Democrats gear up to investigate Trump

[Voltron]

This isn't exactly a free exchange of ideas. It's more just a round table of "cucking libtards".

As much as Trump could cure cancer and still be considered a villain by some, he could literally CAUSE cancer and still be adored by others.

It's weird. I feel like we live in different dimensions. We're convinced of two completely separate realities. The only similarities being that Donald Trump is the POTUS.

Weird.

[BartAllen]

Originally Posted by The Deadman

Trump could cure cancer tomorrow and the media would say he conspired with Russia for it to happen.

I'm not entirely sure of that. Chris Cuomo surprised me the other week. He talked about how the wall isn't necessarily a bad idea. He also pointed out the hypocrisy of congress being so against it now when less than a decade ago they were in favor of it. Granted, that wasn't praise of Trump, but it showed that he is at least judging the situation based on the merits of said situation.

Now if we could only get the rest of the media to follow suit.

Originally Posted by Voltron

As much as Trump could cure cancer and still be considered a villain by some, he could literally CAUSE cancer and still be adored by others.

It's weird. I feel like we live in different dimensions. We're convinced of two completely separate realities. The only similarities being that Donald Trump is the POTUS.

I like this. It's a reasonable response. Nice.

I don't believe in 'owning libtards'. I have a number of friends and relatives that are progressive socialists. I have heated debates with them often. I think they do raise some valid points. I'm always willing to listen to unbiased sources. The problem is the MSM is biased. It wants ratings and Trump is giving them ratings. So it's in their best interest to stoke the flames of all the nonsense.

That said, there has been enough time that I feel the Russian collusion is bunk. Mueller is a smart guy. Trump is a buffoon. I really do think that if there was 'collusion' (how is that illegal anyway?) that Mueller would have gone forward with... something.

Now. The reason I think they're going after his taxes is probably because in the 80s it was alleged that Trump laundered money for organized crime. I wouldn't be surprised if they bring forth articles of impeachment because of that. We'll have to wait and see.

I also agree that there are two types of people right now. People who have made up their mind about him being guilty simply because they dislike him; and people who think he is the second coming of Christ. I don't think he's either.

I don't have love or hate for him. I'm judging him based on his actions as President. To me, he hasn't done a great job (I still think he's better than Hillary). The trade deals and the isolationist policies he's pushing are going to do our country far more harm than good. I also think his travel bans are silly as well.

Nuance.

One other thing. If there is ever factual evidence of his committing a crime I will be the first in line to watch him burn. The problem is, right now, all we have is supposition disguised as fact. We have an almost 4 year old investigation that hasn't shown anything other than... what? Tax fraud? That's not collusion. Mueller doesn't even get that this entire fiasco is just making him look ineffectual.

Oh, and I'm all for the continued investigation. Keep it going for his entire presidency. If they're able to find anything then he should be punished. I just don't think they will ever find anything. They haven't yet and it's been years.

People love to claim Trump is an idiot. I tend to agree. An idiot can't outsmart the FBI. I just don't see how that's possible.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by BartAllen

The problem is there are actual things he's done that they can go after him for. But they focus on his taxes (a rich guy cheating his taxes? Shock) and then they're trying to go after him for this nonsense Russian collusion. They can't even explain how that's illegal. So what if he colluded with Russia to besmirch Hillary Clinton. It's not like the United States has never colluded with a foreign power to influence their elections. Hell, Obozzo made a commercial promoting Macron. That's collusion.

Still doesn't make it okay. Agree with Voltron about living in separate realities, because if a Dem president was found to have done it for their own advantage and won, all the self proclaimed uber-patriotic types would be screaming about it, and rightly so. To defend or shrug off Russia or any foreign entity for screwing with our elections (whether it truly happened or not aside), or any candidate doing it for their own advantage, is incredibly unpatriotic. Sickeningly so. (And shrugging off cheating on taxes is little better.)

[Autbot_Benz]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

Maybe if the cure to cancer is eating a obscene amount of junk food

anyway, no one learned from the last political thread?

If Mueller doesn't get him a Heart Attack from the Copious amounts of Mcdonalds and Wendy's will

[BartAllen]

Originally Posted by Autbot_Benz

If Mueller doesn't get him a Heart Attack from the Copious amounts of Mcdonalds and Wendy's will

I have a suspicion that there will never been any real findings from the Mueller investigation. And as soon as Trump is out of office, the Mueller investigation will quietly be swept under the rug.

