Star Trek: Discovery

[Raph's Girl]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Did I see a REAL Klingon in there!?

The Klingons in the first season were real Klingons, just not from Quonos. Apparantly Klingons differ from world to world...and houses.

[Raph's Girl]

Found another image of Ethan Peck's Spock. Slight improvement. Still iffy on the beard but the eyebrows are much better, ears could use some improving, haircut is needed...

Spoiler:

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Raph's Girl

The Klingons in the first season were real Klingons, just not from Quonos. Apparantly Klingons differ from world to world...and houses.

Nah, that's some bull$hit. We've seen plenty of Klingon houses. House of Mogh, House of Martok, House of Gowron, House of Kor, Koloth, Kang, Kruge... the list goes on and on.

It's a needless cosmetic overhaul for the sake of "ooh shiny new."

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Raph's Girl

The Klingons in the first season were real Klingons, just not from Quonos. Apparantly Klingons differ from world to world...and houses.

Nonsense. It was like episode 2 of season 1 where we saw all the Houses meeting together. All of them bald and weird looking.

[Andrew NDB]

Kurtzman explains the "canon issues":

http://www.darkhorizons.com/kurtzman...-canon-issues/

Infuriating.

[Roseangelo]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Kurtzman explains the "canon issues":

http://www.darkhorizons.com/kurtzman...-canon-issues/

Infuriating.

It's most ridiculous because all they had to do was not set it 10 years before TOS.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Roseangelo

It's most ridiculous because all they had to do was not set it 10 years before TOS.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Kurtzman explains the "canon issues":

http://www.darkhorizons.com/kurtzman...-canon-issues/

Infuriating.

Yeah. I mean, sure, ignore the non-canon (or secondary, as I prefer to think of it) comics and books. But if it's on-screen, it's fvcking canon and it needs to be kept. Or properly explained.

Some people hate Enterprise for explaining the Klingon foreheads, but I thought it worked exceptionally well.

I finally marathoned the entirety of Discovery with my wife. Loved most of it, hated Burnham, Sarek, and the Klingon War. And the needless Klingon changes. Man, Burnham was a B!TCH to Ash Tyler in the last episodes. Oh, and the Mirror Universe "eye sensitivity" thing was idiotic.

Lorca was great until the reveal. Georgiou was great. Stamets, Tilly, Culber, Saru, and Tyler were great. Mudd was actually pretty fvcking fantabulous, if bloodthirsty.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Nah, that's some bull$hit. We've seen plenty of Klingon houses. House of Mogh, House of Martok, House of Gowron, House of Kor, Koloth, Kang, Kruge... the list goes on and on.

It's a needless cosmetic overhaul for the sake of "ooh shiny new."

Which is basically what the ridges always were.

It never made a lick of sense and for years cosmetic changes in the various movies and tv series for the sake of "ooh shiny and new" were explained by people in charge of the franchise that as far as they were concerned it always looked that way. So when you re-watched episodes of TOS you just had to imagine they had ridges and buttons and displays were more like TMP.

DS9 had their little joke in their anniversary episode about the Klingons not having ridges in the 23rd Century and that was fun and all but I can't help but think it opened a can of worms. Did Enterprise really need a three part episode to explain the mystery of the Klingon ridges and in the end the Augment Klingons didn't really look like TOS era Klingons.

I know Star Trek fandom has traditionally been more minutia driven than many other sci fi franchises but I think maintaining this cohesive continuity went out of the window a long time ago. The Borg zipping around the Alpha Quadrant centuries prior Next Gen and only certain Federation people knew about them, The Battle of Wolf 359 was originally fought with one Cube yet apparently there were loads of others that all conveniently abducted Alpha Quadrant people for Voyager to continually encounter, weren't forty ships - most of the Fleet - wiped out in the battle but the Dominion war portrays that Starfeet are made up of hundreds if not thousands of ships, Yridians are a thing in Next Gen & DS9 but Voyager says they were thought to be extinct. Then we get to Enterprise and we may as well throw out all canon.

Discovery has some problems but this isn't really one of them.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Galactus

Which is basically what the ridges always were.

It never made a lick of sense and for years cosmetic changes in the various movies and tv series for the sake of "ooh shiny and new" were explained by people in charge of the franchise that as far as they were concerned it always looked that way. So when you re-watched episodes of TOS you just had to imagine they had ridges and buttons and displays were more like TMP.

DS9 had their little joke in their anniversary episode about the Klingons not having ridges in the 23rd Century and that was fun and all but I can't help but think it opened a can of worms. Did Enterprise really no need a three part episode to explain the mystery of the Klingon ridges and in the end the Augment Klingons didn't really look like TOS era Klingons.

