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Old 03-24-2020, 04:02 PM   #41
pferreira
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Have fun with those windmills, Don Quixote.
Whatever. I don't need your replies to make me feel okay.

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Uh, no. Here's the thing, there's a fundamental difference between James Cameron giving Terminator 2 obvious callbacks to the original, and what David Wise in regards to his writing.
The original Terminator movie rips off a story by Harlan Ellison which he sued and won (drops mic).

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Both MASK and Duck Tales had a plot about metal eating mites......
No you see neatoman considers those rubbish cartoons because they're from the 80's.

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A child does not have very high standards
Speak for yourself. I still like almost everything I enjoyed as a kid thank you.

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Come to think of it, despite your argument being bad, it's actually better than anything ZariusTwo and pferreira tried here. Because it does tackle the subject of this thread, it just ignores an important distinction.
In other words:

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Old 03-24-2020, 05:01 PM   #42
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Iím only familiar with David Wiseís work on TMNT, Cadillacs and Dinosaurs and Batman: TAS, but itís clear from the examples given in this thread that he did recycle scripts. Still enjoyed most episodes he wrote, though how much of the finished product was his own writing is debatable.
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:10 PM   #43
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Considering you're obsessed with proving David Wise is worthless yeah I would be inclined to feel you have a bias.
I explain that it Wise's and not her credibility that is in question, that sentence was really short and to the point. The only reason I see for you editing it out is to misrepresent me, like you clearly like to do.

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Say whaaaat? Jack Mendelsohn was responsible for being in charge of Season 2, Wise was just a writer and you're putting the blame on Wise for the extra doses of humour? Wise was integral to the writing crew but he didn't have power over Mendelsohn. Mendelsohn was the one to make the decisions because he was the one keeping everybody's scripts in check which is what a script editor does.
That has nothing to do with the paragraph you're responding to here. You're basically making up a point I never made. You're the one the one who brought up Mendelsohn in the first place and I did not say anything about the added humour. Anything I said said about Mendelsohn or the added humour is because you brought it, and my response to that was that I'm not pointing out when Mendelsohn is lying or recycling scripts, because I don't if he did.

And the point you're trying to make here isn't even one I'm trying to refute, you're pulling it from thin air as if it's a counterargument to something I claimed, which is it isn't.

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You're looking for excuses to say David Wise wasn't integral to anything good in TMNT. Listen to yourself man.
It's hard to tell because we don't have evidence for his claims and we know for a fact that some are straight up lies, the problem here is that he is not a credible source. How many times do I have to say this and how many times do I have to point out that his own words are not evidence that he's telling the truth? His claims have to be confirmed by others in order for us to be sure.

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While Playmates would ask for characters to be represented in the cartoon this wasn't a situation like Transformers where Hasbro had final say on which characters appeared in each episode. See Ace Duck, the writers didn't care as did Fred Wolf (see the start of the Turtle Power doc)
But these characters did end up in the show, maybe they didn't have final say but it's clear they had influence.


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I can sum this up by saying it doesn't fit your narrative. Just be honest.
I explained this, right there in plain text and a simple sentence. Your "just your narrative" response is one of your laziest attempts at a response as of yet, because it doesn't even attempt to warp what I said or pull something that vaguely resembles a point. If it turns Jack Mendelsohn or Francis Moss have blatantly lied about something, I will not try to blame David Wise about it.

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According to YOUR opinion.
What I'm responding to there is your tendency to appeal to popularity. The reason you need to argue for why the writing itself is strong is because something being popular isn't an indication that it's well made or is otherwise of good quality. Here's an example that is more extreme than wheter or not someone likes a TV show but it gets the point across: "Mandy thinks about starting to smoke, everyone she knows smokes, except for her doctor. Her doctor says smoking will cause several serious health problems and has plenty of evidence to show that it will. Still curious, she asks 50 if they enjoy smoking and think she should, they all do. Since it's 50 to 1, she starts smoking, because clearly that's a good idea."

See the problem? Again, I know smoking and a cartoon aren't the same thing but the basic idea applies.