It's much like the idiotic Carl Rove investigation. Nothing came from that either once Clinton was out of office. That investigation was a means to paint Clinton (and democrats) in a bad light, and helped put Bush in office. It's theatrics.

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Still doesn't make it okay. Agree with Voltron about living in separate realities, because if a Dem president was found to have done it for their own advantage and won, all the self proclaimed uber-patriotic types would be screaming about it, and rightly so. To defend or shrug off Russia or any foreign entity for screwing with our elections (whether it truly happened or not aside), or any candidate doing it for their own advantage, is incredibly unpatriotic. Sickeningly so. (And shrugging off cheating on taxes is little better.)

I should have been more clear. I don't mean cheat in the sense that he committed tax fraud. I mean he used the available tax codes to probably pay very little taxes. ALL rich people do this.

I shrug off the 'meddling' because buying ads on social media isn't really meddling (despite what the msm will have you believe). The CEO of google stated that Russia only spent 4700 dollars on Google ads. That's nothing. They probably spent about the same on Facebook and twitter.

The selective outrage is odd. We meddle with EVERY OTHER NATION on this planet. The things we've done in the middle east is disgusting. It's okay for us to meddle? Every country attempts to do this with every other country. Shrugging off this stuff is easy because buying ads on social media isn't this grand conspiracy. It's just another country buying ads on social media. Did you know that some of those ads also put Donald Trump down? It was not nearly this HUGE conspiracy that some of our congress people are trying to make it out to be.

Finally, there is no proof of collusion. No matter what anyone here or anywhere says. There is no proof. People like to claim Manafort's work for the Ukraine is somehow meddling. No. What he did was commit tax evasion. That's the issue. The worst part is other politicians have done similar stuff and they've just had to pay a fine. The way they're going after Manafort is odd.

The second there is credible, verifiable evidence of 'collusion' (again, what does that mean - how is it illegal?) then my attitude will change.

I won't even go into how corporations meddle in our elections. They do. Where is the outrage there? We're mad at a paper tiger like Russia, but we're not mad at Citigroup? Again, the selective outrage is odd.

For all the alleged evidence claiming Russia was colluding with Trump there is far, FAR more that never gets reported that they weren't.
https://mobile.reuters.com/video/201...Channel=118261

It's right there. 4700 dollars.

Oh, and did you know that the CIA can manipulate their own hacking and make it look like it was someone else that did it? Have you ever heard of Vault7? This isn't as cut and dry as the MSM wants to make it out to be.

I don't want to think that this entire investigation has been a creation of the DNC with the support of the intelligence committee, but I think it could POTENTIALLY.

So yea, I can shrug a lot of this stuff off. I can because there is literally nothing there yet. The second we have some true evidence my mind will change. I doubt we will ever see anything, though.

Like I wrote in my earlier post. There might have been some money laundering going on. I wouldn't doubt that. But collusion? No. I don't think there will ever be evidence of that.

Hey, and seriously, Your response was okay, but I kind of answered all the problems you had with my thoughts in the previous post.

Uranium one took 3 years to investigate. It was then dismissed.
The Trump Russian collusion has been going on for 4 and all they've been able to show for it is some tax fraud and some tax fraud.

[Voltron]

There's already been several convictions in the investigation. Saying there's no proof is like insisting the Emperor's new clothes look fabulous. How many people have to plead guilty to meeting with Russian agents before you change your mind?

Also, collusion, by definition, is illegal. It's conspiracy. It's like calling someone an unmarried bachelor. It's a bit redundant. Insisting something that's definition contains the word "illegal" is like saying you didn't murder your wife, you merely shoved a knife into her a few dozen times until she stopped breathing.

In addition, this isn't just about collusion, there's a slew of investigations happening, and not all of them are by the Democrats. Nor is the Mueller investigation, as the FBI doesn't have a political affiliation. Even if it did, the FBI tends to fault conservative. Robert Mueller III is a Republican. Saying this is a witch hunt is patently wrong.

On top of that, we're not just talking about Trump. He's just in caught up in a lot of these.

For example, other than Russia, we have to look at Saudi influence. There's also a lot of accusations AND convictions of perjury. There's accusations and convictions of misuse of campaign finances.

In short: the investigations into Trump and his associates are valid and turning up plenty of incriminating data.

The ONLY way this isn't true is if a cabal of world powers, including government officials and industry magnates, are colluding solely against Donald Trump in order to bring him down.

And if you want to ask why it's ok that other people have done this and gotten away with it, the answer is simple: It's not ok. It never was, and it isn't now.

