Delayed Gratification

[Galactus]

To bring the turtles and Splinter to life in a new movie my preferred method would be go back to the animatronic suits and use cgi to animate the faces and correct for when the suits look visibly rubbery and for stunts etc. I know I'm not alone within TMNT fandom in thinking some variation of that is the best way to go. However I know that it's a long shot and realistically if/when a new TMNT movie series starts up again the studio will want to to go full motion capture cgi again because that's just the 'in' thing.

Regardless of whether it is a soft or hard reboot they are not going to use any variant of the pre-existing designs so like the first Platinum Dunes release the main bulk (of what I presume will be a lower budget) will be eaten up by creating entirely new 3D models. Practically this means we will be looking at another release were the human actors carry the majority of the movie.

While many fans including myself railed against the 2014 movie for waiting 17+ minutes to properly introduce the turtles but in hindsight I wonder is this such a bad thing?

In most versions it makes sense to lead with the turtles but a lot of modern comic book movies don't have the hero establish their identities right away. They set up the world and it's rules first and with TMNT they were taking an interesting idea of the April O'Neil investigating a new crime fighting force. Trying to make the turtles seem intimidating and mysterious is a good idea in my book and even helps sell the idea that these are ninjas.

Friends who I went to see the 2014 movie with who weren't TMNT fans thought the first part of the movie were trying to do something different and interesting with the turtles before the tone abruptly changed and we got Michelangelo farting in his brothers faces. I've seen some online reviews from people who likewise are not fans say similar things.

This failed in two ways though.

1. The build up to the turtles was still inconsistent. It's hard to sell a New York City which is being routinely terrorized by a paramilitary criminal gang when April is bouncing on little trampolines and no one seems all that concerned about them. I'm not saying the turtles NYC needs to be portrayed as crime ridden like Gotham City but the 1990 movie established the underlying threat of the Foot in their world, heck even the 1987 animated series did this in it's opening episode.

2. Megan Fox. This may sound harsh since she to be the target for a lot criticism that should be reserved for the film maker she is most associated with but we really need a better actress for April. True, we don't need an oscar winner to play the lead in a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie but if an actor is going to carry the movie and we're going to get a extended period of watching little but them then they need to be engaging.

So this is just some food for though in the likely event that in the next movie we may have to have plucky investigative journalist April O'Neil going all X-Files on the turtles in the first 20 minutes.

Of course just because it has to be led be human actors doesn't mean it has to be April. In fact this may be an opportunity to do the full Hamato Yoshi & Tang Shen murder story which we've never seen on the big screen before. Maybe it helps us better understand Splinter's motives but also Shredder's too. After all if Thanos can have understandable motives to wipe out 50% of life in the universe then we could finally get a version of the Shredder to does things for more than just being evil for evil's sake.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by Galactus

Practically this means we will be looking at another release were the human actors carry the majority of the movie.

Please no.

While many fans including myself railed against the 2014 movie for waiting 17+ minutes to properly introduce the turtles but in hindsight I wonder is this such a bad thing?

Yes. After a few viewings I just can't watch those portions anymore. Once you've seen it a few times those chunks of the film just get boring as hell, imo. Whether I've come across it on tv or the few times I've popped my disc in the player I always just skip forward, as well as other long non-Turtle portions.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Please no.

It surely has to happen.

The producers have said the reason for the turtles lack of screen time in the 2014 movie was that it ate up their cgi budget to simply come up with 3D models. It stands to reason this would be an issue if they use motion capture again for the reboot which I'm sure they will because Hollywood sees it as the go-to method of bringing to life non-human characters.

Also when you add in that there's little chance they are going to have the kind of budget the 2014 did it seems inevitable.

Yes. After a few viewings I just can't watch those portions anymore. Once you've seen it a few times those chunks of the film just get boring as hell, imo. Whether I've come across it on tv or the few times I've popped my disc in the player I always just skip forward, as well as other long non-Turtle portions.

But is that because this way is inherently bad or because Megan Fox is not a good enough actress to carry twenty solid minutes of a movie particularly some of the cringey things they made her do.

I'd argue the concept of making the turtles more mysterious at first helps sets up a sense of realism, world building and helps sell these characters as ninjas. In my experience that this approach helps sell TMNT to an audience that is likes to dismiss them as "kiddie crap" which is audience you need to sell TMNT to if you want a movie series to be a success.

Most super hero movies do this to help establish plot, atmosphere and tone. In Batman Begins it is more than twenty minutes before Batman actually begins, how long does it take Tony Stark to come up with the bulky mk 1 armor and even then how much longer before he comes up with his proper armor? The difference here is that we're still getting the main characters in a story explaining how and why they became a hero which is an important distinction but then it may not have to be a set up for April but Hamato Yoshi's story or if it's an IDW inspired movie a stretch in ancient Japan.

