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Old 11-10-2015, 05:31 PM   #1
Groverman62
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Raph's Treatment on the show

So... on the subject of Raphael.

People say that he has been treated poorly. And yes he did not get any real focus in Season 3. But I wanna know has his character been mishandled or gotten wrong. in some way.

You could say that he is not tough as he was, I dont really see that. And some have said that the writers hate him. But I dont really agree with that, you dont have to hate a character to write them poorly.

What do you guys think?
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Old 11-10-2015, 06:50 PM   #2
Sabacooza
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Being a Raphael fan, I can answer this. In the beginning, he was treated pretty well. He had spike as a pet that added to his character, he was afraid of bugs which is usually associated with the character which was fine and he even started to have a closer friendship with Casey which was expected. He had some pretty cool moments and seemed rather tough. as the series went on, Spike turned into Slash and later Slash's interaction and connection with Raph had disappeared, Casey was no longer best friends with him or it wasn't allowed to develop further, He was then afraid of horses and now being in space. It also started to develop that Raph was the go to character for being the butt of the jokes as well as being incapacitated and having to be rescued all the time. He is usually always made to be wrong and never saves the day. He was made into a pretty weak character unfortunately. Because of all this, I felt the writers and producers hated the character. Now that's a pretty strong statement and maybe they really don't but they have done nothing to make me feel otherwise. I really wanted my favorite turtle to shine here and there and be strong and protective like he should be. Maybe that will happen this season but I don't have much hope.

People can bash me for feeling the way I do. That's fine but if you're not a Raphael fan, you really won't understand. You won't see the flaws surrounding the character. When we watch the show, we're usually invested in the ones we like the most and not much else matters.
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Old 11-10-2015, 06:55 PM   #3
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Oh, this thread again. Great.

How long before Rambo comes in to burn it down?
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Old 11-10-2015, 06:57 PM   #4
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I am a Raphael fan and I see nothing wrong with his character portrayal. Raph doesn't need tons of development he is the smart ass tough guy turtle.

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Oh, this thread again. Great.

How long before Rambo comes in to burn it down?
Also Warhorse too
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Old 11-10-2015, 07:09 PM   #5
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Raph suffers from Worf syndrome, in that he's taken down and hurt to prove how formidable another character is.

As for his fears of things like bugs and horses, isn't that straight from Mirage?
The bug thing is...or at very least his dislike of creepy crawly things. I'd have to re-read the Feudal Japan stories to doublecheck on his dislike of horses...but I know it's not the first time I've seen that somewhere.

If possible though?
Could we lay off the No True Scotsman fallacies?
You can be a fan of Raph and not like a specific incarnation of him.
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just ignore what you don't like rather than obsessing over it and move on with your life.
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Old 11-10-2015, 07:09 PM   #6
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(clears throat)

Read this thread on why people, myself included, have issues with the characterization of Raphael of this series. Though outdated, you'll get better answers: http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=51804
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Old 11-10-2015, 07:20 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by plastroncafe View Post
Raph suffers from Worf syndrome, in that he's taken down and hurt to prove how formidable another character is.
This I've also noticed. It can be frustrating to say the least.
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Old 11-10-2015, 07:25 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Sabacooza View Post
This I've also noticed and it's so frustrating.
And now you know exactly how I felt when Ciro went on his, "Girl characters get too powerful" tangent.

So given that, I'm not all that surprised by this kind of treatment of male characters as well.
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So your wants and needs as a fan should outweigh everyone else's?
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There's no sense catering just to one demographic which is idiotic.
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just ignore what you don't like rather than obsessing over it and move on with your life.
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Old 11-10-2015, 07:28 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabacooza View Post
Being a Raphael fan, I can answer this. In the beginning, he was treated pretty well. He had spike as a pet that added to his character, he was afraid of bugs which is usually associated with the character which was fine and he even started to have a closer friendship with Casey which was expected. He had some pretty cool moments and seemed rather tough. as the series went on, Spike turned into Slash and later Slash's interaction and connection with Raph had disappeared, Casey was no longer best friends with him or it wasn't allowed to develop further, He was then afraid of horses and now being in space. It also started to develop that Raph was the go to character for being the butt of the jokes as well as being incapacitated and having to be rescued all the time. He is usually always made to be wrong and never saves the day. He was made into a pretty weak character unfortunately. Because of all this, I felt the writers and producers hated the character. Now that's a pretty strong statement and maybe they really don't but they have done nothing to make me feel otherwise. I really wanted my favorite turtle to shine here and there and be strong and protective like he should be. Maybe that will happen this season but I don't have much hope.