[BartAllen]

Originally Posted by Voltron

There's already been several convictions in the investigation. Saying there's no proof is like insisting the Emperor's new clothes look fabulous. How many people have to plead guilty to meeting with Russian agents before you change your mind?

Also, collusion, by definition, is illegal. It's conspiracy. It's like calling someone an unmarried bachelor. It's a bit redundant. Insisting something that's definition contains the word "illegal" is like saying you didn't murder your wife, you merely shoved a knife into her a few dozen times until she stopped breathing.

In addition, this isn't just about collusion, there's a slew of investigations happening, and not all of them are by the Democrats. Nor is the Mueller investigation, as the FBI doesn't have a political affiliation. Even if it did, the FBI tends to fault conservative. Robert Mueller III is a Republican. Saying this is a witch hunt is patently wrong.

On top of that, we're not just talking about Trump. He's just in caught up in a lot of these.

For example, other than Russia, we have to look at Saudi influence. There's also a lot of accusations AND convictions of perjury. There's accusations and convictions of misuse of campaign finances.

In short: the investigations into Trump and his associates are valid and turning up plenty of incriminating data.

The ONLY way this isn't true is if a cabal of world powers, including government officials and industry magnates, are colluding solely against Donald Trump in order to bring him down.

And if you want to ask why it's ok that other people have done this and gotten away with it, the answer is simple: It's not ok. It never was, and it isn't now.

Again. Manafort was never charged with any type of collusion. They got him for not disclosing his earned income. Tax evasion. It wasn't that he was working in the Ukraine that got him in a hot mess it's that he didn't disclose income. That's not collusion. No matter how you slice it. Cohen had similar issues with his taxes, and I think (I might be wrong) something to do with campaign contributions.

Why wouldn't a worldwide cabal of oligarchs combine their powers to take down a president that is harming them with bad protectionist policies and tariffs that also harm them? It makes a lot of sense.

Mueller will never charge Trump with collusion. There is no evidence of it. Even the NYTs has written as much.

And if collusion is illegal than a lot of people that are currently in power would have to be brought down.

Mueller is an establishment republican and that's a completely different animal than Trump.

Also. I know you don't like me to bring in previous presidents as an example, but Obama alsi misused campaign finances. He was fined and the matter was dismissed. Again. Hillary also did some shady stuff with her finances during her bid for the presidency.

So in a sense you're right. People around Trump have done bad things that have gotten them (rightfully) in trouble. That still doesn't mean that Trump has colluded with the Russians, or that he is a Russian agent. That said, if there is strong evidence showing that he was into the.. hinky stuff, then I will be the first to admit I am wrong. I just don't think there will ever been evidence of collusion.

Here's a pretty good article from Politico about the entire situation: https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...indings-914754

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Voltron

This isn't exactly a free exchange of ideas. It's more just a round table of "cucking libtards".

As much as Trump could cure cancer and still be considered a villain by some, he could literally CAUSE cancer and still be adored by others.

It's weird. I feel like we live in different dimensions. We're convinced of two completely separate realities. The only similarities being that Donald Trump is the POTUS.

Weird.

Trump Derangement Syndrome™ (TDS).

[BartAllen]

Here's a good link talking about the lack of true evidence when it comes to the Trump investigation.

https://youtu.be/vLkIlZizLdc

This is from the Jimmy Dore show. Jimmy is a social progressive that hates Trump. Even he says that there is no collusion and all the charges being brought against people around Trump haven't really had anything to do with collusion so much as it has been people not disclosing their earned income to the fed.


And I hate to say it, but if you want to thank anyone for Trump... well, You might want to send Hillary Clinton a thank you note:
https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...d-trump-214428

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015...ntial-run-2016

Hillary knew she wasn't a well liked candidate. She propped Trump up thinking he was the only person she could win against.

And there is no line between establishment Republicans and Democrats, they're both stooges for corporations. I may not be a big fan of Ocasio-Cortez, but she made some interesting observations during her orientation to congress:
https://truthout.org/articles/newly-...e-orientation/

[IndigoErth]

Eh... the problem there is he's not actually involved in the investigations, is he... Thus he probably has access to no more info on it than anyone else out here outside of the investigations or our government, neither commentator, news anchor, or viewer alike.

It's a little presumptuous for a political commentator on any side of the matter to assume so much when we have been told so little.

As far as Hillary goes... Her decisions were her own, if she hurt her own campaign in some ways, that's on her. I don't dislike her, but can't say I've ever been much more than indifferent. I respect that she's a tough lady, but other than that... meh. Voting is too often now between a rock and a hard place. Or a head full of rocks and a stupid place.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Trump Derangement Syndrome™ (TDS).