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Yeah because the IDW comic never used any elements of the FW series for its own did it? That hole you're digging is crater by this point...
Not really my point either. It's yet another thing I shouldn't have to explain but here goes, the Fred Wolf cartoon and the IDW comic are not the same product. When there's bad writing or artwork in one, it does not bleed into the other. Wheter or not they share idea is not relevant to their individual quality.

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The problem is we have to rely on people who worked there at the time, not your own subjective opinion. A couple of times I've quoted people you've criticised because you didn't think I had an argument. It's obvious you have your own agenda but you can't say I'm talking out of my butt.
The primary person you keep pointing to is David Wise and we know David Wise lied. It's not my subjective opinion that David Wise lied, we know he lied because his statements can be proven false by simply reading a comic book. There's no angle from which he was correct when we know for a fact that what he said was wrong. The only ways you'd believe him would either be ignorance or making up excuses. It almost seems like you want me to think his word somehow trumps both the evidence against him, as well as the people who contradict him. That is not how this works.

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The original Terminator movie rips off a story by Harlan Ellison which he sued and won (drops mic).
An Outer Limits episode, I've seen it. There's not that much in common with with Terminator if you watch it. The only similarity is that a soldier from the future gets sent back in time. Where they differ is that in Terminator the soldier is sent back to prevent an assination that would lead to a total machine apocalypse, in the episode the soldier end up back in time by accident and learns the value of a life off the battlefield. The obvious similarities are few and superficial. And from what I can tell Harlan Ellison did not win any lawsuit either, he threatened to sue and they settled out of court. Basically, it was just cheaper and easier than fighting a legal battle. He might have won, given how they caved into his demands but that is an important distinction to make. Besides, my argument was about how two James Cameron stories being similar was different from when David Wise straight up resused scripts, not wheter or not they ripped off someone else, that's a different discussion.

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Speak for yourself. I still like almost everything I enjoyed as a kid thank you.
... Uh... That's quite rare I'd say...
The statement says quite a lot on it's own, but find it amusing that you appeal to the popularity of things most men your age admit to either have lost interest in a long time ago or haven't bothered to check out since childhood.

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I did say why his argument is better, because it's actually on topic, it doesn't dance around the topic to make irrelevant points.
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Old 03-25-2020, 04:05 AM   #44
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There are decent toons today too : Fireman Sam , Rasmus Klump , Mr Bean , Garfield......not everything is bad
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Old 03-25-2020, 04:09 AM   #45
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"And why do we call these 'masks'? This is a helmet... not a mask..."

"M.A.S.K.! Do they know... 'Command' doesn't start with a K?"
Same with Mortal Kombat
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Old 03-25-2020, 09:25 PM   #46
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Whatever. I don't need your replies to make me feel okay.


Speak for yourself. I still like almost everything I enjoyed as a kid thank you.
Re: Quoted Line #2 - I am shocked. It's not every day that you encounter a person who brags about having undergone absolutely zero personal or intellectual growth since they were a child, but then nothing about this place shocks me anymore. If you're genuinely thrilled about still seeing things through the eyes of a five year old, and find that to be something to be proud of, well... I guess whoever said "Ignorance is Bliss" was well and truly correct.

Re: Quoted Line #1 - Good, judging by your posting history there's most likely an entire regiment of small pills designed to do that, so I'm glad you don't need me.

You are very much "not okay", sir. I've seen you carry on this whole "The FW cartoon was perfect"/"No, it really wasn't"/"Yes it WAS you big meanie!" crusade for years now, and it's almost the only thing you post about, at least at any length.

This thoroughly mediocre cartoon show from 25+ years ago is not your child to defend, it belongs to "the world" by this point and they can judge it however they want to. Lots of them don't love it anymore. Get over it. I don't think anyone here is entertained by this circle-jerk anymore. If you simply can't handle the fact that people say objectively-true "negative" things about a kids' show, then you're better off going to the TMNT FB page where any criticism whatsoever is not allowed. That seems much more your speed.

