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Old 12-24-2019, 05:00 PM   #81
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Is the moderator provoking conflict and ban baiting people?
Because it is certainly looks like it.
I think it's kind of like the scene in the movies where the cop puts his gun and badge down and says "Let's do this! I'm not a cop right now!" and fights the guy.
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Old 12-24-2019, 05:24 PM   #82
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I've always been interested in debate and argument. It's rare to meet people, especially on the internet, who will talk about their beliefs and perceptions calmly. Now that I've found a couple of people who see the world differently, I'm happy to have a conversation with you. All I ask is straightforward answers. I hope I'm giving those, but it's notoriously difficult to sense satire, sarcasm, or context over text. That's kind of how I communicate.

My point is: if you have reasons for supporting the guy, tell me. I'm well aware of and totally understand the hate for the Clintons. I understand the distaste for the rest of the Democratic base. And I feel your pain with the whole "white man bad" narrative that's been playing on loop now.

What I don't understand is the support for Trump. There are so many other political figures that would be so much better at representing the interests I'm sensing here. The guy has no redeeming qualities at all. We're gaining nothing under him. None of us. Most of the issues he's campaigned on has been neglected, subverted, or abandoned. The victories he's put up are arguably hollow. Kim is threatening nuclear Christmas. Erdogan is bearing down on our former Kurdish allies. And those are things that are happening right now. There's a laundry list of things that hard line, America first conservatives would lose their mind over that Trump has either let slide or condoned.

I just don't understand why he gets the support. Why not Pence? Kasich? Someone who could actually move the government wheels and get some things done?
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Old 12-24-2019, 07:42 PM   #83
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Voltron is one of the very few people to reach out to me personally when I was obviously in a bad place, so I feel obligated to point out that regardless of the fact that we disagree politically almost 100%, dude's a decent human being.

I feel like it needs to be said.
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Old 12-24-2019, 11:58 PM   #84
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Old 12-25-2019, 12:19 AM   #85
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Voltron is one of the very few people to reach out to me personally when I was obviously in a bad place, so I feel obligated to point out that regardless of the fact that we disagree politically almost 100%, dude's a decent human being.

I feel like it needs to be said.
not saying he's a bad person.. just that he's behaving irrationally about some stuff. and not seeing that he is.

for example..You don't goad someone into 'getting in the last word'..and then getting upset when they do. by editing their post and closing down the thread so they can't get it edited back.

stuff like that just shows internet instability. and juvenile behavior.
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Old 12-25-2019, 12:54 AM   #86
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not saying he's a bad person.. just that he's behaving irrationally about some stuff. and not seeing that he is.

for example..You don't goad someone into 'getting in the last word'..and then getting upset when they do. by editing their post and closing down the thread so they can't get it edited back.

stuff like that just shows internet instability. and juvenile behavior.
To his credit, Voltron stopped doing that when I called him out about it last time.

I have a reply to that last post but calories must be burnt tonight wrapping presents.
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Old 12-26-2019, 06:42 AM   #87
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Guilty as charged. And I apologize for my lack of self control. It was wrong of me to do it.

If you want to level more complaints about me, feel free. Leadership should be questioned and held to a higher standard. However, it would be better to either do it through PM or in another thread.

This thread should focus primarily on the impeachment. And I still want to know: for those who support this man, why? What is he offering that no one else can?
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Old 12-26-2019, 12:06 PM   #88
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for those who support this man, why? What is he offering that no one else can?
I don't really identify as a "Trump supporter" (again, he's not a nice guy) as much as I have just no problem with him whatsoever -- well, a couple of things I take issue with -- and nobody else on the playing field looks even a tiny bit "better" than him.

* He's hard on illegal immigration. This is a great thing. But not as hard as people have it in their heads. He shut down the "catch and release" policy from before, that's all. So now there's more people in holding facilities because we're not merely trusting people to enter the country and make their court date, even though 95% of the time they never do. The imagery of "kids in cages" (and not surprisingly, many of the images floating around that tugged on people's heartstrings actually came from the time of the Obama administration) and whatnot really has nothing to do with him and speaks more to the parents that subjected the kids to such things.

