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Old 01-13-2019, 07:26 PM   #21
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I enjoyed both Leonardo and Donatello in this version more than I did my preferred duo. Mike and Raph were best in the 1987 cartoon, but Leo and Don were best portrayed in the 2003 cartoon.
Mike and Raph only got more annoying as the series went on, I'm afraid.

Mike became unbearable after winning the Battle Nexus tournament, in particular. A tournament that he only won by sheer luck, pretty much. The way he defeated Raph made Raph look like an idiot, then Splinter forfeited the match to him and the way Mike beat the final opponent was by sheer luck/accident. It was ridiculous. So what gave him the right to be so arrogant? He must have been the worst BN champion ever, without exaggeration.

As for Raph, I can't exactly precise a moment where he became more annoying, but he was also more tolerable in the first 2 seasons.

This was one of my gripes with this series. The lessons the Turtles learned early on in the series ended up being forgotten rather quickly, and the character development never really happened for most of them except maybe for Leonardo. Leo was clearly the favourite Turtle of the script writers. On one hand it makes sense, because he's the leader. I'm fine with him being the most competent fighter, and I think he's much better in this show than he was in FW. But he did get a bit too much screen time and the favouritism towards him showed. I understand how fun it can be to write for a favourite character of yours. In TMNT stories and fanfics I write I notice I tend to not give Mikey many lines compared to the rest of the bunch, but again I'm no pro nor do I get paid to write for stuff that airs on TV.

As for which show was more popular, I have NO DATA to prove my arguments whatsoever, so take this with a grain of salt. It's merely MY IMPRESSION that 2012 seems to have been more popular than 2k3 due to better promotion alone. Also the time it came out favoured it as well. it came out at a time where nostalgia and demand for reboots was higher than ever and social media kept growing on a daily basis. Plus, Viacom/Nick are bigger than 4Kids. I noticed most people, or at least a lot of people, were aware that the 2012 cartoon series existed. But TONS have no clue to this day that the 2k3 series was a thing. And I'm not the only one who has had such experiences. Most personal anecdotes I see on these forums when it comes to this particular subject are very consistent. So, this leads me to believe that it's truly the case that 2012 was more popular than 2k3.

No idea about TV ratings, but remember online streaming services were not a thing back in 2002-2009 yet and many people still watched their stuff on TV. So TV ratings alone don't mean much. Perhaps toy sales would be a better indicator? Did the 2012 toyline sell better than the 2k3 toyline overall? Plus, surely those few FW action figures they re-released also sold rather well due to nostalgia effect, no? Oh, and the Bay movies, for better or for worse, were WAY more talked about than the 2007 movie was. The 2007 movie was a small blip in the radar in comparison to those movies or the original trilogy. It's the TMNT movie that no one remembers outside of the more hardcore Turtles fans.
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Old 01-13-2019, 07:41 PM   #22
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Mike and Raph only got more annoying as the series went on, I'm afraid.

Mike became unbearable after winning the Battle Nexus tournament, in particular. A tournament that he only won by sheer luck, pretty much. The way he defeated Raph made Raph look like an idiot, then Splinter forfeited the match to him and the way Mike beat the final opponent was by sheer luck/accident. It was ridiculous. So what gave him the right to be so arrogant? He must have been the worst BN champion ever, without exaggeration.

As for Raph, I can't exactly precise a moment where he became more annoying, but he was also more tolerable in the first 2 seasons.

This was one of my gripes with this series. The lessons the Turtles learned early on in the series ended up being forgotten rather quickly, and the character development never really happened for most of them except maybe for Leonardo. Leo was clearly the favourite Turtle of the script writers. On one hand it makes sense, because he's the leader. I'm fine with him being the most competent fighter, and I think he's much better in this show than he was in FW. But he did get a bit too much screen time and the favouritism towards him showed. I understand how fun it can be to write for a favourite character of yours. In TMNT stories and fanfics I write I notice I tend to not give Mikey many lines compared to the rest of the bunch, but again I'm no pro nor do I get paid to write for stuff that airs on TV.

As for which show was more popular, I have NO DATA to prove my arguments whatsoever, so take this with a grain of salt. It's merely MY IMPRESSION that 2012 seems to have been more popular than 2k3 due to better promotion alone. Also the time it came out favoured it as well. it came out at a time where nostalgia and demand for reboots was higher than ever and social media kept growing on a daily basis. Plus, Viacom/Nick are bigger than 4Kids. I noticed most people, or at least a lot of people, were aware that the 2012 cartoon series existed. But TONS have no clue to this day that the 2k3 series was a thing. And I'm not the only one who has had such experiences. Most personal anecdotes I see on these forums when it comes to this particular subject are very consistent. So, this leads me to believe that it's truly the case that 2012 was more popular than 2k3.

