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Old 02-06-2020, 09:19 AM   #221
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At least Romney had some sense. He might be one of the last rats to notice that the republican ship is sinking, but better late than never unlike the rest of them who will continue to pretend all is fine.
Personally, I think the Dems are going far more insane than the republicans. and I USED to think they where the good guys. and the Republicans where all old rich white people that where part of the problem.

Maybe they still are. but they sure seem far more sane these days.
Pelosi temper tantrum is just the latest sign of 4th grade immaturity this entire party has these days. the really sad part is that all the dems voted guilty, and all but one odd republican voted not guilty. even when the dems knew there was no chance they would win.

all they did was waste tax payer money on a sham trial based on feelings and emotion and hear say rather than facts.
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Old 02-06-2020, 09:34 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Vegita-San View Post
Personally, I think the Dems are going far more insane than the republicans. and I USED to think they where the good guys. and the Republicans where all old rich white people that where part of the problem.

Maybe they still are. but they sure seem far more sane these days.
Pelosi temper tantrum is just the latest sign of 4th grade immaturity this entire party has these days. the really sad part is that all the dems voted guilty, and all but one odd republican voted not guilty. even when the dems knew there was no chance they would win.

all they did was waste tax payer money on a sham trial based on feelings and emotion and hear say rather than facts.

Agreed 100%. I too used to believe the Democrats were the good guys but through many life experiences a few of which I stated in a previous post have led me more to the right. I still adhere to a few concepts that are more left oriented but I am usually conservative on most fronts. The last three years and change have opened up my eyes to that while both parties suffer significant flaws, the Democrats are all but a lost cause at this point. Calling what they have a “waste” is an understatement! They have attempted to unravel any sense of what democracy was meant to be all because they hate the man elected to office. Each and every attempt to undo his presidency has only ended in embarrassing failure and actually emboldens Trump moving forward. They actually make him more credible with every passing day.

The older I’ve become and for many of the people around me I’ve seen a trend toward becoming more conservative. I’ve worked hard to achieve what I have and mind you it isn’t extravagant by any means but it is mine, and I earned it. The Democrats have made it nearly impossible for me to ever consider voting for their side.
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Old 02-06-2020, 09:38 AM   #223
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I think it's a matter of degree.

When your government is traditionally Center-Right, then being two steps to the left is still technically "To The Left", which is still about one step more than most people in that environment are fully comfortable with at any given time.

Likewise, to someone looking in from someplace much farther Left, the Center-Right would look Far Right by comparison, even though it's not.

All degrees and perspective.
But you said too far left. Exactly how far right do the Democrats need to be before they lose that radical edge? What is the perfect spot?

Also, what you're saying is all very confusing to me.

Loan forgiveness from predatory banks isn't OK because some people paid them back? Just because some people suffered means we can't change the system? I don't follow. People might be angry? So what? You've made it clear that people get screwed by the system all the time.

We'll never have a perfect system. Some people are going to get a bad shake.

I've been homeless. As a matter of pride I stayed away from government assistance. I would wander around Walmart at night to keep warm because the cops would wake me up on corpse check in the middle of March.

I'd use the internet at restaurants to apply for jobs. And nothing was out there. And through sheer fate and fortune I managed to fly the coup. I left the country and never looked back.

And so I traveled. I lived in different countries and saw how other people lived. And even in countries that were homogenous. Even in countries that were super conservative, housing and medicine were affordable.

Meanwhile, in the US, my father had to pay $10000 a month for medicine he needed to live. My cousin and my best friend both died from drug overdoses. I've seen people start gofundmes for medical support.

I got a job teaching in a pretty low income area. I had kids who were in your position. Abusive or absentee parents. Drugs. One girl had a man get shot and die on her patio.

I took a different message from all this, though. I felt like this didn't need to be the way we live. Just because other people are cruel doesn't mean "I* had to be. I could do what I could to help. I could give freely of myself, what I could at least, to help.

And it's not much, I'm sure. I won't fix the world. But I've helped some people when they needed it. And it was worth the effort, because I know what it's like to suffer.

Hell isn't a place. It's a state of being. It's being thrown away and forgotten. It's loneliness. It's depression. You don't have to look hard for it. And when you find someone there, sometimes you can lift them out. You don't need to be the person who mocks them, who kicks them while they're down.