* He's good about the 2nd Amendment, but fair. No pushes for crazy gun control after every shooting, as Obama tried to do. He acquiesced in banning bump stocks, which is fair. Bump stocks are a way to circumvent the banning of automatic weapons (which I think most people can agree is reasonable), so it makes sense to eliminate them.

* He doesn't buy into the PC/#metoo/"there are more genders! This warrants further studies/discussion/free time squandered!"/etc. movement. This is great.

* The economy is booming. My 401k has never been higher, or gone as high as fast. This makes me very happy. Also, the stock market has never been in better shape.

* He's against the Obamacare model and right away destroyed the individual mandate. Fantastic. I know more than a few people doing perpetual temp kind of work devastated by the yearly penalty for not carrying a policy.

* I'm not going to say he's working any miracles in North Korea, but everybody on the left went from saying ad nausem, "He's going to start a nuclear war with North Korea and we're all going to DIIIIIEEEE!!!" to sort of not-so-quietly picking apart/poking fun every meeting between him and Kim. Yeah, good form, people. Point is, he's made more headway there than anybody else in 20+ years. Somehow expectations on the left/the loud left media went from "OMG, Trump is going to start WWIII with North Korea!" to "OMG, Trump is a total fu** up because North Korea isn't completely disarmed yet as of noon today!" C'mon.

* He's hard on China. We need to be. They say other countries are laughing at us? Well, China absolutely has been laughing at us... and for many years and they've been absolutely right to. They've exploited our economy and taken advantage of us on trade for quite some time. The people paying the price have been farmers, business and even communities on a real estate level. And so far it seems like the "trade war" (it's not a trade war) has been paying off.

* On the level of the UN and NATO, he's all about countries paying in their fair share, not just the US footing the bill. Apparently this makes foreign leaders not like him... and we're supposed to care somehow? I don't see why we should be bothered by this in the slightest.

He largely speechifies off the cuff. Often times it's very rough, sometimes doesn't even make sense, and maybe even once in a while can be offensive. But you have to respect it because he's largely not walking into these things with pre-written speeches by professional speechwriters. Wouldn't you rather hear what's what direct than what some random writer somewhere wrote that was determined a day or two ago would be what you would like to hear? Maybe it just comes down to personal preferance. Some people just want the president to be Presidential™ even if that means the guy is just standing there being fake. I'd way rather have an asshole president saying the wrong things but making the right decisions than a buttoned-down polished politician president saying the right things but making crazy decisions.

On the negative side, I don't agree with his stance on abortion at all but, #1: he doesn't actively believe in going after it (his time on Howard Stern ages ago strongly indicates he's all for abortion and he's just playing to his constituents right now), #2: he isn't ACTUALLY going after it, actively, #3: I'm not a woman so it doesn't really effect me personally. Not to be a douche. But it's kind of like... you know, the people that don't own guns that are very opinionated about gun rights? Kind of the same thing.

No, I don't care that he says dumb things sometimes/often/regularly. No, I don't sit at home questioning "But what is in Trump's HEART?!!" Because I don't care. I care about results, the making of the tough and right calls. People sometimes complain about, "But he can't work bi-partisanly to pass legislature!! He's a poor leader because of this!!" (though it sounds like the Democrats are letting his USMCA through just to show that they're capable of doing something other than almost impeaching) but it's kind of like... eh, what new legislature do you want him to pass that isn't crazy, exactly? Can you name some things? I can't think of much. I think we're largely good. For me, I think if all Trump ever does is just sit in office and block all the crazy new legislature from the left for the next 5 years, I'm cool with that.

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Old 12-26-2019, 12:25 PM   #89
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I don't really identify as a "Trump supporter" (again, he's not a nice guy) as much as I have just no problem with him whatsoever -- well, a couple of things I take issue with -- and nobody else on the playing field looks even a tiny bit "better" than him.