People can bash me for feeling the way I do. That's fine but if you're not a Raphael fan, you really won't understand. You won't see the flaws surrounding the character. When we watch the show, we're usually invested in the ones we like the most and not much else matters.
There's very few moments when Raph is the only turtle who needs to be saved , and Mikeys usually the one who's the but of jokes and Raphael makes a ton of sarcastic comments. You're making a mountain out of a mole hill my friend.
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Old 11-10-2015, 07:46 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plastroncafe View Post
And now you know exactly how I felt when Ciro went on his, "Girl characters get too powerful" tangent.

So given that, I'm not all that surprised by this kind of treatment of male characters as well.
That might have changed, though. Look at Mona Lisa.
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Old 11-10-2015, 07:48 PM   #11
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That might have changed, though. Look at Mona Lisa.
We needed a "bad girl" to take Karai's place while she's on the DL.
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So your wants and needs as a fan should outweigh everyone else's?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabacooza View Post
There's no sense catering just to one demographic which is idiotic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegita-San View Post
just ignore what you don't like rather than obsessing over it and move on with your life.
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Old 11-10-2015, 07:49 PM   #12
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We needed a "bad girl" to take Karai's place while she's on the DL.
What do you mean?
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Old 11-10-2015, 07:53 PM   #13
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What do you mean?
Which part? That Karai is on the DL?
She's not in the show, and likely won't be back until they return to Earth, which I'll wager won't be until the end of the season.

About Mona Lisa taking her place?
Ciro said that TMNT was full up with female characters, on account of the fact that they have a Good Girl (April) and a Bad Girl (Karai).

With Karai out of the picture there was a vacuum for a female character. Ta Da! Mona Lisa.

Any more than two and they're apparently too difficult to write, because they get too powerful.
To bring this back to the thread topic:

This is what I think is happening to Raph.
He's too powerful, so he has to be brought down some. You'll know a character is strong when he beats up, or knocks down, Raph. Because Raph is "the physically strong" one.
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So your wants and needs as a fan should outweigh everyone else's?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabacooza View Post
There's no sense catering just to one demographic which is idiotic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegita-San View Post
just ignore what you don't like rather than obsessing over it and move on with your life.
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Old 11-11-2015, 01:38 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by plastroncafe View Post
Which part? That Karai is on the DL?
She's not in the show, and likely won't be back until they return to Earth, which I'll wager won't be until the end of the season.

About Mona Lisa taking her place?
Ciro said that TMNT was full up with female characters, on account of the fact that they have a Good Girl (April) and a Bad Girl (Karai).

With Karai out of the picture there was a vacuum for a female character. Ta Da! Mona Lisa.

Any more than two and they're apparently too difficult to write, because they get too powerful.
To bring this back to the thread topic:

This is what I think is happening to Raph.
He's too powerful, so he has to be brought down some. You'll know a character is strong when he beats up, or knocks down, Raph. Because Raph is "the physically strong" one.
Mona Lisa abides by a code of honor and loves Raph out of mutual respect for him as a fighter, so I don't think she's libel to take Karai's place. Though there is the character Gwendoline Yeo is playing (don't know who yet) who is supposed to walk the line between good and evil, and then there is Valaxena.
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Old 11-11-2015, 09:15 AM   #15
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Personally, I feel the issue with Raphael is a general criticism for the show overall.

I think it just points out the issue overall with the series: Tone.