Either way I think this is something fans will have to consider because as I said the likelihood is that they will choose an approach that is the most expensive on what will be the lowest budget thus making another human centric movie almost inevitable.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Originally Posted by Galactus

2. Megan Fox. This may sound harsh since she to be the target for a lot criticism that should be reserved for the film maker she is most associated with but we really need a better actress for April. True, we don't need an oscar winner to play the lead in a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie but if an actor is going to carry the movie and we're going to get a extended period of watching little but them then they need to be engaging.

It's funny because now that she's in a mystery show Legends of the Lost with Megan Fox, I can actually see them trying to get her to play April again but in a similar role to that show as oppose to what we got from her in the last two films. Highly unlikely, though.

I was thinking maybe Hailee Steinfeld taking up the role. Part of it is based on her performance from the recent Bumblebee admittedly but when I look at her and her design, I can see her playing either a Mirage or at the very least, an 80s styled April. She may look like she's still a teen but both her and April are in their 20s. Personally, I'd prefer an older April but I think she can fit the bill quite well. With Paramount (more accurately Bay) reusing some actors in other films, it's not a far fetched situation.

Originally Posted by Galactus

It surely has to happen.

The producers have said the reason for the turtles lack of screen time in the 2014 movie was that it ate up their cgi budget to simply come up with 3D models. It stands to reason this would be an issue if they use motion capture again for the reboot which I'm sure they will because Hollywood sees it as the go-to method of bringing to life non-human characters.

Also when you add in that there's little chance they are going to have the kind of budget the 2014 did it seems inevitable.



But is that because this way is inherently bad or because Megan Fox is not a good enough actress to carry twenty solid minutes of a movie particularly some of the cringey things they made her do.

I'd argue the concept of making the turtles more mysterious at first helps sets up a sense of realism, world building and helps sell these characters as ninjas. In my experience that this approach helps sell TMNT to an audience that is likes to dismiss them as "kiddie crap" which is audience you need to sell TMNT to if you want a movie series to be a success.

Most super hero movies do this to help establish plot, atmosphere and tone. In Batman Begins it is more than twenty minutes before Batman actually begins, how long does it take Tony Stark to come up with the bulky mk 1 armor and even then how much longer before he comes up with his proper armor? The difference here is that we're still getting the main characters in a story explaining how and why they became a hero which is an important distinction but then it may not have to be a set up for April but Hamato Yoshi's story or if it's an IDW inspired movie a stretch in ancient Japan.

Either way I think this is something fans will have to consider because as I said the likelihood is that they will choose an approach that is the most expensive on what will be the lowest budget thus making another human centric movie almost inevitable.

This I can definitely understand. There was build up for the turtles in the 1990 film but it would make a lot more sense to keep the turtles hidden for a lot longer as to hype up the audiences. But they would need the type of actors who can carry out the beginning before the main characters appear as well as a good script. The actors in the 2014 film couldn't do that.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by LeotheLateBloomer

It's funny because now that she's in a mystery show Legends of the Lost with Megan Fox, I can actually see them trying to get her to play April again but in a similar role to that show as oppose to what we got from her in the last two films. Highly unlikely, though.

I was thinking maybe Hailee Steinfeld taking up the role. Part of it is based on her performance from the recent Bumblebee admittedly but when I look at her and her design, I can see her playing either a Mirage or at the very least, an 80s styled April. She may look like she's still a teen but both her and April are in their 20s. Personally, I'd prefer an older April but I think she can fit the bill quite well. With Paramount (more accurately Bay) reusing some actors in other films, it's not a far fetched situation.

I remember Leibesman saying that he based the 2014 version on Megan Fox herself after several conversations with her. So April in the first Platinum Dunes movie is she sees herself. As much as I think she gets a lot of unfair flack I don't think the reason she isn't taken seriously in her career is because she too hot.

Strangely if she was in a new TMNT movie and they based April's own characterization on Megan's real life interest in ancient cultures it may not be too un-TMNT. The antique dealer April of the comics lended itself to that kind of characterization hence her tomb raider-esque status in the 2007 cgi movie.

Hailee Steinfeld would make a good April in my view especially if it was based on the Nickelodeon version of course even with Bay's propensity to use the same actors would someone like her want to do another 80s nostalgia property? This presents a bigger problem - and one whose solution is not going to be popular with fans but since I'm being practical - A TMNT reboot is going to need one or two names in key roles that are currently big in Hollywood. That would be a big ask even if TMNT wasn't now a franchise that needs rescuing.

By big names I mean actors and/or actresses that have media interest and are proven ticket sellers not someone who is or used to be tabloid fodder and topped FHM's Sexiest Woman of 2007 which is what they banked on with Megan Fox.