Trump Cult Syndrome™ (TCS)

[BartAllen]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Eh... the problem there is he's not actually involved in the investigations, is he... Thus he probably has access to no more info on it than anyone else out here outside of the investigations or our government, neither commentator, news anchor, or viewer alike.

It's a little presumptuous for a political commentator on any side of the matter to assume so much when we have been told so little.

That's fair. We may never know the entire situation when it comes to the investigation. But like I wrote in an earlier post, if there was collusion I think they would have come forward with something at this point.

Investigative reporters have their ear to the ground - they have an idea of what's going on. Plus, leaks aplenty would be happening right now if there was something there.

[Voltron]

Never is a long time. And while it may not come to pass, this isn't a small matter to be so dismissed.

It's not like the assistant manager at the local Office Max was implicated in this. It's an accusation leveled directly at the President of the United States of America.

And there are a lot of accusations.

As far as "hurting" foreign interests, Trump really isn't. The current political turmoil in the US is giving China a huge leg up.

While we're sitting here bickering over a noted con-man, China has been sending ambassadors all over the world. They're been setting up a lot of infrastructure in Africa, which offers a lot of untapped resources and potential.

Russia managed to get unwanted US forces out of Syria.

Trump's driven a wedge between the US and our NATO allies, which is another huge win for Putin.

The tariffs Trump's placed on "other countries" is a tax on our business, forcing some to shut down.

Farms are hurting so bad from the tariffs that the government now has to subsidize some to keep them afloat. Ford has also reported layoffs. Tariffs are hurting America, not China.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1NW2N2

More coal mines are shutting down, which is really bad for rural America.
http://fortune.com/2018/10/09/ford-s...trade-tariffs/

The Wall, if built, will require the Federal government to invoke eminent domain, forcing a lot of people to give up their land.

We still have a lot of vital political offices and appointments unfilled.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.c55493a96036

Trump can't even say Nazis are bad or condemn Turkish agents who assaulted American citizens.

Hell, the guy brags about buying fast food for the champion college football team.


Blaming this on Hillary is moot. No one likes her to begin with, even Democrats. She had what should have been the easiest election cycle in recent history and still managed to botch the damn thing.

Aside from that, there's little question as to whether she would've been a better president. Would she have been popular? No. Would she have given us more of the same? Yes. Is that good? No. But it's better than what we have now, which is a disgrace.

Obama misusing funds and being punished for it would be a good example, but that's an already completed event. On top of that, it was because of misfiled paperwork. The campaign was a few days late on reporting donations, and botched the dates on some paperwork. Obama wasn't funneling campaign money to himself.

If you want a better parallel, use Bill Clinton's perjury. That's what Trump's associates have been convicted of. The other investigations are, at the moment, just that. Trump is innocent until proven guilty. But he's a suspect with an unbelievable amount of power in the United States.

Remember when James Comey said he was reopening the Benghazi investigation, and people said Hillary can't be elected because she's now under investigation by the FBI? That was a good point. And here we are now with Trump.

Sure, we can point to every coup the USA was complicit in. The political meddling we've committed could fill books. The fact that it's illegal doesn't change. The fact that people in those countries are unhappy about it doesn't change. The people of those countries are always free to fight back. It's terrible, yes. I don't like it.

So when it happens to us, we're allowed to call it illegal. And we're allowed to fight against it.

We're never going to get a perfect system. Pointing out hypocrisy can be helpful in guiding future behavior, but using it to bar current counters to a serious issue isn't productive at all.

We, as a country, have to own this one. We made a terrible choice in voting this guy in. And while we can argue all day about who did what in the political field, the point we need to hammer home is: this is affecting us NOW.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Voltron

Trump can't even say Nazis are bad or condemn Turkish agents who assaulted American citizens.

He can do that, but doing so is humoring nonsense. Like, if he does that and opens that can of crazy worms... he's going to have to keep on doing that. Sort of like the "Are you a Russian agent?" nonsense. "ZOMG! He didn't say no!!! Proof positive! Smoking gun/tightening noose! ZOMG! ZOMG!!!"

Hell, the guy brags about buying fast food for the champion college football team.

Who cares?

If you want a better parallel, use Bill Clinton's perjury. That's what Trump's associates have been convicted of.

None of Trump's associates, no. But we can play make believe if you want.

The other investigations are, at the moment, just that. Trump is innocent until proven guilty. But he's a suspect with an unbelievable amount of power in the United States.