"But they put themselves there!". Perhaps they did. Perhaps they didn't. I'm sure we've all screwed up before. I'm sure we could have all used help before. Saying that people deserve it is... disheartening. But I'm weary of painting with such broad strokes.

My one friend, he ODed from heroin, I guess it was. I'm not sure. He was always looking to escape the misery of life. He was brilliant. And I mean *brilliant*. Though you'd never guess with his hard East coast accent and appearance. He worked his ass off. Hussled like you wouldn't believe. The guy went to school and learned to build guitars. And, man could he. And not just that. Any string instrument. And he could repair any wooden instrument, too. As far as playing goes, people still speak of him as though he were a legend.

But he had demons. His family life was crap. He was lonely. His business didn't attract as much attention as he had hoped. He managed to get in some mid-level bands and tour, but that put him in a bad spot with the substance abuse.

He went to rehab after a brush with the law, came home clean, and was dead about two years later.

So yeah, he did it to himself. But I refuse to look at him in disdain for what happened. He was a great friend. We had good times together. He just couldn't beat his demons.

My cousin? Well, they came from "that" side of the family. But even then, the fallout hits the living, not the dead. Her 3 year old son doesn't have much of a chance.

I understand that some of these people are vampires. That they'll suck every last bit of whatever they can get out of anyone they can get it from. At the same time, saying that social programs by and large are a waste of resources is something I'll never agree with.

My one student managed to get into a very good college. But only because there was scholarship money available for her to do so. She worked hard. She earned it. But without the cash, it never would've happened.

The biggest problem I have with all of the rhetoric is reducing the problems down to Facebook memes and giving snarky solutions. And saying that people don't deserve help doesn't sit well with me. If they do want a way out, I don't mind pitching in what I can.

That's how society works. And anyone who insists they never got help from anyone is a liar.
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Old 02-06-2020, 09:41 AM   #224
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I think a lot of people liked to assume the same things, but what we're seeing now is less the Democrats "going crazy", and more the average person coming around to realizing that they're really just as bad as Republicans from a different direction. They've always told Pretty Lies to "get over" with people but because they were The Nice People, it was easy to paint them as the good guys. Now, in their zealotry to hurt Trump at any cost, they've become more transparent, and while nothing's really changed it just kind of surprises people who believed in them for whatever reason that they could be just as petty and cutthroat and dishonest and whatever as the people they're supposed to be better than.

I don't think they "went crazy", I think they just let their facade slip and people noticed.
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Old 02-06-2020, 09:48 AM   #225
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I think a lot of people liked to assume the same things, but what we're seeing now is less the Democrats "going crazy", and more the average person coming around to realizing that they're really just as bad as Republicans from a different direction. They've always told Pretty Lies to "get over" with people but because they were The Nice People, it was easy to paint them as the good guys. Now, in their zealotry to hurt Trump at any cost, they've become more transparent, and while nothing's really changed it just kind of surprises people who believed in them for whatever reason that they could be just as petty and cutthroat and dishonest and whatever as the people they're supposed to be better than.

I don't think they "went crazy", I think they just let their facade slip and people noticed.
I agree 100%.

And that was the trick.... to wait out the tidal wave of social phenomena where even those people who are slower to "recognize and adapt" begin to come around on an issue. It's just the unfortunate truth - when you have a social motion, you are going to have different reaction times. Basically there's always a sucker, but even the suckers are coming around now while the Democratic party dies on the vine.

Like you said - the Dem party is in so deep on their manipulation games that even the bottom-feeder-thinkers in society are starting to say "Hoooollldddd onnn, I seeeee what you did there......".
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Old 02-07-2020, 01:24 AM   #226
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I think a lot of people liked to assume the same things, but what we're seeing now is less the Democrats "going crazy", and more the average person coming around to realizing that they're really just as bad as Republicans from a different direction. They've always told Pretty Lies to "get over" with people but because they were The Nice People, it was easy to paint them as the good guys. Now, in their zealotry to hurt Trump at any cost, they've become more transparent, and while nothing's really changed it just kind of surprises people who believed in them for whatever reason that they could be just as petty and cutthroat and dishonest and whatever as the people they're supposed to be better than.

