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Old 02-15-2020, 11:22 AM   #21
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Let women who want to direct come about it organically. if they're good, they'll get more work. But most women simply aren't inclined to pursue this.
But why do that when you can demand change. Who wants to work for it and show you're capable of delivering a good film (without being overly feminist) when you can just stomp your feet and say that nearly all directors are male.
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Old 02-16-2020, 12:19 AM   #22
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It's not 1890. And not even 1920.
There are plenty of opportunities to women to go into profession of a movie director. It's just that women apparently are not going into this profession. And no, giving Oscars for just having vagina, won't make more women go into profession. The same thing about various hi-tech professions.

Also saying that "there is a pressure on women to not to go into professions" doesn't explain anything. A lot of people face pressure going into various fields and somehow they manage to get into them and make names for themselves.

I am not denying that there is a some amount of sexism at play, but saying that awards will somehow fix it, is complete misunderstanding of a problem.
Granted. And the point about Portman's use of male directors drives the argument home.

I do want to clarify the argument being made, though. Misconstruing it only leads to pointless arguments and bashing.

Also, I wouldn't know how clear and open the path to being a big name director is for anyone, let alone women. There's a story that goes around about James Cameron quitting his job as a trucker to pursue a career as a director.

I'm sure there's plenty of aspiring female directors out there. I'd suspect there is an issue with sexism, except that it comes in the form of movies women "can direct" vs. movies "that make money".

For example, action films are pretty popular everywhere. Action doesn't need much translation, if you catch my meaning. A dubbed kung fu flick will be just as entertaining as a lot of the Michael Bay-ish stuff that is churned out. And for those types of films, I'd imagine a studio would hand it off to a guy. Guys are "macho" and "aggressive" and "make those types of films".

I found a list of action films directed by women.It was unimpressive, and one is in contention because the Wachowski sisters were brothers when they made The Matrix.

Contrast these with comedies, which don't translate well at all. In Japan, they use the phrase "American joke" to describe a joke no one understands or thinks is funny. Since women tend to helm more drama/comedy films, I'd imagine that they bring in less money.

I'd say the best option here is to let some women direct big budget action films but not make a huge deal of it. It's not that hard to rig some explosives and let The Rock or Jason Statham wow us with stunts.

But that's not going to happen because gender identity is a brand, now. And we'll all be stuck grinding our teeth over the publicity surrounding the choice. And then we'll all go see Captain Marvel or Wonder Woman or the Matrix 4 despite swearing up and down we loathe the politics surrounding them.

Lather, rinse, repeat.
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Old 02-16-2020, 12:58 AM   #23
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Nobody is stopping women from doing anything today. Nobody. It's a bloody lie, and I'm frankly sick of reading how hard it is to host a vagina.

Man the hell up ladies.
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Old 02-16-2020, 01:55 AM   #24
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The argument is for more opportunities for women to enter the profession
That I can understand, but that's not what they're saying. Though I'm really unclear where women directors are being denied opportunities. Are there a lot of clear examples of budding women directors who did the same kind of short films with the same background that were blatantly passed over for male directors of the exact same standing? Oh, I'm sure it's happened... but no one seems to be able to point to any examples of it with specifics. If anything, nowadays, the "empowering women" type of movies... male directors aren't even considered for these things, it seems unheard of. And that seems equally if not more unjust. By the same token as acting is the act of pretending to be a thing, directing is running a business and executing a vision -- what does gender have to do with anything?

But yeah. Mostly just seems like a made up thing to beat a drum.
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Old 02-16-2020, 02:39 AM   #25
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Yes, it is. To suggest that five women get 50% of the work is insanity. And if that's what spurred this conversation, is there even a point in having it? It's Rose McGowan. Does anyone take her seriously?

And I think you're mistaking what bigotry looks like in this case. We're not talking about pig snouted caricatures of chauvinists literally belittling women to their faces and laughing them out of the office.

The complaint is that it's typically easier for a man to land job in certain professions.

It's the same with racism. It's not like there's a cabal of sheet-wearing, toothless white nationalists calling the shots. It's that the system we live in is designed to prefer one group over the other.

Just because we don't see this doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's subtle by design. It's supposed to be invisible so that no one wonders what the hell is going on.

A personal story:

I had a friend in high school who was a punk. I mean that literally: he was very much into the punk/metal scene. He dressed the part, too. Always done up in chains and spiked mohawks. Kid drew attention. It was hard to miss him.

