time and place it was made. Pining for it to be even 1% different in any way simply isn't being realistic. Even the stuff I don't like about it, I have to just shrug and say, "Well... that's all they could have done with it."

Believe me, it's not "perfect". It's just that MOST of the complaints aren't practical, they're just wishful thinking, and for what it's worth, it's never gonna be surpassed so might as well just take it on its own terms and be grateful it even exists in the state it's in.
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- I really can't speak to The Incredibles parallel, on account of I haven't seen it and don't really care to. But in regards to animation vs. live action, we all know you can get away with a LOT more when it's a cartoon. People complain about things in live action super-hero movies, like violence or plot holes or whatever, that they willingly handwave if an animated project does the same thing. Different medium, different standards apply. It's a known and proven fact. Having not seen the movie, I'll just have to take your word for the rest of it. Point still stands, though, you have a longer "leash" in a cartoon.

- Leo and Don sure could've gotten more time to shine, but Mikey was the most popular one with kids and the whole movie's really centered on Raph's arc about his anger getting him in trouble, which makes sense because that's a lesson kids the age of the TMNT audience in 1990 would have done well to be presented with, and it's not a very long movie, so... ((shrug)). Leo being my favorite, I selfishly wish he had more to do, but he still had a little arc of his own with learning to appreciate Raph more and not be so high-and-mighty towards him, so that's better than nothing I guess. Donnie, as I've said often, is too smart for most people to write for because the writers aren't as smart as he's supposed to be, so he always gets the shaft and probably always will. It's a shame, but I'unno. If nothing else, I liked that he was portrayed as being genuinely "thoughtful", and not just "smart". That was nice.

Again, I grab hold of small victories when I know they're all I'm gonna get.