I don't think they "went crazy", I think they just let their facade slip and people noticed.
Went crazy? How so? Because they tried to impeach Trump? Or that they tried and failed?

There's so many ways to dissect this whole mess that don't come down to "Dems went crazy!" that I can't see it holding much water.

They lost. That's a shame for them. But it wasn't some "blind hate", "libs can't stand losing so blah, blah, blah" neuroses that drove that. There are certainly elements of the party that project that image, but the leadership is anything but insane. At least, when it comes to the impeachment. There are other topics where they seem. . . less than stable.

But in reality, beyond the gnashing teeth of social media, impeaching Trump was a totally legitimate and even expected move. He's not a politician, and he's not that great at playing subtle games. He's engaged in several activities that should be investigated, and most of them weren't even brought up during the trial.

Just to give a quick rundown of the incontestable:

1. Trump violated campaign finance law. The porn star affairs, while not illegal on their own, lead to illegal behavior in the eyes of the law. One cannot use campaign finances for illicit behavior.

Regardless of how his fans feel about it, that's the law. And he very much should have been investigated and taken to trial for that.

2. Profiting from the Presidency. Using the power of the office for personal gain is illegal. Anyone who wants to contest this is free to insist that Bill Clinton's impeachment was the GOP going crazy. And Trump does this consistently. The Secret Service stays at his hotels, paying money into Trump's pockets. He's used his position as President to advertise his children's work, enriching them.
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/IF11086.pdf] Here is a link to the emoluments and how this can be applied to the situation.

Which brings us to the "so what?!" and the "Dems are just as bad, if not worse!" defenses that people like to shout.

I'm sure we can find a lot of things that Dems did that were or are illegal. Sure. We've established that the political machine we live under is corrupt and rotten to the core.

However, I'd hate to make things seem that simple. It's a cop out to start in with "the Dems are bad! Trump is innocent! Libs are terrible!" only to back track to "Oh! Well, everyone is bad! Haha! I just choose the people who don't like about ruining everything!"

First, I don't think this solves anything. I know some of us enjoy jumping on here and laying down some slick one-liners they got from a minion meme their grandma posted. It doesn't really bring anything to the table though. These are issues that need to be discussed. They're complex. They are, at their heart, incredibly boring. The nuance contained in the reports does reinforce the idea that both parties are piles of crap. But we're not talking about that.

No, instead a lot of people are just making noise. They demand relevance but offer nothing of substance. They rush in and label everyone as a "libtard" or whatever conservatives are called, battle lines are drawn and that's the end of the discussion. No one talks. We just yell.

So I'm not going to entertain the idea that both are bad so we shouldn't really examine the why's or how's. I'm not interested in defending my worldview. Tell me how you see the world and what you feel adequate solutions are for the problems we face, if indeed we face any.

Which brings us to another defense I see raised: fiscal prudence.

All national problems require some expenditures. In a capitalist society so focused on keeping cash in our pockets, it's not unthinkable or unreasonable to consider the price tags of the proposed solutions.

Strangely, though, this only seems to be a problem when it's not the GOP's pet project. If we're starting an endless war that's cost us literally trillions or building a cartoonishly large super structure (that we were supposed to get for free!) the price tag is never mentioned. Our national deficit is skyrocketing, and little to mention is being made of it.

I want to repeat that again, since I know the next time a "Dumbocrat" takes the office (if ever), the first thing we'll hear about is the fiscal crisis (that is out of control RIGHT NOW). I want to be able to point to it if and when the Meme Army decides to pull that one out.

THE DEFICIT IS OUT OF CONTROL UNDER THIS CONSERVATIVE, REPUBLICAN ADMINISTRATION.

Speaking of cash, someone mentioned that the use of taxes by the Democrats to impeach the President was a waste.

I would ask if the Benghazi trials were, too? Those were seen to be a political move against $hillary CRIMEton and her Deep State Shadow Government. This was apparent from day one. She was totally exonerated, but she's still brought up consistently by conservatives as some boogeyman waiting to destroy the United States. Even today. Even in this very thread.

