Do you prefer the Foot to be diverse or just be mostly Japanese

[Andrew NDB]

Barring extreme exceptions, no, I don't think ancient Japanese ninja clans would be very... indiscriminate or secular.

Japanese and Japanese Americans who are vouched for by "old family." Nobody else.

[CyberCubed]

Only Asians are really good at martial arts, especially in a deadly clan, so it should only be Japanese.

[Andrew NDB]

It's not about ability, it's about people they can absolutely trust, absolutely. "Old school Japanese" don't really do that with any gaijin... like, at all. And we know The Foot is an ancient Japanese clan because we've literally seen its formation in Feudal Japan. You don't see any random dudes in the Yakuza.

It's when we get into stuff like (versions of) the Foot having, like, open recruitment for random white dudes off the streets of New York, or things like having Karai or Saki openly employing characters like Bebop and Rocksteady in their ranks that I lose any ability to take it seriously.

I mean, think about it. If you're Oroku Saki, who are you going to trust? Are you going to trust Jason Anderson, who you trained for a couple weeks and is now one of your Foot Soldiers, isn't going to rat out your whole criminal organization the first time he gets caught by the police (or worse, go in with a wire and bust you directly)? Are you going to trust Kenshin Hayabusa, whose grandfather in Japan vouches for him, whose whole family you know and trust from the old country, is probably going to slit his own wrists before doing that?

It'd be the latter. It would always be the latter. It would never be the former.

[PApagreg]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Barring extreme exceptions, no, I don't think ancient Japanese ninja clans would be very... indiscriminate or secular.

Japanese and Japanese Americans who are vouched for by "old family." Nobody else.

1. Like Panda and I said ninja clans weren't really picky in fact most of them comprised of peasants, farmers, orphans or just people from the lower caste of society. Also Ninjas were very pragmatic so they would't really care what skin color or nationality someone was as long as they bring results

2.If you were trying to gain intelligence in say an eastern European country it would make more sense to send in someone who can blend into a background which you can't really do if you see in a full bloodied Japanese.

3. Most of the time the Foot are used as cannon fodder so there is only so many of Japanese or Japanese Americans who are vouched by "old family".

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

It's not about ability, it's about people they can absolutely trust, absolutely. "Old school Japanese" don't really do that with any gaijin... like, at all. And we know The Foot is an ancient Japanese clan because we've literally seen its formation in Feudal Japan.

It's when we get into stuff like (versions of) the Foot having, like, open recruitment for random white dudes off the streets of New York, or things like having Karai or Saki openly employing characters like Bebop and Rocksteady in their ranks that I lose any ability to take it seriously.

Again ninja clans didn't care for Japanese tradition also just because the Foot was formed in ancient Japan it doesn't mean they can't adapt to modern times.

[CyberCubed]

In the Mirage comics in Tales they did show "white" New Yorkers being recruited to become Foot. The same thing happens in the first two movies, where Keno goes undercover to join the Foot Clan, and Casey did the same thing in the first movies. In 4kids/Nick it was also pretty much stated Purple Dragons or other street punks in New York were recruited to become Foot Soldiers eventually.

I mean if you have a NY branch of the Foot, logically you wouldn't expect them to all be Japanese. It's easier to infiltrate businesses and to do drug/weapons trading with native New Yorkers who know the area than some foreign Japanese.

[Prowler]

I've never thought about it, but I guess I don't care. I mean, with Shredder living in NYC and all it's hard to amass a huge army of foot soldiers with just Japanese nationals. Plus, he often forms alliances or cooperates with other underworld groups. Hun was one of his most trustworthy men in the 2k3 series, for example.

And it's not like you really know what 99.9% of the foot look like behind their masks, anyway.

