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Old 03-09-2020, 05:32 PM   #61
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I'd say less "inflation" and more "Keeping up with the Joneses".

As other people have mentioned, most casual observers see the TMNT as a brand similar to DC and Marvel properties. And there's an unfortunate situation where people often mistakenly expect that a film like that has to be a "blockbuster", including a blockbuster budget. As Andrew has said, there's really no reason why a TMNT movie has to cost $200 million or so, other than, the studio feels like they have to market it as a "spectacle" on par with the latest Avengers flick - even though that's the total opposite of what a TMNT movie should be - and in turn they have to spend a fortune because it's simply what's expected. I mean, look at the stuff in the PD films, from the giant Hole In The Sky or whatever in the first movie and "Sky Tetris" with the pieces of the Technodrome in the second movie, and all the other pointless CGI crap they crammed in there just so they could market TMNT like a Marvel flick... and it didn't do any good because the scripts were trash. BUT, the writing was by far the thing the studio was the least concerned with.

In theory, a TMNT movie shouldn't be a gigantic, expensive CGI-fest full of giant super-hero set pieces. BUT, the concern is that nobody will turn out for a "smaller" picture, since box office numbers reinforce the theory that people only buy tickets to go see those gigantic blockbusters, and they wait for everything else to hit streaming. Thus, if they want to actually see a return on investment, they have to make a "big" movie even though that isn't what TMNT is about at all.

The whole "Gotta spend $500 million to make a billion" mindset in modern movie-making needs to die in a fire. It's ruining absolutely everything. BUT, the audience is culpable as well, to a point.
So true. And everytime I hear it, I must sing the praises of the Joker film for proving audiences will show up for a "smaller" comic book adaption.
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Old 03-09-2020, 05:38 PM   #62
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I still suspect that if you change the name from "Joker" to "Random Dude Has A Series Of Bad Days Until He Snaps", everyone stays home. The media telling everyone that the movie was definitely going to win an Oscar like four months before it came out sure didn't hurt, either. Everybody wants to be in on the ground floor of something "big", and all that.

But yeah, razzle-dazzle aside, in theory people will go see anything as long as it's marketed correctly. Sadly, the suits don't generally give people that much credit.
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Old 03-09-2020, 06:56 PM   #63
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And there's an unfortunate situation where people often mistakenly expect that a film like that has to be a "blockbuster", including a blockbuster budget. As Andrew has said, there's really no reason why a TMNT movie has to cost $200 million or so, other than, the studio feels like they have to market it as a "spectacle" on par with the latest Avengers flick - even though that's the total opposite of what a TMNT movie should be - and in turn they have to spend a fortune because it's simply what's expected.
My point is that the inflation costs are coming from paying everyone and everything too much money. All that money being splashed out is going to the wrong places because everybody is asking for more. Generally across the whole of Hollywood whether its TV or film way too much money is spent on stuff when it doesn't need it.

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Blame Disney/Marvel; they're the ones who made "A billion or Nothing" the status quo and ruined it for everyone else in the game.
You probably already know this but the more you investment the more you have to lose and I get the impression if they really fail one day with a movie for Disney the fall will be from a lot higher than most studios.

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The media telling everyone that the movie was definitely going to win an Oscar like four months before it came out sure didn't hurt, either. Everybody wants to be in on the ground floor of something "big", and all that.
From my experience the media were telling everybody to avoid it because it celebrated 'toxic masculinity'.
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Old 03-09-2020, 09:25 PM   #64
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You probably already know this but the more you investment the more you have to lose and I get the impression if they really fail one day with a movie for Disney the fall will be from a lot higher than most studios.
This is how a lot of huge companies are hanging on by a thread, but given their size it's imperceptible. But it's sort of like owning a handful of poorly allocated rentals. The mortgages are manageable all the way up until month 2 of problems getting the rent from two of your renters. Stretched too thin and now you are under water. With large organizations it's magnitudes bigger, although they have the ability to bury the money and stave it off for a while.
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Old 03-09-2020, 11:34 PM   #65
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Ok this made think of something.

I could be wrong. Maybe Direct Line was allowed to choose the design...but what if Nick actually did this on purpose to test reactions for an OT looking live action turtles?