However, she isn't the President. Saying she'd be worse than Trump (another cop out when there's legitimate push back outside of the Bubble. Arguing that is a moot point. I may as well say that if Michelle OBUMMER were POTUS, everything would be PERFECT and we'd all be post-racial hermaphroditic androgynies and rainbows and equality would shoot out of our butts.

That only serves to illustrate my bias. Nothing more. It's a stupid argument to make.

On the other hand, both Hillary's investigation AND the Mueller Report were spearheaded by Republicans. Comey and Mueller are (or were, until the tiki torches can a-knockin') life long Republicans. Comey bailed when the base went rabid.

Which just goes to show that liberals don't have the market cornered on persecution based on stupidity. Make a gay joke, get thrown out of the Democrats. Make a suggestion that the law should apply to everyone, get thrown out of the Republicans. Have fun with that.

What am I getting at?

I believe there's a great deal of wealth inequality here in the US. Our economy is booming, but exactly how much money is anyone seeing? Not even a fraction of a percent that the top does.

Honest question: do you guys not work hard? Would you turn down a raise because you willingly admit you're lazy?

If not, why aren't you all millionaires? Billionaires? Yes, they're successful, but you aren't. I'm certainly not that successful. How many of us are pulling down 7 figures or more a year?

Do you believe yourself lesser than them? Is there a natural discrepancy in humanity that neatly and ineffably organizes us into strata?

Or is this an injustice to which we should just turn a blind eye? Have we completely lost all will to fight for a bigger share of pie?

It's been put forth that minimum wage should be raised to $15. I've listened to people lose their minds over this. Leo mentioned that loan forgiveness would make people angry. Is this the same? Would a burger flipper owning a modest domicile and making ends meet really be that unbearable for those who live in the current system?

Or is it that we were meant to starve? Doomed to struggle and die like the worthless serfs we are?

Are the elite truly elite? Should the rich and powerful be held to a different set of rules?

Personally, I believe there's nuance here. And that we need to change and adapt with the times. These are things worth discussing. DISCUSSING. But I'm not hopeful any meaningful dialogue will come from it.
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Old 02-08-2020, 03:16 PM   #227
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I think a lot of people liked to assume the same things, but what we're seeing now is less the Democrats "going crazy", and more the average person coming around to realizing that they're really just as bad as Republicans from a different direction. They've always told Pretty Lies to "get over" with people but because they were The Nice People, it was easy to paint them as the good guys. Now, in their zealotry to hurt Trump at any cost, they've become more transparent, and while nothing's really changed it just kind of surprises people who believed in them for whatever reason that they could be just as petty and cutthroat and dishonest and whatever as the people they're supposed to be better than.

I don't think they "went crazy", I think they just let their facade slip and people noticed.
there is probably alot of truth to this. but I'd like to believe at least ONE side of the coin could be considered the good guys. rather depressing to think both are evil and corrupt.
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Old 02-08-2020, 04:39 PM   #228
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there is probably alot of truth to this. but I'd like to believe at least ONE side of the coin could be considered the good guys. rather depressing to think both are evil and corrupt.
But it is the truth.
Both sides are rich and corrupt. It doesn't make them cartoonishly evil, but you must understand, they are not here for you. They are for themselves and their families.
And this is normal, everyone will prioritize themselves and their loved ones over strangers.

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Honest question: do you guys not work hard? Would you turn down a raise because you willingly admit you're lazy?

If not, why aren't you all millionaires? Billionaires? Yes, they're successful, but you aren't. I'm certainly not that successful. How many of us are pulling down 7 figures or more a year?

Do you believe yourself lesser than them? Is there a natural discrepancy in humanity that neatly and ineffably organizes us into strata?

Or is this an injustice to which we should just turn a blind eye? Have we completely lost all will to fight for a bigger share of pie?

It's been put forth that minimum wage should be raised to $15. I've listened to people lose their minds over this. Leo mentioned that loan forgiveness would make people angry. Is this the same? Would a burger flipper owning a modest domicile and making ends meet really be that unbearable for those who live in the current system?

Or is it that we were meant to starve? Doomed to struggle and die like the worthless serfs we are?

Are the elite truly elite? Should the rich and powerful be held to a different set of rules?