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Same with Mortal Kombat
It's a Robot Chicken joke. They have riffed on M.A.S.K. several times, which is the only reason anyone remembers it nowadays.
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Old 03-31-2020, 11:19 AM   #47
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That has nothing to do with the paragraph you're responding to here. You're basically making up a point I never made. You're the one the one who brought up Mendelsohn in the first place and I did not say anything about the added humour. Anything I said said about Mendelsohn or the added humour is because you brought it, and my response to that was that I'm not pointing out when Mendelsohn is lying or recycling scripts, because I don't if he did.
You're complaining about the quality of the writing, especially the humour and I point to Jack Mendelsohn taking over as being the one to incorporate humour. You're confusing myself and yourself in an attempt to say I don't know what I'm talking about which I do.

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It's hard to tell because we don't have evidence for his claims and we know for a fact that some are straight up lies, the problem here is that he is not a credible source. How many times do I have to say this and how many times do I have to point out that his own words are not evidence that he's telling the truth? His claims have to be confirmed by others in order for us to be sure.
Yet you've complain generally about the writers and Fred Wolf's intentions for the series and when I provide evidence you conveniently forget and instead come up with threads like "why did David Wise plagiarise Superman" which is just desperate. Doesn't matter what you believe Wise tells you, you don't believe anyone associated with that series because you hate it!

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But these characters did end up in the show, maybe they didn't have final say but it's clear they had influence.
Not all. Maybe half or just over did. compare that to Transformers when pretty certain 99% of all characters in the toyline appeared because of Hasbro. The writers really didn't care about including toys, neither did Fred Wolf as previously stated. You're grasping at straws without correlating evidence around it.

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Your "just your narrative" response is one of your laziest attempts at a response as of yet
You aren't listening because you have your fingers in your ears that's why I say it doesn't fit your narrative.

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See the problem? Again, I know smoking and a cartoon aren't the same thing but the basic idea applies.
No, the only problem I see is you turning your revisionist narrative into an objective fact because you don't like something.

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it does not bleed into the other.
So you deny rather noticeable aspects of the IDW comic which you love if it's related to the Fred Wolf cartoon series. Remember what I said about bias?

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we know he lied because his statements can be proven false by simply reading a comic book.
No man I'm not saying you should have believed everything Wise said as fact. He was very close to the cartoon and as I mentioned before felt a lack of entitlement as a result. He exaggerated stuff about the creation of TMNT, we know that. However that doesn't mean he lied about EVERYTHING. His writing pals on the cartoon have tons of respect for him. If he was a liar would they feel that way? Check out his Facebook condolences, they ain't all from fans. It's an easy question to answer.

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Besides, my argument was about how two James Cameron stories being similar was different from when David Wise straight up resused scripts, not wheter or not they ripped off someone else, that's a different discussion.
Regardless of the outcome you're putting Cameron on a pedestal for coming up with a non-recycled concept and saying I'm putting Wise on a pedestal when both did the same thing. Where's that black kettle...

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It's not every day that you encounter a person who brags about having undergone absolutely zero personal or intellectual growth since they were a child, but then nothing about this place shocks me anymore. If you're genuinely thrilled about still seeing things through the eyes of a five year old, and find that to be something to be proud of, well... I guess whoever said "Ignorance is Bliss" was well and truly correct.
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The statement says quite a lot on it's own, but find it amusing that you appeal to the popularity of things most men your age admit to either have lost interest in a long time ago or haven't bothered to check out since childhood.
I'm a film and TV buff of older stuff. I'm also fussy about what I watch. I stopped caring what other men think back when I was 16, I'm not shallow like you guys.

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Good, judging by your posting history there's most likely an entire regiment of small pills designed to do that, so I'm glad you don't need me.
And you just crossed the line.
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Old 03-31-2020, 09:48 PM   #48
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And you just proved my entire point with your novella towards neatoman. So?

Your repeated, irrational and overcompensating defense of a kids show that was cancelled over 25 years ago speaks volumes. It goes well beyond being "a fan".

I'm not being mean, simply stating facts. You said that you don't require my approval to feel okay. To that I say, if you were at all "okay", you wouldn't throw a tantrum every time someone points out the numerous flaws of a long-dead children's program.