He acted the part, too. He was easily one of the more outrageous people I've ever known. And that's saying something, since I've known some characters in my time.

As it goes, he ends up getting a girl pregnant. But kudos to him, he's high fidelity. He takes responsibility and he's there for her.

Problem is, she lives a town or two over. Neither of them have a car. So my buddy decides to walk to and from her place.

One night, on the way back home, he's hit by a car. Driver doesn't stick around, but the cops find him. Turns out, the driver owns a dealership, took the damaged car there and had it repaired. Told the mechanics he had hit a deer.

My friend died on the side of the road. It wasn't instant, either. He just lay there in the early morning hours bleeding out.

So they catch the guy, take him to court, and it's revealed this isn't the first time this guy pulled a hit and run. This the second. Both were fatalities. One was an old woman he hit while she was crossing the street. My friend was number 2.

Obviously, this guy has to be in trouble, right? Imagine our shock when he's given a suspended license and a small fine. No jail time. No public service. Rich white guy hits some poor Mexican kid and the rich white guy gets a slap on the wrist.

I couldn't believe it. Guy's still out there today living the high life. My friend's dead. System didn't care.

And this is one of the stories. My mother's been sexually harassed by cops. I have students who watched their mothers be assaulted. I have other friends who died because there is a very real bias in this country.
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Old 02-16-2020, 02:58 AM   #26
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Yes, it is. To suggest that five women get 50% of the work is insanity. And if that's what spurred this conversation, is there even a point in having it? It's Rose McGowan. Does anyone take her seriously?

And I think you're mistaking what bigotry looks like in this case. We're not talking about pig snouted caricatures of chauvinists literally belittling women to their faces and laughing them out of the office.

The complaint is that it's typically easier for a man to land job in certain professions.

It's the same with racism. It's not like there's a cabal of sheet-wearing, toothless white nationalists calling the shots. It's that the system we live in is designed to prefer one group over the other.

Just because we don't see this doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's subtle by design. It's supposed to be invisible so that no one wonders what the hell is going on.

A personal story:

I had a friend in high school who was a punk. I mean that literally: he was very much into the punk/metal scene. He dressed the part, too. Always done up in chains and spiked mohawks. Kid drew attention. It was hard to miss him.

He acted the part, too. He was easily one of the more outrageous people I've ever known. And that's saying something, since I've known some characters in my time.

As it goes, he ends up getting a girl pregnant. But kudos to him, he's high fidelity. He takes responsibility and he's there for her.

Problem is, she lives a town or two over. Neither of them have a car. So my buddy decides to walk to and from her place.

One night, on the way back home, he's hit by a car. Driver doesn't stick around, but the cops find him. Turns out, the driver owns a dealership, took the damaged car there and had it repaired. Told the mechanics he had hit a deer.

My friend died on the side of the road. It wasn't instant, either. He just lay there in the early morning hours bleeding out.

So they catch the guy, take him to court, and it's revealed this isn't the first time this guy pulled a hit and run. This the second. Both were fatalities. One was an old woman he hit while she was crossing the street. My friend was number 2.

Obviously, this guy has to be in trouble, right? Imagine our shock when he's given a suspended license and a small fine. No jail time. No public service. Rich white guy hits some poor Mexican kid and the rich white guy gets a slap on the wrist.

I couldn't believe it. Guy's still out there today living the high life. My friend's dead. System didn't care.

And this is one of the stories. My mother's been sexually harassed by cops. I have students who watched their mothers be assaulted. I have other friends who died because there is a very real bias in this country.
No, you're wrong, on all levels. You should be asking yourself, DESPITE having all the advantage of being courted and handheld by the industry who is FALLING over itself to be as inclusive as possible, WHY don't more women have big successful careers as Directors.

The Misogynistic 80's male is long dead. It's a boogeyman that's gatekeeping on behalf of talentless hacks who happen to be female, but don't appeal to a wide audience.

Why is BOP the fault of anyone BUT the people involved? How many flops over the years have been attributed to the quality of the product? A: all. But lately, a new excuse has emerged, one men never ever used. We never said "not enough women showed up to watch RAMBO, so, they're clearly man haters.

It's absurd, especially when 50% of the top earners in the entertainment industry are women, with ridiculous power.