Personally, I believe there's nuance here. And that we need to change and adapt with the times. These are things worth discussing. DISCUSSING. But I'm not hopeful any meaningful dialogue will come from it.
I am not millionaire because indeed I didn't work hard enough for this, because, I am lazy and because I find my current life fairly good already. I am a human of average standards. Maybe because I know what poverty and hunger are like.

Most people are afraid to change anything in their lives or don't believe that they are capable of something greater. So in a sense they do think they are lesser than elites, but this is on those people, not on elites. No-one should stand near your cradle and tell you that you should be decisive and fight for a better place under the sun. The fact people are sitting on their asses and keep crying about "injustice" is a prove that the problem is not in injustice, but in their fear, lazyness and lack of faith in their abilities.

Also, yes, some people are elite, because, they are better than others. On you want to say, that everyone can be Da Vinci, Einstein, Hawking, Tesla, Oppenheimer, Gates or Jobs?
Those people were special and as long as humanity is not made into sterile non-offensive average raceless, sexless dolls, those difference will always exist as well as inequality.

On the other side of the coin, those people move our society forward both in scientific and social ways. You wouldn't have modern technology and any kind of social progress and new ideas without them and you'd be doomed to die in some gutter, because, of Cholera or being sold into slavery or killed during another conquest of barbarians.

Some people are special and the only thing you can do about it accept it, with all the good and bad that comes with it. Or fight for the "just" (eternally stagnating) society, where no-one has individuality, because, having individuality means that you can rise above the crowd and this is, obviously, unjust.

The idea "everyone are unique - everyone are equal" is a horrible hypocrisy.
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Old 02-08-2020, 11:44 PM   #229
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I mean, yeah, a lot of people could be doing better, and certainly a lot of them have obstacles in their way that are beyond their control. But a lot of it IS in their control.

I'm no different. I was an average student. I could've gotten much better grades and pursued higher levels of education. Or gone to a trade school or something. I chose to play video games and collect comic books. I'm not good at saving money, I spend it on things which are undoubtedly frivolous, like toys and comics and games, because they make me happy Right Now and who knows if I'll get hit by a bus tomorrow. I could definitely do lots of things even now that would improve my life situation. Maybe I will one day.

I've spoken loud and often about how when I needed help from The System, they told me to get f*cked, and that's 100% true. But my own choices are My Own Choices. I'm accountable to my own self, and I've always looked at things that way. I know, for a fact, that if I didn't "waste" money, or got a second or third job, I'd have it a lot easier than I do. There's reasons why I choose to live the way I do, but it's ultimately all on me. If I was a minimum wage worker, and they raised the minimum wage, I'd simply end up blowing even more money on "junk" because that's how I am. And that's how a lot of people are, a lot of those people simply don't own their sh*t and prefer to point fingers.

There's a theory that if you put every single person at a neutral starting position financially, and then gave every individual, rich or poor, a million dollars to start with, no questions asked, no repayment, no strings, just "Here's a million dollars, Do What Thou Wilt", the people who were rich before will end up rich again, and the people who were poor will end up poor again. Because not ALL of being poor is because of circumstances; most of it really is just that people generally make poor decisions and don't like taking responsibility for them. Therefore, raising minimum wage isn't much more than a band-aid. Most people, in my experience, will just have a few bucks more to piss away. If they were driven enough to really "make it", they'd have left the minimum wage job in the rear view mirror in their 20s like you're kinda supposed to do.

Because again, there are grants, trade schools, night classes, and sh*t, EVERYONE knows a friend or family member who owns or runs a business, and while it might be rude to impose (or beg for a pat on the ass), it doesn't hurt to ask and the worst thing they can say is No. The vast majority of people simply don't pursue these readily-available resources for self-improvement. They just ask for more money. I get it, but... you can't rely on that. You can't wait for someone else to tell you you're "allowed" to move up a rung or two on the ladder. They won't. You have to invest in yourself, create value, and the rest will fall in line. IF you do the work.

The fact that 1. This country still has more billionaires per capita than anywhere else on Earth, AND 2. Our poorest people still enjoy a higher quality of life than the poor anywhere else in the world, means that enough things are in place to ensure that a person who is driven enough for success will get there eventually. I'm not saying everyone who isn't "making it" simply isn't trying, but a LOT of them aren't. It's all a matter of priority and choices.