I know other similar ads have been made (Progressive made a Sonic one that very briefly aired). I mean since they were approving the use in a commercial anyway maybe they said...make him look FW style so we can see if it gets any attention.

It’s a safe way to show a concept that’s not attached to anything concrete. Its not showing in the US but the way the Internet goes it obviously doesn’t need to.
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Old 03-09-2020, 11:58 PM   #66
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From my experience the media were telling everybody to avoid it because it celebrated 'toxic masculinity'.
I'd say the same. Most mainstream media did everything in its power to destroy this movie prior to release.
There were awards prior to release as well, but it's essentially beside the fact.

But yeah, point being, Joker's success at proving fans will show up to a character and story-driven comic adaption of a DC property, with no licensing deals or studio interference is a goddamn beautiful thing.
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Old 03-10-2020, 02:55 AM   #67
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To be fair TMNT can be many things. It can be grounded martial arts action in an urban setting but it can also be big space epics and big scale super hero-esque action.

There are many problems with Platinum Dunes handling of the franchise but I'm not sure you could fault them for going in the direction that all indications would work best. The problem is that I'm not sure they ever really understood what actually makes the current crop of superhero movies work or even had a budget for it. The whole bs of the Technodrome slowly assembling in pieces in Out Of The Shadows screamed that they didn't have the budget for a proper Technodrome battle.

I don't want to consider an R rated TMNT movie; it's just never going to happen and while I wouldn't say no to one unless you're doing an adaption of Bodycount little about Mirage couldn't be done in a PG 13 movie. Still, smaller scale ninja action in NYC is the way to go at very least for the first movie is a must when it is eventually rebooted.
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Old 03-10-2020, 09:46 AM   #68
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The more time goes on, the more I think the turtles would be better suited for a big-budget streaming series. Something on Netflix or HBO. Hell, even Scy-FY.

In the right hands, I'd love to see a big budget film series that is capable of leading us from The Foot to Triceratons and Dimension X, but I think that opportunity has been fumbled for now. Let's build the property back up with a gentle touch. It's probably time to bring TMNT into the homes/streaming devices of audiences, as opposed to begging them to come give you another chance on the big screen.
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Old 03-10-2020, 10:24 PM   #69
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To be fair TMNT can be many things. It can be grounded martial arts action in an urban setting but it can also be big space epics and big scale super hero-esque action.

There are many problems with Platinum Dunes handling of the franchise but I'm not sure you could fault them for going in the direction that all indications would work best. The problem is that I'm not sure they ever really understood what actually makes the current crop of superhero movies work or even had a budget for it. The whole bs of the Technodrome slowly assembling in pieces in Out Of The Shadows screamed that they didn't have the budget for a proper Technodrome battle.

I don't want to consider an R rated TMNT movie; it's just never going to happen and while I wouldn't say no to one unless you're doing an adaption of Bodycount little about Mirage couldn't be done in a PG 13 movie. Still, smaller scale ninja action in NYC is the way to go at very least for the first movie is a must when it is eventually rebooted.
I don't see an R rated TMNT movie happening unless it's done in an animated movie released on DVD. Especially if it's based off of Bodycount or anything Image. But as far as live action, a PG-13 Mirage styled movie with no influences of FW whatsoever is all I'd like to see. If not, a Netflix series.
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Old 03-11-2020, 09:27 PM   #70
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Old 03-14-2020, 05:21 AM   #71
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I don't see an R rated TMNT movie happening unless it's done in an animated movie released on DVD. Especially if it's based off of Bodycount or anything Image. But as far as live action, a PG-13 Mirage styled movie with no influences of FW whatsoever is all I'd like to see. If not, a Netflix series.
How big do you think the market is for this, though? A lot of people are familiar with the Turtles through the FW series. The other cartoons were pretty light-hearted as well.

Do you think enough people are familiar enough with the original, darker version that a company would be willing to shell out (I like puns) the cash for a series? Especially if Rise was a flop?

I'd love to see it done. I don't know if it's ever going to happen unless we start a gofundme and bankroll it ourselves.
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Old 03-14-2020, 04:44 PM   #72
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A halfway-decent fan-film is the absolute best we can ever hope for. Hollywood simply doesn't know how to distance itself from the cartoons.