Your priorities are terrible and your ability to accept basic factual information is nonexistent. It is not cute anymore. It derails actual conversation and is very, very annoying.

If you are going to continue to take any and all criticism of this cartoon as a personal insult, in addition to ignoring any and all facts which don't fit your chosen narrative, then I and others are going to continue to assume that you're malfunctioning.

Plenty of people here love the show and can handle the truth about it in a manner befitting of a grown-up. I suggest that you learn from their example. That's as nice as I can be about it.
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Old 04-01-2020, 09:28 AM   #49
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And I'm tired of pointing out when he's writing irrelevant nonsense and ignoring what the actual points are in favour of making strawmen, anyone can check in and see what he's doing wrong by now. I'm just going to make a list of the new problems but keep in mind that there are still other problems with what he wrote, it's just that I've already refuted it and you can just go back and read it.
  • Animation errors and plotholes are not revisionism, they were always there and always problems. People "liking" the product in spite of these flaws does not mean they aren't flaws.
  • No David Wise did not lie about everything but the lies still makes it hard to tell when he told the truth, and having people who mourn/respect him does not change that.
  • Liking the same stuff you did 30+ years ago and being uncritical/defensive of it does not make you a "film and TV buff of older stuff", it means you have rigid taste. If you were a "film and TV buff of older stuff" you'd seek out older material you've never seen before and find new favourites. In that scenario your taste would still change, I seriously doubt most people who check out Orson Welles movies from before they were born still enjoy all the movies they liked as children.
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Old 04-01-2020, 12:26 PM   #50
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If you were a "film and TV buff of older stuff" you'd seek out older material you've never seen before and find new favourites. In that scenario your taste would still change, I seriously doubt most people who check out Orson Welles movies from before they were born still enjoy all the movies they liked as children.
So I guess I am qualified as a buff of older stuff, since I seeked out the FW tmnt stuff, having not grown up with it.

It's an incredibly flawed show, but one I enjoy nonetheless immensely.

I also dig Marlon Brando movies, since that handsome man had endless charm and charisma (even when he got fat).

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Old 04-01-2020, 01:25 PM   #51
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You're kinda one of the people I had in mind when I spoke of people who can enjoy the old show for what it is without being delusional about it.

A neatoman reiterated, liking the show is Perfectly Fine, but ignoring basic factual information and going on lengthy argument rants about it simply is not. Or the constant accusations of hating/bashing/trashing when nobody's even DOING that here as far as I've seen. Just really tiresome.

I appreciate the show just fine for what it is, but I have a real distaste for people who act like facts don't exist just because they don't suit their personal narrative. Regardless of topic, that kinda sh*t just irks me to no end. Especially if people are going to get combative about it.

Some people need to stick to the FB page. They go out of their way there to delete any "negativity", so if people only ever wanna gush about how perfect and awesome everything is, then fine, there's your echo chamber, folks. Some people actually enjoy a more nuanced level of conversation, though, and it doesn't make them bad people.
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Old 04-01-2020, 04:19 PM   #52
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So I guess I am qualified as a buff of older stuff, since I seeked out the FW tmnt stuff, having not grown up with it.

It's an incredibly flawed show, but one I enjoy nonetheless immensely.

I also dig Marlon Brando movies, since that handsome man had endless charm and charisma (even when he got fat).
I guess Iím qualified as a buff of older stuff, as I seeked out the 1990 movie, which I didnít grow up with.

I still kinda like the 1987 series for what it is, even though I agree itís an incredibly flawed show.

The Fugitive is my favourite tv show and that came out decades before I was born.
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Old 04-01-2020, 04:56 PM   #53
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So I guess I am qualified as a buff of older stuff, since I seeked out the FW tmnt stuff, having not grown up with it.

It's an incredibly flawed show, but one I enjoy nonetheless immensely.

I also dig Marlon Brando movies, since that handsome man had endless charm and charisma (even when he got fat).
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I guess I’m qualified as a buff of older stuff, as I seeked out the 1990 movie, which I didn’t grow up with.

I still kinda like the 1987 series for what it is, even though I agree it’s an incredibly flawed show.

