Is it actually an improvement for Splinter to start out as Hamato Yoshi?

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

He was never supposed to be a normal rat. Peter just says he... forgot what the plan there was.

Well, that first issue reads excellently and the origin is great. I just think a revision makes more sense.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Never a normal rat? Then what was he? An escapee from the NIMH experiments? (I am currently working on a short story using exactly that concept, as it happens....)

Well, like I said, "postscripts" don't count.

I can totally believe that Laird had it on a notepad somewhere that Splinter The Rat had some mysterious "Secret Origin" - Geoff Johns style - but they never executed that idea, so it's just hot air, now. Means nothing.

I DO generally defer to Word Of God BUT, again... they had a lot of years to make it Official Canon and they never bothered. SO. It couldn't have been THAT important.

You snooze you lose, f*ck-face!

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

Well, that first issue reads excellently and the origin is great. I just think a revision makes more sense.

A... clarification, for sure.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Well, like I said, "postscripts" don't count.

I can totally believe that Laird had it on a notepad somewhere that Splinter The Rat had some mysterious "Secret Origin" - Geoff Johns style - but they never executed that idea, so it's just hot air, now. Means nothing.

I DO generally defer to Word Of God BUT, again... they had a lot of years to make it Official Canon and they never bothered. SO. It couldn't have been THAT important.

You snooze you lose, f*ck-face!

Yeah, that was kind of what I was getting at. Nothing was ever mentioned in any version of the origin, so.....

[Leo656]

And they had FOR-EV-ER to try and fit it in somewhere.

That's why it's bullsh*t. Laird had 30+ issues over 8 years or so ALL to himself in Vol. 4 and he never once thought to himself, "Oh, wait, yeah... that Splinter thing"? Not to mention all those issues of Tales Vol. 2.

The fact that it never came up at all, ever, even when Laird had complete control over the story? COME ON, NIKKI!

I'm like Roddy Piper over here with it.
"So Pete, what was that Big Secret about Splinter The Rat you always tease us with?"
"Well, I..."
((Yanks the mic away)) "Didn't wanna know that bad!"

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Lol you're funny today! (And I got off work early, so I'm sitting here bored waiting for my check, for the record.)

[Leo656]

I'm funny every day! But moreso when I'm sleep-deprived and riding the ol' 4:20 Express if'n ya catch my meaning. So yeah this week's goin' swell.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Gotcha. Man I'm really dreading that walk in 92? Texas heat when I get my check. Bank, then Walmart, then home. Gonna be fun. (And I use the term loosely.)

Edit. It keeps putting the degree symbol in as a question mark. Weird.

[Leo656]

I keep seeing the ? thing and it's not happening for me yet, so that's weird.

Also, that sounds dreadful. I'd ask about a bike but Lord knows I've asked myself the same question so I know Sh*t Happens and I don't wanna pry.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I keep seeing the ? thing and it's not happening for me yet, so that's weird.

Also, that sounds dreadful. I'd ask about a bike but Lord knows I've asked myself the same question so I know Sh*t Happens and I don't wanna pry.

It's not happening to me either. I'm guessing it might be an issue with the operating system or browser? I'm using Windows 10 and Chrome, ifsomeone else also does and still experience the problem then it's caused by something else.

Anyway, back on topic. There certainly are ways you can fill the gaps and still have Splinter be a rat, such as reincarnation or lab experiments. I just don't think the inconsistancies caused by having the same incident turn a man into a rat and turtles into humanoids just aren't worth it if you can make your fictional horseshit rules more clear. If the mutagen just does whatever for no clear reason (like mutating a car or turning a man into goop), then it becomes kind of awkward to accept as a plot device. It's the reason people hated the new Force powers in the Disney trilogy, you don't want an element that's just a bag of tricks for what the writer wants at the moment.

Proposed rules:
Wanna turn animals into humanoids? Utrom Ooze.
Wanna turn human into animal men? Intentional genetic engineering.
Wanna make a fusion of man and trash?... Modified teleportation device???

The point is, if you want different results of a plot device, make different plot devices.

[IndigoErth]

I use the site with the last retired XP compatible version of Firefox and no issue. Could it be a glitch happening on the mobile end?

I assume it's a coincidence that it seems to hate both the apostrophe for some and/or the degree mark for others, both located in the same spot..?

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Rat bodies are built very differently from human ones, and even after mutating, he would have had a great deal of trouble learning to adapt his body structure to perform some moves.

Not to mention also teaching it to four Turtles whose own body plan he will never relate to and have to compensate in different ways than a rat and they'd have to figure that part out on their own.

edit: Like FW Splinter trying to teach Leo that serpent strike move or whatever it was (I think in the one where Leo is afraid of snakes) and it really just shouldn't be possible for the guy, given the whole back bending part.