For me, I think if all Trump ever does is just sit in office and block all the crazy new legislature from the left for the next 5 years, I'm cool with that.


Pretty much the first paragraph and the last sentence. the sad part is, no one in the last election looked even remotely better than him. and the last time I thought someone could be different from the average politician, Obama might have been it......and we all see how that turned out.

at this point, they are all the same. at least trump doesn't have a filter. you get everything right off the cuff.
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Old 12-26-2019, 04:35 PM   #90
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Those are excellent points. Thanks for not mincing words or using "what about" tactics to muddy the waters.

The topic of the thread, though: Trump's impeachment.

Impeachment is rare, and so the terms of what can lead to an impeachment are a bit vague.

However, it has been established by Trump's own hand-picked representatives that Trump was involved in at least two instances of illegal activities.

1.Misuse of Campaign Funds

This is kind of a deep one, since there's more than one instance of it. Below are just two examples that popped up.

1-A. He's been found guilty and ordered to pay $2 million for misusing charity money for his own campaign. This isn't the first time he's stolen from charity, either.

1-B. Paying off Stormy Daniels and and Karen McDougal. Obviously, this seems like a big eye-roll and arguably on par with the Clinton impeachment. But they are legitimate legal issues and are both crimes that could lead to impeachment. This one came from Michael Cohen, Trump's personal lawyer.

2. The Ukraine Scandal

This is the big one, and the thing that really shocked me was that Sondland, again a handpicked Trump appointee, testified that there Trump was abusing his power as POTUS to better his chances in the 2020 election.

There are a LOT more things he's done that can be included here. I chose these because of the sources from which they stem.

Now, whatever we choose to believe about Trump's innocence, the fact remains: there's been serious accusations from members of Trump's close associates. Legally, this is enough to prosecute.

Impeachment is an investigation, not a punishment. However, a few of the posts in this thread seem to suggest that impeachment is not warranted here. In other words, that Trump's conduct does not warrant a closer look by Congress. Legally, what Congress has is pretty compelling.

Do you believe that a comprehensive investigation into Trump's conduct should not be conducted?

If so, at what point would would you support impeachment?
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Old 12-26-2019, 04:55 PM   #91
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Can someone explain to me how they're going to fit Trump in a peach?? He's way too big
Well he's already been greased up with orange so he will slide right in!

nyuk nyuk!
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Old 12-26-2019, 05:35 PM   #92
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My point is: if you have reasons for supporting the guy, tell me.
I support the guy because I believe that there was a complete discontiguity between the previous attempts at expansionism branded as globalism, and a lost sense of nationalism that was damaging the country as a whole.

When you combine this with my belief system that the people govern themselves, that the people can turn to and rely on free market solutions to things like healthcare (if you say we haven't then you're wrong but I'll touch on expertise below), and that social justice is not the great struggle of our time, it was clear to me that Trump had the right mix of ideas and steadfastness to realign the country to it's correct global position in a variety of ways. And he did.

Then, my support was enhanced by the fact that it became apparent to me that a significant number of people that we identify as being "on the left" were relying on a false narrative to enhance their position, and that "shame" and "guilt tripping" were being weaponized against anyone who was not educated enough to see it. I am galvanized immediately against manipulation and ********. Manipulation and ******** was and still is the platform of the Democratic party.

I could support all of these positions with greater detail; and in many ways made use of this understanding when I wrote my Masters thesis in public administration (I'll clearly argue my credibility through "directionality" below). When Clinton came around for the election, many of her followers supported her in earnest, yet did so completely unaware of her verifiable background in using public manipulation techniques such as shaming and false narrative as a means to an end. Clinton's greatest mentor in college quite literally wrote a book on political tactics using shaming as manipulation. Social justice is not the great battle of our time. Every instance of it is inflated by the left as a rallying cry, but when they use it they are calling you dumb.