The Fugitive is my favourite tv show and that came out decades before I was born.
Yeah, I guess you two would qualify. Seeking out material you haven't seen before to broaden your palette is a good thing, regardless of wheter or not other people agree with whatever opinion you form as a result. And it's also very good to be able to see and accept the flaws with what you like, that means you have the ability to think critically and can develop said ability.

What's not healthy is to have an inflexible opinion, exaggerate the quality, ignore the flaws even when they're obvious and warp counterarguments into something that's easier to defend against. That is not how you should view art and entertainment, or really anything for that matter.
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Old 04-01-2020, 06:02 PM   #54
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Man, I can't believe this thread is still active.
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Old 04-02-2020, 01:07 PM   #55
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Plenty of people here love the show and can handle the truth about it in a manner befitting of a grown-up. I suggest that you learn from their example. That's as nice as I can be about it.
Acting like a hypocrite and a bully does you no favours. Stop bullying people for liking a TV show. First you of course have to grow up.

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What's not healthy is to have an inflexible opinion, exaggerate the quality, ignore the flaws even when they're obvious and warp counterarguments into something that's easier to defend against. That is not how you should view art and entertainment, or really anything for that matter.
Says the guy who likes the IDW comic which contains FW elements.

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A neatoman reiterated, liking the show is Perfectly Fine, but ignoring basic factual information and going on lengthy argument rants about it simply is not. Or the constant accusations of hating/bashing/trashing when nobody's even DOING that here as far as I've seen. Just really tiresome.
Tiresome is saying someone can't find good things in a TV show that was made for children because you're 'grown up'. What that really means of course is you just haven't grown up to the point of appreciating things from different demographics.

In saying it's okay to like the FW series you're doing the exact opposite thing by saying I belong in a mental hospital. Sucks to be you.

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So I guess I am qualified as a buff of older stuff, since I seeked out the FW tmnt stuff, having not grown up with it.
It goes against his subjective narrative so he ignores your opinion as does Leo666 or whatever he's called.
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Old 04-02-2020, 02:12 PM   #56
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I'm sorry, but I simply don't have time for simpletons. Please don't engage with me any further. This is the one and only time I'm going to ask nicely.

You're a child, and I don't engage with children.

Best of luck in your future endeavors. Or go away. Either is fine.

This advice is for your own good, trust me. You'll find that I'm nowhere near as patient or kind as neatoman. Walk away.
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Old 04-02-2020, 05:14 PM   #57
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Acting like a hypocrite and a bully does you no favours. Stop bullying people for liking a TV show. First you of course have to grow up.
Look man, neatoman and Leo656 are not bullying anyone.
Simply repeating something over and over again doesn't make it true, it just makes you tiring to talk with and makes for unproductive discussions in what have been otherwise productive threads.

People are allowed to like the Fred Wolf series and express why they do so, but the same goes for criticism.
Criticism is not the same as bashing.

You know what is bashing though? Accussing other people of not being real fans and dismissing them just because of their like for a certain tmnt incarnation, like what TommyT does in the Rise section for example, by callings fans trolls/fans without offering any opinion about the show in question.

That's not something that neatoman or Leo656 do, at the very least in the context of the Fred Wolf cartoon.

You on the other hand.....

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Says the guy who likes the IDW comic which contains FW elements.
And this makes for productive discussion in what way?
This goes back to my point of bashing, you simply dismiss neatoman because he likes the IDW tmnt comics, offering no actual criticism of the comics themselves in their respective sections on the forums.

Its ironic, you accuse neatoman of bashing when he has offered nothing but impersonal criticism of the show (granted, I heavily disagree with him at times and debate him regularly on the entertainment value of Fred Wolf tmnt), but you're doing that exact same thing OVER AND OVER AGAIN by pointing the finger at him for being an IDW fan (as if it makes your points more valid. Hint: it doesn't), when that's not even the topic of discussion.

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Tiresome is saying someone can't find good things in a TV show that was made for children because you're 'grown up'. What that really means of course is you just haven't grown up to the point of appreciating things from different demographics.
You know what's actually tiring? Someone who can't handle an opposing opinion about a children's cartoon.