I know Star Trek fandom has traditionally been more minutia than many other sci fi franchises but I think maintaining this cohesive continuity went out of the window a long time ago. The Borg zipping around the Alpha Quadrant centuries prior Next Gen and only certain Federation people knew about them, The Battle of Wolf 359 was originally fought with one Cube yet apparently there were loads of that all conveniently abducted Alpha Quadrant people for Voyager to continually encounter, weren't forty ships - most of the Fleet wiped out in the battle but the Dominion war portrays that Starfeet are made up of hundreds if not thousands of ships, Yridians are a thing in Next Gen & DS9 but Voyager says they were thought to be extinct. Then we get to Enterprise and we may as well throw out all canon.

Discovery has some problems but this isn't really one of the.

It's not just the heads. But let's discuss the heads first! When Klingons were originally disguised as humans (Trouble With Tribbles), they only had slight facial features to disguise. Basically, they needed a shave and to wipe off the greasepaint. If TNG Klingons needed to disguise, you did cosmetic surgery to fix the teeth and smooth out the forehead ridges. (Or, conversely, add them... like Sisko, O'Brien, and Odo underwent during the Federation/Klingon spat before the Dominion War moved from cold war to hor war.)

The Disco Klingons have huge fvcking xenomorph skulls. And they cut all that away to turn Voq into Tyler. I don't buy that at all. That's a LOT of brain to cut off and toss in the sausage grinder, ya know?

Anyway, though, it's not just the skulls. It's the entire civilization. It's the idea of Klingons caring about their corpses after death, and that they never really acted like Klingons. When you change the look of everything, from their wardrobe, their armor, their weapons, their ships...

And yes, The Motion Picture and TNG did visually update the Klingons first. But that was updating 3 years of off-screen canon... not 30 years. They have to be weighed differently, in my opinion.

I don't mind the idea of showing the Federation-Klingon War, but Discovery never really felt like a war. Not the way the Dominion War did. We only ever saw one major battle (Binary Stars) and then we just kept getting told everything happened off-screen. Of course, Deep Space Nine got five seasons to show the war, and Discovery had about five episodes.

Oh, one final point. Star Trek gives visual upgrades to lots of species, not just the Klingons. Romulans got those big ol' eyebrow ridges; Cardassians lost the weird brown helmets; the Borg got much more intimidating past the original "garage vacuum-cleaner hoses" of "Q Who"; the Trill lost the bumpy foreheads and gained the spots (and sex appeal).

Visual tweaks aren't something to freak out about. But such a massive overhaul, cultural, historical, and visual, is a bigger deal for me than "oh, the Klingons are all bald now."

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

The Disco Klingons have huge fvcking xenomorph skulls. And they cut all that away to turn Voq into Tyler. I don't buy that at all. That's a LOT of brain to cut off and toss in the sausage grinder, ya know?

I kinda felt the same way when I watched Imperfection which stated all Borg have a big lightbulb to replace a sizable chunk of their brains and realize that as per the episode a week prior were Janeway, B'elanna and Tuvok are all assimilated they all must have big hole in their brain.

This is the franchise were Spock's entire brain was removed. As much as fans would love to forget about that...and Janeway and Paris becoming lizards it happened.

Anyway, though, it's not just the skulls. It's the entire civilization. It's the idea of Klingons caring about their corpses after death, and that they never really acted like Klingons. When you change the look of everything, from their wardrobe, their armor, their weapons, their ships...

Again not the first time this has happened.

The TOS vague Soviet allegory Klingons are nothing culturally like the ones in the movies which had more animistic traits or later TV shows.

Just look at how they changed on Next Gen alone. In Heart of Glory Korris wants to live as his ancestors prior to the 23rd century did as an viking-esque warrior. Some writers really liked that episode and the more we saw of Klingons the more their mythology was built on this idea that it consumed their entire characterization. By the time the series ended Klingons were all about honour and seeking death in glorious battle and nothing else mattered to them.

Not only that but this was all retroactively added to Klingons prior to Next Gen. Their society had always been this way and never stopped so we have to imagine TOS era Klingons as honour obsessed. Where this leave the episode that started the writers obsession with Klingons as this is...questionable.

And yes, The Motion Picture and TNG did visually update the Klingons first. But that was updating 3 years of off-screen canon... not 30 years. They have to be weighed differently, in my opinion.

What year did Nemesis come out? When did Enterprise end? As far as I'm concerned enough time has passed that we can do something differently.

That's the challenge of a prequel series. Making everything look current and modern by TV show standards but adhere to some kind continuity and aesthetic of something made in the sixties. If Manny Coto had gotten his wish in having a fifth season of Enterprise he would have done the Romulan War but it couldn't have been anything like it was described in TOS.

I don't mind the idea of showing the Federation-Klingon War, but Discovery never really felt like a war. Not the way the Dominion War did. We only ever saw one major battle (Binary Stars) and then we just kept getting told everything happened off-screen. Of course, Deep Space Nine got five seasons to show the war, and Discovery had about five episodes.

You got a point there but as much as I love DS9 it too suffered from same thing. The two seasons were The Dominion and the Federation were officially at war we still got more episodes focusing on baseball games, holographic lounge lizards, Odo and Kira's romance etc. Apart from event episodes most of the war was happening away from the main cast plus we had Insurrection out at the time were in the middle of a bloody war Picard is singing Gilbert and Sullivan so y'know.