A person who decides they'll do whatever it takes to create a standard of living they deem fair and acceptable simply won't take "No" for an answer until they get there. People get there every day. This is still just about the only place where a homeless runaway teen can grow up to become a worldwide celebrity and millionaire, so that tells me that some people really just need to light their own fire and not let it go out. If the game was THAT rigged, stuff like that simply couldn't happen, period.

Of course there are variables. Like it always helps to be born to a rich family, or have lots of connections. Those people will always start the game about ten spaces ahead of everyone else. But that's not anything new, and it's also never changing. People still come from Zero and make it to the top. What you tend to find about these types, the Zero-To-Hero types, is that they're not special, they're simply more driven than you or I. They took stock in their life, said "This Is Simply Not Acceptable", and never let go of that until they reached their personal goals.

You can do it. I can do it. I don't feel like it because I'm generally lazy and complacent. But it's not like the opportunities don't exist.

The ONLY thing I really feel skews things into unfairness, is that there's simply too many goddamn people, and what do you do about that? If a job has ten spots and 100 people apply, well, that sucks for those 90 other people but what can anyone do about it? BUT. Which of those people go home and pout, and which ones go to another job interview the same day, and another one the day after, is what separates the driven from the complacent. That's what I've seen and what I ultimately believe.

I'd like to see everyone do well, truly. But in my various jobs and other life experiences, I've become a little bit Randian about the whole thing. Everyone SAYS they're doing plenty to justify having more, but statistically that's a big fat lie. I mean, I work 6 days a week and sometimes I definitely feel like I deserve to be compensated more for it, even most times, but there's also a LOT that I could be doing that I'm simply not doing. And that's on me.

I'unno. Things are definitely skewed in favor of the Haves, but the Have-Nots and Have-Lesses aren't as helpless as they sometimes like to make people think. I've been Upper Middle-Class and Poor and in-between, and a lot of times, it's less about who's holding their thumb on you and more about what you AREN'T doing to improve yourself.

I'm rooting for everybody, though. I do believe that anyone driven enough can be a success. I've seen it. Maybe I'll even get there one day, who knows.
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Old 02-09-2020, 12:44 AM   #230
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Yeah, I agree with Sumac. I definitely could have applied myself more, focused and become any one of a number of things to be bringing in way more money than I make now. I still could, but I'm rather comfortable with where I am at the moment. There are even promotions I could accept right now within my company that would get me even more money... but probably more stress and responsibility. But I COULD.
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Old 02-09-2020, 01:29 AM   #231
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No, yeah, it's fine. I said the exact same thing but I don't get a shout-out. You're cool. You're a cool guy.

Just playin', playa. You know I love you.
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Old 02-09-2020, 01:33 AM   #232
Andrew NDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo656 View Post
No, yeah, it's fine. I said the exact same thing but I don't get a shout-out. You're cool. You're a cool guy.

Just playin', playa. You know I love you.
Hey, he said it first. Nobody gets a trophy for second place in these things. Well, maybe nowadays they do. You want a participation trophy?
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Old 02-09-2020, 01:43 AM   #233
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I'd settle for a handjob, just not from you. I ain't THAT drunk. HI-YOOOOOOOO!
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Old 02-09-2020, 09:49 AM   #234
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The problem with the "have's & have-not's" argument is how quickly we chew up and digest these conversations into a binary anatomy. Wealth falls on a spectrum and you have to remember that there are a lot of people who have done well with their lives but might live next door to you rather than a giant mansion. For all you know there are guys on this forum with a net worth in cash and assets of 1.2 mil, but we'd judge and allocate them based on the house they live in.

And so the point is that often these debates about the injustices of wealth in society are distilled down to such a common denominator that they aren't even accurate conversations anymore.

Just something to consider as we sort of collate what "wealth" in the United States truly is. This also illustrates the importance of a sustained middle class, which I think is the more important conversation. There's a spectrum of middle class as well, but generally speaking "the middle class" has a lot of people that complain about wealth but are living pretty well on their own. Now I suppose if we discuss the disparity between movie star wealth in California as centralized money versus Chicago poverty level, then you've got a truly unjust wealth distribution.
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Old 02-09-2020, 09:26 PM   #235
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Aw, c'mon, Brad... why?

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