Then the Dems argue the Healthcare system The healthcare system can always be enhanced through a continuous improvement and met-needs system in capitalism. But the Dems ignore this because their argument stis up a voter sample that is politically uninvolved until being presented with handout fixes stir them up. We politely call this socialism. But the free market already has created solutions, but you won't hear about that on CNN or by reading the posts of a liberal internet arguer because they don't even know it. Here's an example of this from an actual experience. I had an inmate tell me once that "Democrats are for 'the people', you know the regular guy, like me [inmate], and Republicans are for the rich guys". This inmate was COMPLETELY UNINFORMED but out operating in society as if he was. And then later he was operating in prison as if he was.

But if I did have any wisdom to give here, then I want to give anyone that cares "the keys to the Corvette" that many, many, many people don't use. It's directionality. See, there are a lot of people who just galvanize on something and then support it without background or real wisdom, but somewhere along the way they just learned to argue, so they fake it instead.
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I've always been interested in debate and argument.
But that cross section isn't informed. That cross section heard something they identified with on some level and combined it with a relentless sense of argument. But when you are an informed reader you can identify the ******** right away in a way that the relentless arguer cannot. And that brings me to directionality....

In my experience most liberals are only as informed as whatever piece of information catalyzed their emotional state. They have heard some material thing that they like about leftism, or something appeals to their sense of anger about life and they grab on to it. Their directionality is misaligned - they chose an ideology based on a perceived argument rather than the ideology itself. What is directionality? Bad directionality is hearing your perceived battle cry and then following that direction to your subscription of thought. The wrong thing came first. Instead, learn about the key tenets behind the varying belief systems, then choose the direction of your belief system. Then everything else that follows falls into place like a good game of Tetris instead of just trying to make your argument fit on that last line before the screen closes on you.

After actually studying the workings of our system, after actually understanding the tenets of each party, after actually working with the public ranging from inmates to people asking me for food stamps, to municipal requests, after actually operating a small business; I find through that experience that being a Democrat is something that the "street politician" either grows out of with age, or holds on to because he feels like he'll be on the bottom forever and drink the kool-aid that Democratic party arguments will take care of him forever. If you are fighting with the social-justice-brigade (Democrats) or the identity-politics-platoon, then you are being manipulated as a fool. Instead, the party that enhances your desire to make it on your own through your choice via minimized government interference while also supporting the nation's security (Republican) is the one more closely tied to the tenets of the Constitution. But instead the leftists greatest arguments revolve around how diverse the cast of a movie is, which they will argue relentlessly instead of you know.... actually going out and opening up a business that appears to everyone.

So if anyone here is actually interested in learning how to join the actually informed political discussion, then the framework I outilned above is how you start. Learn the tenets of the parties before you claim the party as your tool of argument. This, as opposed to signaling that you are virtuous by way of being "always open to discussion" as long as you've judged that anyone you talk to is saying 'discussion things' to you. And when you do this, your argument won't be born of "hating Trump" for whatever phony reasons you have for your anti-Trump argument. Instead your argument will be born of metrics, results and matched ideology to what the Federal government should be doing in this Federalist system. You'll grow out of arguing social justice and identity politics as your means to hate a President.

Instead I say, just go be informed and the shape of your discussions will be so different that you'll know who you are talking to right away. Information centers well adjusted people or brings them right of center. Emotional appeals or virtue arguments, even if only one molecule accurate, brings the whole sample of emotional people to the left. When people are informed I've seen that they are centered or right of center; but I've rarely seen actually informed lead to liberalism. "Hating" Trump and arguing "feel politics" is the domain of the uninformed left. It's the easiest thing to grab on to when you don't actually understand the world around you. "When in doubt just assume 'hatred' is everywhere and you can be a champion against it" is the lonely leftist argument.
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Old 12-26-2019, 08:40 PM   #93
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Nothing kills a discussion faster than saying "Let me start off by emphasizing how right I am. . . "
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Old 12-26-2019, 09:04 PM   #94
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Nothing kills a discussion faster than saying "Let me start off by emphasizing how right I am. . . "
Well I figured after however many posts attempting reasonable conversation it got to the point where I had to basically hammer it home.
But you know..... if anything came out of this it's that we know that you don't find reason or positive responses in any tactic at all whatsoever, ranging from logic to nonsense jokes to experience that should be respected. Of course other than maybe when you are faking deference in an attempt to cultivate any public support by means of "willingness to talk to anyone who wants to talk". -eyeroll-

The conversation could have been had regardless. But your choice was to make the comment I quoted above. Also I didn't start off emphasizing anything but the answer to your question. Seems like someone is seeing what they want to see..... again. In any event, I've tried a myriad of styles with you.