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In saying it's okay to like the FW series you're doing the exact opposite thing by saying I belong in a mental hospital. Sucks to be you.
If you were accused of being in a mental hospital from day one just for being a fan of the Fred Wolf cartoon from day one, I would be more sympathetic to your side.
Heck, I actually supported you back when you were first accused of being from a mental hospital and your personal information was leaked because it was aimed directly at you and had nothing to do with discussions about the Fred Wolf toon.

But after all these years of simply dismissing others for having opposing opinions and personally attacking them (like your repeated remarks that mock neatoman for his Swedish heritage just for saying that the Fred Wolf series is rubbish), are you really surprised that the same thing is coming back to bite you in the ass?

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It goes against his subjective narrative so he ignores your opinion as does Leo666 or whatever he's called.
Neither of the two ignore my opinion and/or personally attack me just for being a devoted fan of the Fred Wolf tmnt cartoon, and that's what makes me respect them, even though the difference in our opinions about the cartoon are like night and day.
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The biggest villains were the censors.
What they could do without being held back is my question.
Shredder could've done more than blow up the Channel Six building.
I don't mean as far as murdering Splinter, but think of the possibilities if censors were not an issue.
Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.
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Old 04-02-2020, 05:29 PM   #58
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I did kinda get a little bit bullying in that last post. But that's me being all out of patience and also, we're all kinda dealing with a lotta sh*t right now.

But yeah, your post is very much on-point. It's not that the guy likes the show that gets on peoples' nerves; it's the strawman fallacies, circular logic, outright dismissal of any facts which he finds "inconvenient", and general "No, YOU" responses in absence of anything relevant to add in support of his position.

Look, we all have opinions and everyone deserves to be heard. Sometimes I'll play "Devil's advocate" and argue from a position I don't entirely agree with just to shine light on things that maybe aren't being considered that maybe ought to be. I really don't care what opinions a person holds as long as they can support those positions in a reasonable manner and not hand-wave facts that contradict their own personal narrative. Once a person starts doing that, I won't even pretend to respect them or their position any further, because they're literally blowing hot air.

So. That's my position. Thanks for basically saying the same thing some of us have been trying to say, albeit in a much more even-handed fashion.

I'm not capable of being very nice, most times. Just not wired that way. But I do try VERY hard not to lose my patience. When people are being willfully obtuse, it becomes incredibly difficult.
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Old 04-02-2020, 07:46 PM   #59
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And I should just clarify a few things about my opinion on the IDW series and its relation to the Fred Wolf cartoon.

Yes, the IDW series is not flawless and it does lift some things from the Fred Wolf cartoon. However:
  • A flaw in the Fred Wolf cartoon, such an animation error or a sound mixing error, does not transfer to the IDW series. That should be obvious to anyone, IDW can't possibly carry over such problems.
  • As anyone who has both read Mirage and watched Fred Wolf should know, something being "based" on something else doesn't mean they're interchangeable. Mirage Leatherhead is an intelligent and kind creature with anger issues who just wants to rejoin what he consideres his family, Fred Wolf Leatherhead is a cruel bully with little regard for anything other than his own well being. These two are only the same character in the sense of what they are, mutant alligators, and their name. Likewise, I could hardly say Fred Wolf Mutagen Man and IDW MM are all that similar.
  • It is also possible to improve characters and concepts. The world of comics are full of characters that weren't all that great from the start, but have since become very interesting, simply by coming up with a better way of writing them. Mr. Freeze was little more than the "must live in the cold and carries freeze ray" gimmick, he had very little reason to do much of anything. Add an sick wife he couldn't save and presto, Emmy time! Likewise, Bebop and Rocksteady were little more than idiot henchmen in the Fred Wolf cartoon, not very interesting. But add some hyperviolence, insane destructive abilities, sociopathic personalities and an admission that nobody would really want them around, you actually have something that is amusing.

The keyword here is improvement. Virtually nothing that came from the Fred Wolf cartoon (or let's be honest, the toyline) and ended up in the IDW comic did so unaltered. If characters and concepts did not change from iteration to iteration, then the Fred Wolf cartoon itself would be an extremely different show.
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