No he's not. Where are the charges? Even one?

We, as a country, have to own this one. We made a terrible choice in voting this guy in. And while we can argue all day about who did what in the political field, the point we need to hammer home is: this is affecting us NOW.

Yep, it sure is. Lowest unemployment in history. Booming economy. Trade deals that are finally taking a look at what's fair. A hard stance on an out of control illegal immigration.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by Voltron

We, as a country, have to own this one. We made a terrible choice in voting this guy in. And while we can argue all day about who did what in the political field, the point we need to hammer home is: this is affecting us NOW.

So, you can argue, but you will never admit arguments of the other side, if they don't align with yours.

Enjoy Trump 2020, I guess. People like you have deserved it.
And the best thing yet - it will be YOUR own doing.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE=Andrew NDB;1789690]He can do that, but doing so is humoring nonsense. Like, if he does that and opens that can of crazy worms... he's going to have to keep on doing that. Sort of like the "Are you a Russian agent?" nonsense. "ZOMG! He didn't say no!!! Proof positive! Smoking gun/tightening noose! ZOMG! ZOMG!!!"

Who cares?

I do. I'd rather not have our country be a laughing stock. Have some class.

None of Trump's associates, no. But we can play make believe if you want.

Cohen. Flynn. Manafort.

No he's not. Where are the charges? Even one?

That's not how suspicion works. Being under investigation and charged are two different things.

Yep, it sure is. Lowest unemployment in history. Booming economy. Trade deals that are finally taking a look at what's fair. A hard stance on an out of control illegal immigration.

National debt of 2 trillion dollars. Record coal mines closed. Farmers on the dole. Army not getting paid. Lines out the door at airports. National Parks closed.

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by Sumac

So, you can argue, but you will never admit arguments of the other side, if they don't align with yours.

Enjoy Trump 2020, I guess. People like you have deserved it.
And the best thing yet - it will be YOUR own doing.

yep. these people don't realize their positive negativity is what gets the job done.

they create their own worst nightmare

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by Sumac

So, you can argue, but you will never admit arguments of the other side, if they don't align with yours.

Yeah. That's kind of how an argument works.

[Leo656]

I make a lot more money whenever the President is a Republican. The same was true of my father before me. Obviously things go deeper than that, but at the same time, I'll concede that the pattern is impossible to ignore, and therefore root for what works best for me. My job depends on people having lots of expendable income, after all.

I make zero pretense about the state of the larger "world". I'm gonna be dead in a few decades, after that the sun can implode for all I care. Long as I'm alright, we good. And I'm pretty alright right now.

Yes, that's selfish, self-absorbed, "mean" and a lot of other things. I care more about my bottom line than others' opinions of me, or what's happening "Over There", what can I say. Anything that isn't making my life more difficult in the Here and Now, is nothing more than entertainment, as far as I'm concerned. And again, I'm currently doing better than I have in ten years or so.

If my checks keep getting bigger, I may have to start arguing against term limits so this guy gets to stay President forever. Treats me fine. I'd never vote for him but the current climate is in my favor, and that's nothing I'm in any hurry to mess with.

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I make a lot more money whenever the President is a Republican. The same was true of my father before me. Obviously things go deeper than that, but at the same time, I'll concede that the pattern is impossible to ignore, and therefore root for what works best for me. My job depends on people having lots of expendable income, after all.

I make zero pretense about the state of the larger "world". I'm gonna be dead in a few decades, after that the sun can implode for all I care. Long as I'm alright, we good. And I'm pretty alright right now.

Yes, that's selfish, self-absorbed, "mean" and a lot of other things. I care more about my bottom line than others' opinions of me, or what's happening "Over There", what can I say. Anything that isn't making my life more difficult in the Here and Now, is nothing more than entertainment, as far as I'm concerned. And again, I'm currently doing better than I have in ten years or so.

If my checks keep getting bigger, I may have to start arguing against term limits so this guy gets to stay President forever. Treats me fine. I'd never vote for him but the current climate is in my favor, and that's nothing I'm in any hurry to mess with.

I can't imagine that lasting long. Any bump in finances people get from rolled back regulations tends to be very temporary. The financial crisis in 2008 is a good example of people not knowing how to handle their money properly, spending way more than they should've, and then regretting it.

Planning for the future is essential. Things may be good *now*, but sooner or later the economy is going to have a set back.

[Leo656]

True enough. Can't last, never does. But I'll certainly be looking on the bright side in the meantime.

Less heartburn that way.