Put the punch back in the bowl, it's poison.
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Old 02-16-2020, 06:39 AM   #27
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Your Rose McGowan impression is spot on!
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Old 02-16-2020, 09:14 AM   #28
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It's not that hard to rig some explosives and let The Rock or Jason Statham wow us with stunts.
I disagree.
How many action movies are out there and how many are remembered?
If it was easy everyone could be Michael Bay or James Cameron. And we'd had thousand of good Rambos and Terminators. Alas, it is not the case.

Besides, most of the Statham and Rock movies are not really remembered as anything special. As well as their directors. So, I'd say giving women action movies, won't change much either.

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But that's not going to happen because gender identity is a brand, now. And we'll all be stuck grinding our teeth over the publicity surrounding the choice. And then we'll all go see Captain Marvel or Wonder Woman or the Matrix 4 despite swearing up and down we loathe the politics surrounding them.

Lather, rinse, repeat.
I haven't seen either of them in the cinema and not planning to.

Besides, we, people who complain about politics, are just a tiny fraction of the audience. A minority, if you will. Most people who watch those movies don't really care about politics or how much characters are true to the source material. And this exactly the people who make or break box-office numbers. Otherwise, projects like BOP or latest Charlie's Angels would've made an enormous box-office. But we are seeing a different picture.

Also, I am sorry about your friend, though I see it as more the case of the guy with the money, rather than him being white. This stories like this are very common in Russia.
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Old 02-16-2020, 11:15 AM   #29
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People rely so much on the balance argument that they forget that the talent and clarity of ideas and drive tends to land work. Although I will say that those biases, ironically, are probably exerted more in Hollywood than anywhere else.

But with that said, you can't just insert women into director jobs and say "there you go!". We've seen a slew of women Directing movies lately and many of those movies have been met with backlash to their woke politics (i.e. Charlie's Angels). Direct a good movie and keep virtue signaling out of it and you'll see a different result (i.e. Wonder Woman). And in turn, you might see more women directors.

And more importantly, much more importantly than that, you have these people going on about the need for more woman Directors, but the fact is that if you had more women in that industry wanting those jobs, then you'd have more women directors.

The fact is that women who make noise about more women Directors should really be saying to women "more of you should want to be Directors" because that's what they are really arguing for behind the veil of equity.
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Old 02-16-2020, 10:56 PM   #30
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[QUOTE=Sumac;1835775]I disagree.
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How many action movies are out there and how many are remembered?
If it was easy everyone could be Michael Bay or James Cameron. And we'd had thousand of good Rambos and Terminators. Alas, it is not the case.

Besides, most of the Statham and Rock movies are not really remembered as anything special. As well as their directors. So, I'd say giving women action movies, won't change much either.
That's my point. No one really cares about them.

I think this issue can be broken down into two main parts. There's the actual problem of sexism, which we can debate all day.

Then there's the way it's depicted through the media. This is where a majority of the dialogue plays out, and it's usually used as an opportunity to virtue signal.

I don't think anyone should be surprised by this, though. It's not like Hollywood doesn't use any and every opportunity to denounce some evil in the world then do nothing about it.

And that's why I say kick a few of the action flicks to female directors. The argument being made is that there isn't enough opportunity for them. And you're absolutely right that most action movies are forgettable nonsense. That being the case, it wouldn't be a huge loss either way if female directors got a chance at that.

I'll go a step further and predict this: that won't be enough. Doing this will only call Hollywood's bluff, and afterwards there will be a call for more awards to be given to women, because they're only getting a chance to helm crappy action flicks.

This, I feel, speaks more to the frustration I get from a lot of people on the Drome. That it's not an actual issue being discussed, but something being done for the spectacle. It's generating conflict rather than putting forth any solution, because any solution, no matter how good, isn't going to be enough.



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Also, I am sorry about your friend, though I see it as more the case of the guy with the money, rather than him being white. This stories like this are very common in Russia.
Thank you.

I'm positive the money had something to do with it, yeah. The shocking thing was he wasn't THAT incredibly rich.

It's just something that really nags at me. The injustice of it all. The guy murdered two people and was dealt NOTHING in the way of punishment.
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Old 02-17-2020, 10:32 AM   #31
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That's my point. No one really cares about them.

I think this issue can be broken down into two main parts. There's the actual problem of sexism, which we can debate all day.

Then there's the way it's depicted through the media. This is where a majority of the dialogue plays out, and it's usually used as an opportunity to virtue signal.