You'd think they'd do this with the turtles. After all the motion capture and facial recognition was hyped as bringing real emotional performances out of these cgi characters so at very least get some noted character actors in there. Not that anything in either movies required any emotional depth and no disrespect meant to the four turtle actors who did fine but nothing cgi from scratch or even animatronics couldn't do.

This I can definitely understand. There was build up for the turtles in the 1990 film but it would make a lot more sense to keep the turtles hidden for a lot longer as to hype up the audiences. But they would need the type of actors who can carry out the beginning before the main characters appear as well as a good script. The actors in the 2014 film couldn't do that.

Almost every version has started portraying the turtles as shadowy mysterious entities, the difference here is instead of a five - six minutes we have 17 minutes in the Platinum Dunes movie.

I'm not saying it's always the right course but it does have some good aspects, world building, establishing tone, making the turtles seem cool and more ninja-like but my main point is if they are going to go motion capture again then practically speaking there is a significant chunk of the movie that wont have lots of turtles and maybe we should get discussion in early what exactly it will be in their place.

It doesn't have to be April investigating these mysterious new gang fighters, in fact I imagine they wont want to rehash that again so soon even if they can do it better and be effective.

It could be Hamato Yoshi and Tang Shen's story. Every version of TMNT that has included that so far has related it via flash backs but we could begin with it. Open with Yoshi and Shen living happily in New York, get to know them and their pet rat before Shredder and the Foot shows up murdering them, you could depict Splinter's escape and being part of the road accident that mutated the turtles and Splinter - first time that would be depicted in live action which would be very cool - cut to 15 years later and the movie begins proper.

If It's an IDW inspired movie they are going for we could have an extended opening in ancient Japan or in a the lab as the turtles and Splinter are being experimented on although they probably don't want to do that after the last movie really made a hash of a lab based origin.

[AquaParade]

Edit: webpage glitched and I lost half of what I typed out, so forget it.

[Andrew NDB]

The "fixing" of the problems you list wouldn't have remotely saved that movie. The true problems are far more fundamental. And no, it wouldn't really matter who they cast as April. Certainly not in that kind of TMNT movie.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by Galactus

I remember Leibesman saying that he based the 2014 version on Megan Fox herself after several conversations with her.

I have long felt that those Turtles don't even know April... they randomly know Megan Fox for some damned reason, and I guess that makes it even more true.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by Galactus

It could be Hamato Yoshi and Tang Shen's story. Every version of TMNT that has included that so far has related it via flash backs but we could begin with it. Open with Yoshi and Shen living happily in New York, get to know them and their pet rat before Shredder and the Foot shows up murdering them, you could depict Splinter's escape and being part of the road accident that mutated the turtles and Splinter - first time that would be depicted in live action which would be very cool - cut to 15 years later and the movie begins proper.

To explore that topic wider, I would like a comic or cartoon beginning in Japan.

[IndigoErth]

You know what... Skip long build-ups or backstories that have been rehashed over and over and don't need to be made stupid for the sake of trying to be different and interesting and instead, as mentioned many times before, just jump right into a story with the TMNT already known by the viewers. (I mean you'd be hard pressed to find a potential viewer who doesn't at least recognize these guys already anyhow.)

BUT.

Release a free tie-in promotional comic -- maybe obtainable at theaters (and by other means?) in the weeks/months before premier -- that acts as a prologue, covering anything they don't really want or need to waste time with in a film. (Then as I said somewhere not long ago, do the whole asterisk "see issue number whatever" thing somewhere in the opening like comics often include after a piece of dialogue.)

Or, maybe to stop people trying to profit from it and grabbing handfuls, just make this promo a thing that is handed out when people go to see the film. They check your ticket and give you a book. People can choose to read it if they wish while they wait for the film to start. (Lord knows the ads these days give you plenty of time.)

Could be a fun way to tie comic book movies to their comic origins.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

The "fixing" of the problems you list wouldn't have remotely saved that movie. The true problems are far more fundamental. And no, it wouldn't really matter who they cast as April. Certainly not in that kind of TMNT movie.

I'm not trying to fix the 2014 movie, there is no doing that.

At most I'm suggesting how to fix the first 17 minutes since we may possibly find ourselves in the same bind with the next movie. While nothing in TMNT requires oscar level performances decent acting is a start to fixing things.

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

You know what... Skip long build-ups or backstories that have been rehashed over and over and don't need to be made stupid for the sake of trying to be different and interesting and instead, as mentioned many times before, just jump right into a story with the TMNT already known by the viewers. (I mean you'd be hard pressed to find a potential viewer who doesn't at least recognize these guys already anyhow.)

How sway? HOW?