No idea about TV ratings, but remember online streaming services were not a thing back in 2002-2009 yet and many people still watched their stuff on TV. So TV ratings alone don't mean much. Perhaps toy sales would be a better indicator? Did the 2012 toyline sell better than the 2k3 toyline overall? Plus, surely those few FW action figures they re-released also sold rather well due to nostalgia effect, no? Oh, and the Bay movies, for better or for worse, were WAY more talked about than the 2007 movie was. The 2007 movie was a small blip in the radar in comparison to those movies or the original trilogy. It's the TMNT movie that no one remembers outside of the more hardcore Turtles fans.
You arw preaching to the choir and sharing about ever letter of tbought of my own. I do add that I blame Peter Laird not understanding David Wise writing of Michelangelo and dumping all humor on him because "it did not fit Laird's interpretation of the others". Spot on with Raphael 2003 as to what you said, I agree completely.
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Old 01-13-2019, 07:52 PM   #23
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You arw preaching to the choir and sharing about ever letter of tbought of my own. I do add that I blame Peter Laird not understanding David Wise writing of Michelangelo and dumping all humor on him because "it did not fit Laird's interpretation of the others". Spot on with Raphael 2003 as to what you said, I agree completely.
Well, they do say great minds think alike

Tbh Michelangelo becoming the comedy guy and the most appealing Turtle to the kids was something inevitable once the deal for a kid friendly TMNT cartoon was made in the 80s. Leonardo was the leader, Raphael was the anti-social and temperamental guy and Donatello was the engineer/scientist of the group. By even just reading early Mirage issues one can clearly see that. So the "mascot role" would naturally fall on Michelangelo, I guess. Although Mike in FW was not nearly as annoying as he was in the 2k3 series. For one thing they let Raph make the gags with Rob Paulsen being a spot on cast pick for the role.

But yes, Michelangelo is the most flanderised Turtle of the group in history.
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Old 01-13-2019, 07:57 PM   #24
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Prowler raises a good point about social media being a huge variable. I see something about TMNT - usually "Rise" at the moment - almost every single time I go on Facebook. If it's not the TMNT page, it's some vintage or retro store trying to sell me a shirt. It doesn't matter if you like the current product or not; if you have social media, and have ever so much as said "I like turtles", you're gonna get a bunch of TMNT stuff in your feed.

It's impossible to say how much or how little social media factors in, but it has to be a huge deal. Even if you hate the new shows, you can't ignore that they exist. By comparison, 4Kids may as well have been invisible.

I try not to dwell on it, because the 4Kids show is the only TMNT cartoon I can watch more than a few episodes of without a bucket or a bag, so it would be nice if it was more appreciated. But I'm used to it. My Dad pretty much set me straight once upon a time when I tried talking to him about wrestling. He said, "Y'know all that stuff you like? Nobody else cares, best keep it to yourself." Harsh, but true. Most things I enjoy are indeed scorned by the majority. So I'm not shocked that the only TMNT show I like is the one "nobody cares" about. I wish it were different, but eh.
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Old 01-13-2019, 08:16 PM   #25
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Prowler raises a good point about social media being a huge variable. I see something about TMNT - usually "Rise" at the moment - almost every single time I go on Facebook. If it's not the TMNT page, it's some vintage or retro store trying to sell me a shirt. It doesn't matter if you like the current product or not; if you have social media, and have ever so much as said "I like turtles", you're gonna get a bunch of TMNT stuff in your feed.

It's impossible to say how much or how little social media factors in, but it has to be a huge deal. Even if you hate the new shows, you can't ignore that they exist. By comparison, 4Kids may as well have been invisible.

I try not to dwell on it, because the 4Kids show is the only TMNT cartoon I can watch more than a few episodes of without a bucket or a bag, so it would be nice if it was more appreciated. But I'm used to it. My Dad pretty much set me straight once upon a time when I tried talking to him about wrestling. He said, "Y'know all that stuff you like? Nobody else cares, best keep it to yourself." Harsh, but true. Most things I enjoy are indeed scorned by the majority. So I'm not shocked that the only TMNT show I like is the one "nobody cares" about. I wish it were different, but eh.
Yes, it does really seem like the 2k3 series came out a bit before its time. Back then the TMNT hiatus felt like an eternity, but as a kid ofc 6 years with no new episodes seem like an eternity.