[Spike Spiegel]

The idea that a fictional clan of ninjas has to be discriminatory in a historically/culturally realistic manner in a world where we are also asked to believe in aliens, sentient robots, and talking animals that teach each other martial arts through books and muscle memory is kind of...funny, to say the least.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

Multi-ethnic makes the most sense outside of japan. People forget ninja clans are simply martial arts based mercenary guilds; concepts like honor and national pride and negative attitudes towards 'gajin' mean NOTHING to them. Profits and successful missions are all that matter, so they would recruit anyone who had the skills or potential to be good ninja. And limiting themselves to Japanese-only recruits outside of japan seriously limits the talent pool they can draw from.

Also, ninja clans were outcasts in Japanese society. Why would a group of social outcasts embrace the traditions and prejudices that made them outcasts? The only traditions they would embrace would be personal clan traditions.

I could swear in the first Mirage issue, one of the foot ninja calls Raphael a "gaijin" in a derrogatory sense. I doubt that's gonna offend a mutant turtle, though

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

It's not about ability, it's about people they can absolutely trust, absolutely. "Old school Japanese" don't really do that with any gaijin... like, at all. And we know The Foot is an ancient Japanese clan because we've literally seen its formation in Feudal Japan. You don't see any random dudes in the Yakuza.

It's when we get into stuff like (versions of) the Foot having, like, open recruitment for random white dudes off the streets of New York, or things like having Karai or Saki openly employing characters like Bebop and Rocksteady in their ranks that I lose any ability to take it seriously.

I mean, think about it. If you're Oroku Saki, who are you going to trust? Are you going to trust Jason Anderson, who you trained for a couple weeks and is now one of your Foot Soldiers, isn't going to rat out your whole criminal organization the first time he gets caught by the police (or worse, go in with a wire and bust you directly)? Are you going to trust Kenshin Hayabusa, whose grandfather in Japan vouches for him, whose whole family you know and trust from the old country, is probably going to slit his own wrists before doing that?

It'd be the latter. It would always be the latter. It would never be the former.

Actually, the Yakuza has a lot of people of Korean and Chinese ancestry, I think. Japanese of Korean ancestry have historically suffered discrimination in Japan, so I guess some joined the Yakuza and other gangs seeing no choice other than a life in crime.

But I guess the foot could have non-Japanese people in it but only in the lower ranks. The higher ranks would be exclusive to Japanese people.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

In the Mirage comics in Tales they did show "white" New Yorkers being recruited to become Foot. The same thing happens in the first two movies, where Keno goes undercover to join the Foot Clan, and Casey did the same thing in the first movies. In 4kids/Nick it was also pretty much stated Purple Dragons or other street punks in New York were recruited to become Foot Soldiers eventually.

I mean if you have a NY branch of the Foot, logically you wouldn't expect them to all be Japanese. It's easier to infiltrate businesses and to do drug/weapons trading with native New Yorkers who know the area than some foreign Japanese.

Yeah, good points.

Originally Posted by Spike Spiegel

The idea that a fictional clan of ninjas has to be discriminatory in a historically/culturally realistic manner in a world where we are also asked to believe in aliens, sentient robots, and talking animals that teach each other martial arts through books and muscle memory is kind of...funny, to say the least.

I don't think racism has ever been a thing in TMNT. The only thing close to it is hatred for mutants. But if you're gonna write stories for mature audiences and such I don't see why racism or xenophobia couldn't be a thing to touch upon.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Spike Spiegel

The idea that a fictional clan of ninjas has to be discriminatory in a historically/culturally realistic manner in a world where we are also asked to believe in aliens, sentient robots, and talking animals that teach each other martial arts through books and muscle memory is kind of...funny, to say the least.

This sounds awfully close to Crisler's Law to me...

[Utrommaniac]

I think of it as "depends on which sector".

Of course in Japan, they're going to be more Japanese on account of the population being so homogeneous.

But, in an area like New York, it's probably going to be a lot harder to find people with Japanese ancestry (which is part of why I think a Los Angeles-centered alternate universe would be pretty interesting) - and a lot easier to find "White Nerds" who would jump at the chance to join a ninja clan - even if they mostly end up cannon fodder, and the dozens of street gangs that would probably agree to being part of something bigger and more powerful than them.