The tone is very much all over the place. For every step forward the show makes, it also then takes two steps back and it usually is tied to this very issue.The tone of the cahracters, the one of what they are trying to do... (either you're a drama, or a comedy or a dramedy. You can't be all three!)

The transition into last season into this season is a good example.

The season ended with
Spoiler:
The death of Splinter and the Mutanimals, April's Dad, the Shredder and well, THE EARTH!!
lending it to be more of a dramedy (which I dig), but then despite showing them feel 1 second of sadness the group seem to cheer and forget that everyone died because Space is cool. Cowabunga..? My fiance who watches with me was like "Why are they so cheerful?
Spoiler:
Everyone they knew and loved just pretty much died.
They'll have to fix that, right? Right?" <insert my rants on how they could fix it using previously created TMNT mythos things from the Fred Wolf to Archie Series.>

And then this season, it starts glum again only to realize....
Spoiler:
Hey! Time Travel! W00t.
But now we're on a race against time to
Spoiler:
stop the Triceratons from arriving on Earth and destroying it, even though I am guessing they are the cause of their own destiny unless they somehow inject the Turnstone or something.... to undo it!
yet the episodes so far have been seemingly half-baked ways to justify putting old action figure characters into the show. Wrym, anyone? We're just killing time it feels like. And Mona Lisa, is a good example of the Raph angle. This should have been drawn out another episode or two. Oi.

Overall, I keep telling myself that this is not my TMNT show. It has fun stuff for me, but it is really for the new ADD-riddled generation of kids that consume this stuff. And it helps me be okay with it. (Though it doesn't stop me from ranting sometimes.)
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Old 11-11-2015, 09:30 AM   #16
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This is my 2nd favorite version of Raph.
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Old 11-11-2015, 09:31 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by goodbadgeeky View Post
The tone is very much all over the place. For every step forward the show makes, it also then takes two steps back and it usually is tied to this very issue.The tone of the cahracters, the one of what they are trying to do... (either you're a drama, or a comedy or a dramedy. You can't be all three!)

The season ended with
Spoiler:
The death of Splinter and the Mutanimals, April's Dad, the Shredder and well, THE EARTH!!
lending it to be more of a dramedy (which I dig), but then despite showing them feel 1 second of sadness the group seem to cheer and forget that everyone died because Space is cool. Cowabunga..? My fiance who watches with me was like "Why are they so cheerful?
Well could you not just call it a dramedy then? Nearly every episode has some drama and comedy. Dramedy seems to cover it. A dramedy is a comedy and a drama. That's one genre, not three. You wouldn't call something a dramedy, comedy and drama since dramedy is a combination of two genres.

In the season 2 finale they weren't happy at the end. The only person who seemed to be happy was Casey. No one else made any comment or expression that would imply they're happy. Leo definitely didn't seem happy.

As to this thread, there's already a thread with pages and pages of ranting that covers this. I don't feel that there's any need for a rehash of the same stuff.
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Old 11-11-2015, 10:26 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victory_angel View Post
Mona Lisa abides by a code of honor and loves Raph out of mutual respect for him as a fighter, so I don't think she's libel to take Karai's place. Though there is the character Gwendoline Yeo is playing (don't know who yet) who is supposed to walk the line between good and evil, and then there is Valaxena.
The fact remains that the show runner has clearly stated the show can only have two female characters at any given time, because otherwise they get too powerful and difficult to write for.

So it's kind of no wonder that the characterizations of the male characters suffer as well.
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So your wants and needs as a fan should outweigh everyone else's?
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There's no sense catering just to one demographic which is idiotic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegita-San View Post
just ignore what you don't like rather than obsessing over it and move on with your life.
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Old 11-11-2015, 11:40 AM   #19
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When was that ever said?
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Old 11-11-2015, 11:49 AM   #20
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The Shell Shocked Podcast, which you can listen to here: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...584706376?mt=2

But here's a transcript of some of it:
https://nymonsters.wordpress.com/201...t-open-thread/
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There's no sense catering just to one demographic which is idiotic.
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just ignore what you don't like rather than obsessing over it and move on with your life.
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