The internet was still growing when this show debuted. in 2002-2003 a lot of people still had dial-up for crying out loud . And there was no youtube and the closest things to social networks were chatrooms and message boards like this one. Was MySpace even a thing at the time, yet?

And yes, sadly the 2k3 series got the "THIS AREN'T THE TURTLES I GREW UP WITH!" stigma eternally attached to it. It dared to distance itself from the FW elements that are socially acceptable as being mandatory when it comes to the Turtles. I remember being 12-14 years old and seeing some hatred for the show online of older teens and people aged 20-22 simply because "IT'S TOO DIFFERENT FROM THE ORIGINAL TOON!". The show had balls to try to appeal to both an older gen and to a new gen to introduce to the TMNT property, but I feel like most older fans absolutely rejected it and saw it as an insult to their childhoods. I'm gonna guess about 90% of 2k3 series fans are people who were either babies or not born yet when the FW series was near its end.

People who grew up with FW series and the first few movies, generally dislike 2k3, from my experience online and irl. My older brother being one of those people. He really disliked the 2k3 series and refused to even give it a chance. "Why don't they have pupils, are they blind or something?!". And when he walked in on me watching one of the episodes set in space he just said "To me Ninja Turtles should be set in New York only!"... as if they had NEVER gone to space in the 1987 cartoon series or anything, right?!
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:00 PM   #26
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Yeah, I've run into a few like that. Not just with TMNT, but everything. People tend to have a very narrow and myopic view of things they claim to be into. It's like with music; "I LOVE (band name)! But only the songs that sound exactly like the first side of the first record! Everything else sucks!". Big fans. Huge. Totally the ones who should be dictating taste.

As for 2K3, whenever I told anyone about it, they immediately asked about Krang, Bebop and Rocksteady, and got pissy upon hearing the bad news. Followed by declaration of how the show I know for a fact they haven't even glanced at since 1992 was "The BEST!" and "It's not even POSSIBLE to do it any better, why bother?"

Now, at holidays, they parade their kids around in Nick TMNT shirts and gush about watching the Nick cartoon together, and how it's "Just like the old one!" As far as THEY remember, I guess, but seriously. As a test, I'll generally say I liked the 2003 cartoon better, and without fail, they swear they don't even remember it existing.

I don't remind them about how they pissed and moaned about Krang and whatever and that's why they don't remember it, because I like to let them maintain some dignity. But it's still "interesting." I just file it away in my, "People are generally constantly full of sh*t" file.
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:01 PM   #27
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Yeah, I've run into a few like that. Not just with TMNT, but everything. People tend to have a very narrow and myopic view of things they claim to be into. It's like with music; "I LOVE (band name)! But only the songs that sound exactly like the first side of the first record! Everything else sucks!". Big fans. Huge. Totally the ones who should be dictating taste.

As for 2K3, whenever I told anyone about it, they immediately asked about Krang, Bebop and Rocksteady, and got pissy upon hearing the bad news. Followed by declaration of how the show I know for a fact they haven't even glanced at since 1992 was "The BEST!" and "It's not even POSSIBLE to do it any better, why bother?"

Now, at holidays, they parade their kids around in Nick TMNT shirts and gush about watching the Nick cartoon together, and how it's "Just like the old one!" As far as THEY remember, I guess, but seriously. As a test, I'll generally say I liked the 2003 cartoon better, and without fail, they swear they don't even remember it existing.

I don't remind them about how they pissed and moaned about Krang and whatever and that's why they don't remember it, because I like to let them maintain some dignity. But it's still "interesting." I just file it away in my, "People are generally constantly full of sh*t" file.
How many of them can accurately remember which Turtle is which? Give me a rough percentage estimate.
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:05 PM   #28
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Roughly 0%. They remember colors, and one of them being named "Mikey", but I don't count that as actually "knowing".

They describe the Nick show as being "Just like the old one!" (animation aside, obviously). Obviously something inside isn't getting a proper signal.
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:11 PM   #29
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Roughly 0%. They remember colors, and one of them being named "Mikey", but I don't count that as actually "knowing".