[Andrew NDB]

I mean, why does he even bring up the books and novels into the conversation? Nobody, not even Star Trek fans fight to have those stay in canon. We're talking about the episodes themselves that conflict. He brings the books up just to make his bullsh** point.

[BartAllen]

The show on its own isn't that bad. It's just not at all a good star trek show. It almost feels like a rip off of that old show Babylon 5, but worse.

[Roseangelo]

Soooo... a Discovery spin-off with Michelle Yeoh got announced today.

I, admittedly, haven't watched Discovery yet, and can't make a real opinion on whether or not this makes sense. But from the outside looking in, this does not make sense.

Change my mind?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Roseangelo

Soooo... a Discovery spin-off with Michelle Yeoh got announced today.

I, admittedly, haven't watched Discovery yet, and can't make a real opinion on whether or not this makes sense. But from the outside looking in, this does not make sense.

Change my mind?

I dunno. I've softened towards Discovery since marathoning it, but I still find the key components and main parts of it extremely flawed and detrimental.

Michael Burnham, the Klingon War, Sarek, the spore drive. All of those don't work, due to poor writing. Sarek never feels like the Sarek we already know; Burnham starts as a terrible person, becomes better thanks to Tilly and Tyler, and then burns her bridges with Tyler in the end and is back to a terrible person; and the spore drive and tardigrades involves a lawsuit and questionable IP.

So as for seeing Mirror Georgiou become a Section 31 operative and get her own show? ... I'm skeptical but interested. Georgiou (both versions) was one of my favorite parts of the show. But I'm sure the show will trample over established canon and, indeed, already seems to be making Section 31 much more widely known than it was ever supposed to be.

At the same time, I'm super-hyped for a Section 31-focused show!

[Andrew NDB]

But man... a Section 31 show during Kirk's time? Mehhh... what, just so they can run into the Enterprise and Spock once in a while? And yeah, much more widely known. Even the Discovery itself had a whole wing we saw with people with black badges... then they never addressed it ever again.

I'd dig one set, like, right when Romulus bought the farm.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

But man... a Section 31 show during Kirk's time? Mehhh... what, just so they can run into the Enterprise and Spock once in a while? And yeah, much more widely known. Even the Discovery itself had a whole wing we saw with people with black badges... then they never addressed it ever again.

I'd dig one set, like, right when Romulus bought the farm.

Yeah, the black badge on Discovery was pointless.

And yeah, a Section 31 show set post-TNG/DS9/VOY would be frickin' AMAZING. But sure... this is, uh, a thing, too?

[Andrew NDB]

So I endured the premiere of Discuckery. Pretty much came out of it saying, "Well... that's a pretty good Pike." Beyond that, lots of bullsh** forced drama, a random lesbian chick who they quickly forget about, a recreation of the squid ship from Abramverse movie #1, a recreation of the space suit journey to the USS Vengeance from Abramsverse movie #2, and no actual discovery again.

Also, very bizarre Power Rangers suits they put on when it's time for the big action, squid ship stuff. They all have auto-helmets that flip into place like Iron Man (they might have even been in the last season, I don't remember) except... they keep them off pretty much the whole time? With only a thin layer of glass between them and all the millions of mini asteroids that can -- and do -- puncture the hulls of their little tiny squid ships? So, so stupid. It's not even worth pointing out these things don't exist then anymore. Nobody over there cares.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

So I endured the premiere of Discuckery. Pretty much came out of it saying, "Well... that's a pretty good Pike." Beyond that, lots of bullsh** forced drama, a random lesbian chick who they quickly forget about, a recreation of the squid ship from Abramverse movie #1, a recreation of the space suit journey to the USS Vengeance from Abramsverse movie #2, and no actual discovery again.

Also, very bizarre Power Rangers suits they put on when it's time for the big action, squid ship stuff. They all have auto-helmets that flip into place like Iron Man (they might have even been in the last season, I don't remember) except... they keep them off pretty much the whole time? With only a thin layer of glass between them and all the millions of mini asteroids that can -- and do -- puncture the hulls of their little tiny squid ships? So, so stupid. It's not even worth pointing out these things don't exist then anymore. Nobody over there cares.

How was Number One?

I'm waiting for the Picard series to premiere before I bother signing up. I waited for Discovery Season 1 on DVD; I can do the same for Season 2.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

How was Number One?

Number One wasn't there. Pike immediately beams over and brings his science officer (not Spock) and a couple of others. We never see the Enterprise bridge, just Spock's quarters and a hallway... neither of which bear any resemblance to Spock's quarters in TOS or the hallways there either.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Number One wasn't there. Pike immediately beams over and brings his science officer (not Spock) and a couple of others. We never see the Enterprise bridge, just Spock's quarters and a hallway... neither of which bear any resemblance to Spock's quarters in TOS or the hallways there either.

Pretty lackluster for a season kickoff, then, eh?