I don't think anyone should be surprised by this, though. It's not like Hollywood doesn't use any and every opportunity to denounce some evil in the world then do nothing about it.

And that's why I say kick a few of the action flicks to female directors. The argument being made is that there isn't enough opportunity for them. And you're absolutely right that most action movies are forgettable nonsense. That being the case, it wouldn't be a huge loss either way if female directors got a chance at that.

I'll go a step further and predict this: that won't be enough. Doing this will only call Hollywood's bluff, and afterwards there will be a call for more awards to be given to women, because they're only getting a chance to helm crappy action flicks.

This, I feel, speaks more to the frustration I get from a lot of people on the Drome. That it's not an actual issue being discussed, but something being done for the spectacle. It's generating conflict rather than putting forth any solution, because any solution, no matter how good, isn't going to be enough.
Well, unless studios will start buying tickets en masse to pretend that female-directed movies are doing fine in a box-office, I don't think picture will change. They can't force people to go and watch those movies, so this whole thing is just another case of useless and worthless virtue signaling, which accomplishes nothing.

Though, there was a practice in USSR, which sometimes used in modern day Russia as well: if the movie considered to be of utmost importance, like some sort historical flick about "good old days of Russian empire fighting evil foreigners" or "Story of a brave soldier in a World War 2", local bureaucrats inflate box-office numbers as well as gather workers and pupils from schools and send them to the movie, sometimes for free.

Funny thing, those "important movies" are usually financed from state budget and even with those measures, they fail in box-office.
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Old 02-17-2020, 11:30 AM   #32
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Well, unless studios will start buying tickets en masse to pretend that female-directed movies are doing fine in a box-office, I don't think picture will change. They can't force people to go and watch those movies, so this whole thing is just another case of useless and worthless virtue signaling, which accomplishes nothing.

Though, there was a practice in USSR, which sometimes used in modern day Russia as well: if the movie considered to be of utmost importance, like some sort historical flick about "good old days of Russian empire fighting evil foreigners" or "Story of a brave soldier in a World War 2", local bureaucrats inflate box-office numbers as well as gather workers and pupils from schools and send them to the movie, sometimes for free.

Funny thing, those "important movies" are usually financed from state budget and even with those measures, they fail in box-office.
Most movies are such generic fare that unless you have someone with a signature feel on their art (Spielberg intros and transitions, or Nolan pacing, Abrams lens flare, etc) that unless I knew going into the movie, then I couldn't tell you who half the people who directed movies were, and often I don't care. I'd bet that most people are the same. Studios just need to put the talent on the films as it fits and the free market will decide. To say that everything is racist if the free market doesn't support something is ridiculous.
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Old 02-17-2020, 12:25 PM   #33
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To say that everything is racist if the free market doesn't support something is ridiculous.
B-b-but how come people do not want to see brave and stunning strong women?! There must be some other reason, rather than the movie being piece of crap, I tell you!!
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Old 02-17-2020, 01:06 PM   #34
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B-b-but how come people do not want to see brave and stunning strong women?! There must be some other reason, rather than the movie being piece of crap, I tell you!!
I don't know how old you are, but do you remember when movies had "brave and stunning women" in them for decades? Yet they never announced this nor touted it as a tent pole calling card? It was just there and it was accepted and entertaining.

What happened that there is an entire generation of fools that think they are these agents of change over evil as if nothing was done before them?

It's one thing to continue to make progress, but when so many people don't acknowledge the real level at which we are at, then it becomes pretty clear that those same people are fighting for self-servicing reasons and not for a cause. In short, I don't believe them. They are full of ****.
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Old 02-17-2020, 06:39 PM   #35
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I don't know how old you are, but do you remember when movies had "brave and stunning women" in them for decades? Yet they never announced this nor touted it as a tent pole calling card? It was just there and it was accepted and entertaining.

What happened that there is an entire generation of fools that think they are these agents of change over evil as if nothing was done before them?

It's one thing to continue to make progress, but when so many people don't acknowledge the real level at which we are at, then it becomes pretty clear that those same people are fighting for self-servicing reasons and not for a cause. In short, I don't believe them. They are full of ****.
It was a sarcastic post.
But I agree, most of those screaming twats are just in it for Internet headpats.
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Old 02-17-2020, 06:43 PM   #36
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I am sorry about the loss of your friend, Voltron.

You have my condolences.
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Old 02-17-2020, 10:01 PM   #37
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It was a sarcastic post.
LOL I know.....
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