They describe the Nick show as being "Just like the old one!" (animation aside, obviously). Obviously something inside isn't getting a proper signal.
Tbh, I do notice a lot of people struggle at remembering which Turtle is which. Even my mother who watched TMNT times several times with me never really was good at keeping track which Turtle was which. She's like April in the 1st FW episode. Kept mixing them up .

As a little kid I never had any trouble after a couple of episodes, but I remember people making excuses for the constant animation erros in the series being attributed to the animators having trouble keeping track of which Turtle was which. So who knows.
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:18 PM   #30
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And yet these same people can name every starting quarterback for their favorite team going back to the year they were born, or every year the Yankees won the Series, or the entire cast of "Firefly", or whatever. Four color-coded characters is way too much to keep track of.

It's just about what's considered important. They just don't care, and never did.
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:20 PM   #31
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And yet these same people can name every starting quarterback for their favorite team going back to the year they were born, or every year the Yankees won the Series, or the entire cast of "Firefly", or whatever. Four color-coded characters is way too much to keep track of.

It's just about what's considered important. They just don't care, and never did.
This is one of the biggest rude awakening calls ever, man. Damn.
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:23 PM   #32
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Well seriously. "I can't remember which one is which! It's too complicated!"

There's FOUR of them. It's not complicated, they're idiots.

I haven't watched Scooby-Doo in like 30 years. Shaggy, Scooby, Daphne, Velma, and Fred. Wow, f*cking complicated.
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:29 PM   #33
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Well seriously. "I can't remember which one is which! It's too complicated!"

There's FOUR of them. It's not complicated, they're idiots.

I haven't watched Scooby-Doo in like 30 years. Shaggy, Scooby, Daphne, Velma, and Fred. Wow, f*cking complicated.
I wonder if there's a lot of people out there who can't tell which Sailor Moon Senshi is which anymore either.
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:31 PM   #34
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To be fair, I never knew that sh*t to start with.

Them dames sure had some stems, though.
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:39 PM   #35
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To be fair, I never knew that sh*t to start with.

Them dames sure had some stems, though.
But then again, you're not a fan nor have you ever watched it/read it. So that's understandable. I honestly couldn't tell you the names of the Fantastic Four members either except for The Thing. Because I've never read or watched anything with them in.

Back to Sailor Moon, the original series is a bit different from the manga. It kinda reminds me of Mirage and FW to some point. The Manga is less episodic and more serious, and the characters a re a bit more mature. while the anime is more goofy, episodic and Mars is a quite different character from the manga. Kinda like Raphael was in both Mirage and FW, but not really in the same way, mind you.

And now, back to the Turtles, I dunno why a few people defend red bandanas still. If some people have trouble telling the Turtles apart to this day with different coloured bandanas and different skin colour/tones, do you really think they'd be able to keep track of who is who if they kept red bandanas?
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:44 PM   #36
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Um... One of them is called "Mr. Fantastic". Unironically, I assume, but from over here...

Human Torch, Invisible Broad... They may be rather insipid and uninspired names, but they're not at all hard to remember. You're boshin' me.
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:51 PM   #37
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Um... One of them is called "Mr. Fantastic". Unironically, I assume, but from over here...

Human Torch, Invisible Broad... They may be rather insipid and uninspired names, but they're not at all hard to remember. You're boshin' me.
It's not that I can't memorise them. I've just never got to learn the names until now, except for the Thing. The Fantastic Four aren't something that has ever really caught my attention, so maybe that's why I overlooked it.

Also, apparently it's Invisible Woman, not Invisible Broad.

Boshin'? Well my vocabulary keeps getting richer, I guess.
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Old 01-13-2019, 10:01 PM   #38
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Broads is Dames and Dames is Broads. I didn't make the rules, pally! (Saunters off flipping a coin and chewing on a toothpick)

"Boshing" someone is a more polite way of saying "bullsh*tting" someone. Emilio Estevez reintroduced it into modern parlance in the immortal classic "Young Guns II".


The "Fantastic" 4, everybody!!!
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Old 01-13-2019, 10:07 PM   #39
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You do learn something new everyday, after all. Most popular sayings aren't exactly literal, but I've always found this one to be true for the most part. Unless you are in a coma or spend the whole day inside your house without opening a book, reading/watching/hearing the latest news or going online; you're bound to learn something new, even if it's not particularly useful or something you'll remember a few days later.

As for TMNT 2k3, well I've pretty much said everything already. If anyone else wants to add something feel free to and I might have something to say about it.
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Old 01-13-2019, 10:09 PM   #40
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Sure.



Nailed it.
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