Like I said above, just go be informed and the shape of your discussions will be so different that you'll know who you are talking to right away.
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Old 12-26-2019, 10:52 PM   #95
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That's nice.

You'd fail my class, but you'd get an A+ in confidence.
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Old 12-27-2019, 03:09 AM   #96
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The Senate is corrupt. They'll never convict Trump for his crimes
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Old 12-27-2019, 10:14 AM   #97
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1.Misuse of Campaign Funds
If anything was actionable in that, it'd be an article of impeachment. It's not. That they're not even talking about it anymore means it's a moot, dead duck.

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2. The Ukraine Scandal
Well, that's what they think their ticket is, isn't it? We'll see. It's up to the senate to determine if the "evidence" gathered warrants anything further.

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Do you believe that a comprehensive investigation into Trump's conduct should not be conducted?
They already did that. First with the Russia hoax and then with the Ukraine business -- and when they were satisfied with that, they put it to a vote (now they're saying "ummm... wait, we want to go back and work on other articles of impeachment"). They've never stopped investigating him, and it's like year 3 of it.

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If so, at what point would would you support impeachment?
When there's compelling evidence. Actual evidence. Not tabloid level, "you see, when you connect these dots to this, and this..." type of fare. As angry as the Democrats are at him, I'm pretty sure they'd be beyond delighted to fire cannons if they were to have anything actionable. They don't.

I'd flip it around and ask, at what point will you be satisfied that there has been enough investigation? Can we set a date? 3 years isn't enough (which is odd, no?), I guess... so 4, then? 5?

At a certain point you have to either admit there's either nothing there or you just really, really want to find something. Will something into existance, as if by sheer force of will.

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The Senate is corrupt. They'll never convict Trump for his crimes
It would help if they had evidence. "I felt like he meant..." and "Well, I actually didn't hear it firsthand myself but..." is not going to do it. To suggest that if this was to be something like a jury trial (it's not, of course, but if it was), considering even for a moment this "evidence" proves "beyond reasonable doubt" that Trump is guilt of what is alleged is... beyond laughable. It's hysterical. This whole (incomplete) impeachment is just an outlet for anger and hatred, even catharsis.
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Old 12-27-2019, 11:52 AM   #98
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The Senate is corrupt. They'll never convict Trump for his crimes
Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
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Old 12-27-2019, 01:04 PM   #99
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If anything was actionable in that, it'd be an article of impeachment. It's not. That they're not even talking about it anymore means it's a moot, dead duck.
One of the biggest problems on the left is that their "life's justice" often hinges on "guilty by accusation". So you see a lot of that in these conversations. Immediately guilty by accusation. "I don't think 'they'd' have said it if.....".

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That's nice.

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Old 12-27-2019, 01:23 PM   #100
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I'd flip it around and ask, at what point will you be satisfied that there has been enough investigation? Can we set a date? 3 years isn't enough (which is odd, no?), I guess... so 4, then? 5?


This whole (incomplete) impeachment is just an outlet for anger and hatred, even catharsis.
I'd be surprised if you got an answer to that. after asking our opinions on why we support or don't support him, the replies where 'this is why I think he needs to go for the tenth time' or 'you don't agree with me, so I'll just sum up your post in a one word sentence'...

your last sentence sums up pretty much anyone who seems to dislike trump. most of the time, 'just because'... when you make fun of someone for 3 years over the TINIEST of things.. it's very easy to just ignore it all.
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