[Andrew NDB]

Sidenote:

"Splinter in 2012 Nick TMNT is the best! Because it's Hamato and it's played semi-serious!"

Eh, yes. And as I've often said, that incarnation will always have a special place in my heart because it's the one that made my daughter and I kind of share something that we both enjoyed. It's not "TMNT" to me, but it's... "our TMNT" for an extended moment in time, if that makes sense.

That said, no. The mutagen in that series made it lose all credibility. It was bad enough that the Fred Wolf mutagen morphs you into whatever the last lifeform you touched (which makes no sense... what if you have a COVID virus on you at the same time you touch an ant... do you become COVID-Antman? or if an amoeba is around too? nonsense!) but now... you can fuse with a blade of grass? Or a walky-talky or something? Even worse!

[newfan]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Sidenote:

"Splinter in 2012 Nick TMNT is the best! Because it's Hamato and it's played semi-serious!"

Eh, yes. And as I've often said, that incarnation will always have a special place in my heart because it's the one that made my daughter and I kind of share something that we both enjoyed. It's not "TMNT" to me, but it's... "our TMNT" for an extended moment in time, if that makes sense.

That said, no. The mutagen in that series made it lose all credibility. It was bad enough that the Fred Wolf mutagen morphs you into whatever the last lifeform you touched (which makes no sense... what if you have a COVID virus on you at the same time you touch an ant... do you become COVID-Antman? or if an amoeba is around too? nonsense!) but now... you can fuse with a blade of grass? Or a walky-talky or something? Even worse!

Yeah if you can splice with non living things technically the concrete ground people are standing on when they splashed with mutagen would count.

[Dejablue]

I like both origins of Splinter being human original or rat always. But I guess one has to consider the implications of Splinter always being a rat, absorbing knowledge and human morality before his mutation and passing that mindset into his sons. So like...does this mean non mutated animals have sapience/self awareness?

The mutagen can't just give that to them can it? Like the concept of right and wrong isn't pre-loaded into the ooze. He had to learn that somehow. I know it's just a cartoon tho sooo I'm over thinking things.

I suppose doing it Secret of Nimh style would be the best work around to explain Splinter's pre-mutation intelligence. I wouldn't count reincarnation as it works in IDW, because there were supernatural forces involved, how did Splinter just know that those 4 turtles were his kids.

[Andrew NDB]

The mutagen in the Mirage and movies and 2K3 is the only one that makes any sort of sense. The only outlier anyone can point to is "Welllll! How did Splinter in his cage learn everything in his cage!" And that's fair. But Laird has been asked and answered multiple times on his Q&A that he DID have a story behind that. As in, that wasn't a normal rat. But he forgot where he was going with that.

We can talk in circles about "I really wish Hamato Yoshi is Splinter! Because that'd be best!" (and you know what, you might be right) but that's really the first discussion we need to have (about how the mutagen works and thus mutated Splinter). Because if that's bullsh**, then the bottom drops out. And we can't take it seriously.

[Dejablue]

Which is the more important discussion the mutagen or yoshi being splinter?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Dejablue

Which is the more important discussion the mutagen or yoshi being splinter?

I feel like the former needs to be settled before we can get into the latter. But it won't.

[Dejablue]

well I mean the mutagen works however the writer wants it for the most part but I figured the basic rules stayed the same?

I could see there being wiggle room without it feeling like BS if the writers add in a throw away line about some evil scientist making adjustments to the mutagen to create variations.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Dejablue

well I mean the mutagen works however the writer wants it for the most part but I figured the basic rules stayed the same?

What, between everything TMNT ever? Nonsense. The Mirage/movie/2k3 mutagen works way different than it does in everything else. There are no "basic rules" in those other things because they don't want any. Touch a "Walk" button on a crosswalk and you might become "Crosswalk Man" or some other nonsense.

Mirage/movie/2k3 at least make sense within themselves, say what you will about Splinter's origin (which I've spoken on). Either you believe whatever hits the ooze becomes hyper-evolved suddenly, or the Utrom factor somehow forcibly makes whatever it comes into contact with more humanoid and sentient.

Simple.

I could see there being wiggle room without it feeling like BS if the writers add in a throw away line about some evil scientist making adjustments to the mutagen to create variations.

I'd rather it not be convoluted like that. Though I do like that Eastman & Laird made it a little bit vague, while still holding water. No other incarnation did that (beyond the movies/2k3).

[Dejablue]

well now I feel like I need a chart of how the mutagen is treated in all the different versions of tmnt.