The casual audience is a factor in that, certainly, but people aren't always as stupid as they're expected to be. Back in the pre-internet days, I can believe that few-to-no people who'd willingly drop coin on a TMNT movie would know what the original comics were like, but pretty much every single person has the internet now, and every single TMNT fan spends way too much of their free time online, if you follow the behavioral patterns of people who self-identify as "TMNT fans". And literally every single article I've seen about TMNT on ANY website whatsoever for the last ten years has had at least one mention of how the brand "began oddly enough as a much darker and more violent black & white independent comic", how there were no pizza jokes or "Cowabunga", etc. etc. So even people who maybe didn't know Then, certainly know Now, even if they've never read those books.

One would think/hope that, at the very least, they might be a little bit curious as to how that would play out in live-action, especially since the 1990 film is far and away the most popular film in the franchise to this day, and while it's definitely a hybrid, it borrows at least as much from Mirage as it does from the cartoons, and probably a little more so. Anyone who liked that movie - which is most fans - would probably like a more "purely" Mirage-based film at least as much if not even more. The trick would be in reminding them that they've already seen and enjoyed something that was a lot like the source material, they simply weren't aware of it at the time.

After all, the audience grew up (although not all of them mentally ); one would sincerely hope that they could find some appreciation for an angle on this thing they profess to "love" so much, which doesn't rely on bad pizza puns or Bebop and Rocksteady in order to hold their interest. Because if THAT's sincerely the stuff a person feels that is "necessary" for TMNT to remain interesting, well... it says a lot about them, that's all I can say. I'd like to think that most TMNT fans would have better taste than that.

Note, I said "I'd LIKE to think." You don't wanna know what I actually do think.
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Old 03-14-2020, 05:04 PM   #73
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A halfway-decent fan-film is the absolute best we can ever hope for. Hollywood simply doesn't know how to distance itself from the cartoons.

The casual audience is a factor in that, certainly, but people aren't always as stupid as they're expected to be. Back in the pre-internet days, I can believe that few-to-no people who'd willingly drop coin on a TMNT movie would know what the original comics were like, but pretty much every single person has the internet now, and every single TMNT fan spends way too much of their free time online, if you follow the behavioral patterns of people who self-identify as "TMNT fans". And literally every single article I've seen about TMNT on ANY website whatsoever for the last ten years has had at least one mention of how the brand "began oddly enough as a much darker and more violent black & white independent comic", how there were no pizza jokes or "Cowabunga", etc. etc. So even people who maybe didn't know Then, certainly know Now, even if they've never read those books.

One would think/hope that, at the very least, they might be a little bit curious as to how that would play out in live-action, especially since the 1990 film is far and away the most popular film in the franchise to this day, and while it's definitely a hybrid, it borrows at least as much from Mirage as it does from the cartoons, and probably a little more so. Anyone who liked that movie - which is most fans - would probably like a more "purely" Mirage-based film at least as much if not even more. The trick would be in reminding them that they've already seen and enjoyed something that was a lot like the source material, they simply weren't aware of it at the time.

After all, the audience grew up (although not all of them mentally ); one would sincerely hope that they could find some appreciation for an angle on this thing they profess to "love" so much, which doesn't rely on bad pizza puns or Bebop and Rocksteady in order to hold their interest. Because if THAT's sincerely the stuff a person feels that is "necessary" for TMNT to remain interesting, well... it says a lot about them, that's all I can say. I'd like to think that most TMNT fans would have better taste than that.

Note, I said "I'd LIKE to think." You don't wanna know what I actually do think.
I mean the Bay movies are the perfect example. The first one was a horrible movie with horrible designs and the dumbasses that be decided int only failed cause it wasn't like the cartoon. The trailer for the sequel literally said 'we got pizza, cowabunga, bebop and rocksteady, what else do you need?'.

Then that failed and rather than thinking about trying to stick closer to the older comics and have the turtles look like themselves, they just shrugged and said 'I guess people don't like ninja turtles' and quit.
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Old 03-14-2020, 07:09 PM   #74
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As far as I've heard it, that's exactly what happened. Which is a real f*cking shame.