It makes sense that they'd be diverse out of necessity, rather than the "just because" factor.

[plastroncafe]

Ninjas blend.
There are certainly benefits to having folks in your organization that can blend into a variety of situations and locations. With that in mind, I'm not particularly bothered by The Foot recruiting folks from a variety of backgrounds.

From a writing perspective, if the Foot Clan was going to be ethnically homogeneous, then I'd be sure to add some other characters of that ethnicity who aren't bad guys.

Otherwise you get Season II Daredevil, and...we deserve better than that.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Otherwise you get Season II Daredevil, and...we deserve better than that.

I don't buy into this mentality at all. It isn't the writers' duty to balance all races equally and fairly in terms of good guys and bad guys in... everything. Sometimes an evil Japanese ninja clan is just an evil Japanese ninja clan.

Could they have included "Ryu, the helpful supporting Japanese character" that season to counterbalance the evil Japanese ninja clan? Sure. But they didn't, and who cares.

[PApagreg]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I mean, think about it. If you're Oroku Saki, who are you going to trust? Are you going to trust Jason Anderson, who you trained for a couple weeks and is now one of your Foot Soldiers, isn't going to rat out your whole criminal organization the first time he gets caught by the police (or worse, go in with a wire and bust you directly)? Are you going to trust Kenshin Hayabusa, whose grandfather in Japan vouches for him, whose whole family you know and trust from the old country, is probably going to slit his own wrists before doing that?

It'd be the latter. It would always be the latter. It would never be the former.

The problem with that is that while Kenshin Hayabusa is more trustworthy there aren't a lot of people like him, also if Kenshin dies you are going to have a hard time finding someone with his credentials. Meanwhile there are thousands of Jason Anderson and Akira Watanabe and the former is better at infiltrating the rival biker gang from Alabama or the Crips/Bloods in LA.

Originally Posted by Prowler

But I guess the foot could have non-Japanese people in it but only in the lower ranks. The higher ranks would be exclusive to Japanese people.

I personally think that would't work, it would be very hard to have a Japanese person representing the "France" branch or the "Dubai" branch also I doubt the non-Japanese Foot would be happy that the higher up positions would only be open to people of Japanese blood.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by PApagreg

The problem with that is that while Kenshin Hayabusa is more trustworthy there aren't a lot of people like him, also if Kenshin dies you are going to have a hard time finding someone with his credentials. Meanwhile there are thousands of Jason Anderson and Akira Watanabe and the former is better at infiltrating the rival biker gang from Alabama or the Crips/Bloods in LA.



I personally think that would't work, it would be very hard to have a Japanese person representing the "France" branch or the "Dubai" branch also I doubt the non-Japanese Foot would be happy that the higher up positions would only be open to people of Japanese blood.

France and Dubai? The foot now have branches in those places? Are they becoming a major corporation nowadays? Damn. Back in my day they were only present in Japan and USA(New York City only afaik).

Well the upper ranks would be... Shredder and Karai basically. Doubt most of the foot clan members, Japanese or not, would want to rule it and become the next Shredder. So I doubt there'd be much tension among them.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

First off, the idea of the modern
Foot clan being around is ridiculous, no ninja clan survived the meji restoration, period. Second, the whole don't trust gaijin this is historically B.S... Japanese clan employed, befriended, and trusted gajin, and even adopted them into thier clans throughout Japanese history. "Honor"in Japan and the surrounding countries wasn't really about what you did and how you acted, it was how people thought you acted. You adopt bob the samurai into your clan? Perfectly fine, as long as you hide it from the other clans. Avenging cousin Ryus death? You hated cousin ryu, but you make the effort to make the appearance of trying to avenge him. In Japan, clan honor was never about duty and obligations, it was about the appearance of duty and obligation, "saving face". So the foot eould, at best, only pay lip Service to "dont trust gaijin"

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by PApagreg

The problem with that is that while Kenshin Hayabusa is more trustworthy there aren't a lot of people like him, also if Kenshin dies you are going to have a hard time finding someone with his credentials. Meanwhile there are thousands of Jason Anderson and Akira Watanabe and the former is better at infiltrating the rival biker gang from Alabama or the Crips/Bloods in LA.