After Out Of The Shadows failure there's little chance Paramount is going to give a TMNT reboot the same budget as the 2014 movie. This means that even if the movie is not human centric there's going to be a sizable chunk of it were we don't properly see the turtles.

From a creative standpoint just jumping in with this franchise is ridiculous. TMNT may be as well known as Superman, Batman and Spider-Man but their actual story is not nearly as well known. Yeah most people know the whole radioactive waste, trained in martial arts by a rat, fight another ninja called Shedder and that may seem like a suitable info to go into a movie with but there's important details that need to be explained.

Is Splinter Hamato Yoshi's pet that became man-like or Hamato Yoshi himself who became rat-like? That may not seem important since writers characterize him mostly the same whichever version they use but it absolutely alters in a big way his relationship with the Shredder.

What kind of world do the turtles live in? Is it a realistic lived in modern NYC, an ultra gritty noir world or bright cartoony thing were the characters get involved in hilarious physics defying slapstick the turtles drive a van with the names on and no one notices.

Platinum Dunes biggest crime was ignoring all this. Important details like how the turtles learn ninjitsu is brushed off with "Splinter got it from a book" and we're supposed to accept that because we just want to jump straight into the action. The multiple nonsensical explanations given for the mutagen and what the Foot want to do with it are brushed off quickly so they can get to the snow chase and tower fight.

Yeah there's some short hand stuff that we can gloss over expecting the audience to infer characterization and motivation based their prior knowledge of other versions. The praise of the turtles personalities being spot in as largely due to this but even then it can fail. Like Raph's emotional speech at the end of the reboot movie, I know I wasn't the only one who thought "hmm that's sounds like Raph but we didn't actually see him go through any of this stuff in the movie".

Out Of The Shadows in particular is full of this kind of horse hit. Shredder teams up with Krang for no reason other than they expect audiences to with it because the they were partners in the cartoon. What reason do Bebop and Rocksteady have for mutating into a rhino and warthog? There isn't any but we're supposed to go with it because that's what were in the cartoon? What reason did Shredder even have to recruit to recruit those two idiots? There wasn't any but we're expected to go with it because...well you get the idea.

All these decisions were born out of getting the set up over with as fast as they could so they could skip to the good bits but there's no pay off without a set up first.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by Galactus

Superman, Batman and Spider-Man

All those franchises had existed for years when the TMNT first appeared in May 1984. It is now 35 years ago.

Superman has existed since 1938. The franchise turned 35 in 1973.

Batman has existed since 1939. Turned 35 in 1974.

Spider-Man has existed since 1962. Turned 35 in 1997.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

All those franchises had existed for years when the TMNT first appeared in May 1984. It is now 36 years ago.

Superman has existed since 1938. The franchise turned 36 in 1974.

Batman has existed since 1939. Turned 36 in 1975.

Spider-Man has existed since 1962. Turned 36 in 1998.

I believe you mean TMNT is 34 years old currently. Btw, what is this in reference to when it comes to the franchise's age? Little confused.

[IndigoErth]

Although, we could nitpick on if basing age of it on birth of concept or first publication; 34 if the former, 35 (as of somewhat recently) if the latter. (They're already 35 in my mind...)



But are the other three really as widely well known to most? Isn't there kind of a wall that general public knowledge hits at some point? Where a certain and similar amount of knowledge is common among most longtime properties, but beyond that, being around longer doesn't tend to increase that amount that casual viewers know.

Sure, they've been around quite a bit longer -- which I guess is the point of the age of them, that they've had a longer period of time to work on being widely known -- but honestly, my knowledge of their origins are probably about as simple as a non-TMNT fan's is. Seemingly superpowered guy from another planet playing hero on Earth and has a kryptonite weakness; A rich orphan (I think?) who is highly trained, lacking super powers and playing hero...for some reason (parental revenge?); young guy bit by a radioactive spider and given super powers. In the same sense of people knowing that mutated and ninja-trained Turtles live in the sewer, fight a nemesis, and also play hero albeit maybe unintentionally.

If a film of the other three want to jump right into a story, honestly, that is fine and really on me to go find out more backstory if I really care to know more, but being only a casual viewer it really isn't that important to me either way. I recognize them and that's kind of enough since I'm not really invested in their story.

When you're an old enough property like TMNT to be considering a 7th film, if someone interested in seeing it hasn't enough of a clue about them by now, well...that is on them. Maybe a viewer can be excused if they're, say, five years old, but even then... come on kid, there are like two cartoons presently on tv you've probably been watching many repeats of.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I just thought of we have never seen the Foot in a live-action film as a ninjutsu clan (based on ninjas in history and myth)?

In the New Line films, it was a Japanese-themed street gang (combined Foot Clan and Purple Dragons?) and in the Platinum Dunes films, it was a paramilitary terrorist group.