I completely agree with the side of the fandom who says, in essence, "A pure, straight-up Mirage adaptation is the ONE thing they haven't tried, yet," because that's technically accurate. And I think - or hope - that such a movie might actually do pretty well, simply by way of being of quality but also because it would indeed be so different from what's familiar and expected from this franchise.

BUT, maybe it wouldn't actually do well. In recent years, we've seen "straight" comic book adaptations get a mediocre response, while ones that completely eschew and abandon the source material, like "Thor: Ragnarok", are overwhelmingly successful (I know I harp on that movie a lot, but it's a perfect example of a highly-successful comic book film that has NOTHING to do with its source material and nobody caring because it was "Fun"). So when a studio like Marvel keeps making more and more money by saying, essentially, "F*ck the source material, let's just Go For Goofy", and it works every time they do it... well, other studios may as well try and play the same tune. Believe me, stuff like "Guardians of the Galaxy" had a LOT to do with what the last two TMNT movies turned into, whether people see the connection or not. That's The Business.

BUT, that's why I say the only hope anyone has for a GOOD TMNT movie is a fan-film. They're done for pure love and not profit; a profit-minded TMNT film simply isn't in a position to take chances or risks, they HAVE to copy whatever Disney is doing because those are the only movies making money right now. A TMNT movie might not need to cost $200 million, but it would definitely have to be expensive, and if you're in a position of needing to make that money BACK, well... you're then forced to put a lot of really dumb sh*t in your movie no matter how pure your original intentions are (I do honestly believe the people at PD when they claim their original idea was NOT for what became BayTurtles Part 1; sadly, they never had a hope in hell of seeing that vision coming true, and they found that out the hard way).

Meanwhile, people make fan films knowing full well that it's all a lark and the only goal is to honor the subject(s) as reverently as possible. They spend money knowing they won't get it back, and they don't care. That's the only attitude that can possibly produce a GOOD movie about TMNT, even if it looks "cheap". Once you start talking about toy concepts and selling Slurpee cups in China, you've already f*cked everything up. And those things are part of the discussion way, WAY before a movie's script is even begun, which is why most movies are f*cking terrible.

There's just so much working against a "real" TMNT movie ever being any good. I don't think Hollywood can do it. Their values are not ours, that's the simplest way I can put it.
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Old 03-14-2020, 09:07 PM   #75
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How big do you think the market is for this, though? A lot of people are familiar with the Turtles through the FW series. The other cartoons were pretty light-hearted as well.

Do you think enough people are familiar enough with the original, darker version that a company would be willing to shell out (I like puns) the cash for a series? Especially if Rise was a flop?

I'd love to see it done. I don't know if it's ever going to happen unless we start a gofundme and bankroll it ourselves.
And yet those same people watched the original film which was closer to the original comics than the FW cartoon. And at this point, there are more than enough people that are at least aware that TMNT started as a comic book series.

Moreover, Batman 89 was entirely different from the Adam West tv show which at the time was what people associated Batman with.

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Old 03-24-2020, 02:50 PM   #76
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This is how a lot of huge companies are hanging on by a thread, but given their size it's imperceptible. But it's sort of like owning a handful of poorly allocated rentals. The mortgages are manageable all the way up until month 2 of problems getting the rent from two of your renters. Stretched too thin and now you are under water. With large organizations it's magnitudes bigger, although they have the ability to bury the money and stave it off for a while.
I didn't even consider your last sentence but yeah I agree with everything you said.

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But yeah, point being, Joker's success at proving fans will show up to a character and story-driven comic adaption of a DC property, with no licensing deals or studio interference is a goddamn beautiful thing.
Indeed it is.

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And yet those same people watched the original film which was closer to the original comics than the FW cartoon. And at this point, there are more than enough people that are at least aware that TMNT started as a comic book series.
I will point out however the 1990 movie had the benefit of being released at the height of TMNT popularity.

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The whole bs of the Technodrome slowly assembling in pieces in Out Of The Shadows screamed that they didn't have the budget for a proper Technodrome battle.
I know. I felt like I was watching a Lego movie (not that I have an issue with those movies but you get the point).
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