Why would a Japanese ninja gang have any interest in infiltrating biker gangs or Crips/Bloods? Biker gangs are pretty threadbare, and Bloods and Crips are way, way beneath them. Do you think Oroku Saki cares one iota about the 13 Sureños or 74 Hoova Crips? They will kill you, sure, but their trade is crack cocaine, meth, bullets, and baggy pants. They'd be far more apt to eliminate them and assume their clientele, if anything, before they'd remotely consider "infiltrating them." What would that even accomplish?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Widening their sphere of influence by absorbing their clients directly? Just a guess.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

First off, the idea of the modern
Foot clan being around is ridiculous, no ninja clan survived the meji restoration, period. Second, the whole don't trust gaijin this is historically B.S... Japanese clan employed, befriended, and trusted gajin, and even adopted them into thier clans throughout Japanese history. "Honor"in Japan and the surrounding countries wasn't really about what you did and how you acted, it was how people thought you acted. You adopt bob the samurai into your clan? Perfectly fine, as long as you hide it from the other clans. Avenging cousin Ryus death? You hated cousin ryu, but you make the effort to make the appearance of trying to avenge him. In Japan, clan honor was never about duty and obligations, it was about the appearance of duty and obligation, "saving face". So the foot eould, at best, only pay lip Service to "dont trust gaijin"

Yeah. Just like it would not make sense for the modern foot clan to rely on swords and such only. In the 2k3 series, Shredder's tower was obviously well equipped with modern technology. Granted he was an alien in that series, but still. Sci-fi is a big part of the TMNT property, so I have no issues with modern and future technology mixing with ancient ninja clans to some degree.

Things are never black and white. Even if a clan on principle would be against gaijins joining, they'd always make an exception to the rule or two if they felt they really needed to. Making some connections with local New Yorkers only seems wise to me.

In the Sopranos I think Tony didn't like black people much, but yet he had some black business associates, for example.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Widening their sphere of influence by absorbing their clients directly? Just a guess.

You really think the Foot would have any interest in "absorbing" these guys?



Or these guys?

[PApagreg]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Why would a Japanese ninja gang have any interest in infiltrating biker gangs or Crips/Bloods? Biker gangs are pretty threadbare, and Bloods and Crips are way, way beneath them. Do you think Oroku Saki cares one iota about the 13 Sureños or 74 Hoova Crips? They will kill you, sure, but their trade is crack cocaine, meth, bullets, and baggy pants. They'd be far more apt to eliminate them and assume their clientele, if anything, before they'd remotely consider "infiltrating them." What would that even accomplish?

You do know that there is more to ninjas than direct combat right in fact combat is pretty much a last resort when it comes to ninjas. Their biggest trade is spying, espionage, sabotage, and infiltration. Their goal is low risk and high reward, for example why go out and start a gang war with Blood/Cripes and the Hells Angels when you can just send the leaders the heads of their top enforcers/dealers and in order to know said top enforcers you might need to send in a spy to gather intel. Another thing is that Shredder can't kill every single member because whether he like it or not the old pushers know the areas and the people who live in them a lot better than he does so he probably needs to keep a few of them alive and still needs a spy to make sure none of them are planning on either betraying him or bamboozle him off of the profits.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

You really think the Foot would have any interest in "absorbing" these guys?

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media...t3yxnjxjpg.jpg

Or these guys?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/SeDpjGKUvVQ/hqdefault.jpg

I mean in most incarnations the Foot absorbs The Purple Dragon so why not them.