Famed Batman Writer Denny O Neil passes away

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Leo656

See, I'm not sure that I totally agree. He's gotta be at least KINDA crazy.

I forget who, but in some article I read once where they had a real-life psych expert "analyze" comic book super-villains and try and actually "diagnose" them, I forget what they specifically said about Joker but the gist of it was, "Based on the things he's done, if he still had any human capacity whatsoever then he'd be completely suicidal with guilt and unable to even function," because all humans to some degree have empathy.

So he's either really very crazy or he's literally The Devil. Nobody who's done the things he's done would be able to live with themselves. He's way, way beyond being a sociopath or even a psychopath.

Of course, the author also took the chance to point out that this is exactly why nothing about comics is in any way realistic. Especially not "crazy" super-villains.

Right! You're right. The problem is... Joker's publishing history means that YES, he's been insane since the 70's... a killer clown... but in the 40's he was just a gimmicky criminal, murderous and more of a pulp villain.

In the 50's he was just wacky, like a mischievous clown because he was de-fanged, like everything else because of the Comics Code. In the 60's he continued that and then disappeared from publication for a while until Denny and Neal's 5-Way-Revenge. He was hinted at being crazy there but he was more just murderous and crafty.

It wasn't until Englehart/Rogers and those goddamned smiling fish that WE, the audience, knew he was insane...

Now, is it possible to have a Joker, as he's existed since the 70's, who is the crafty, murderous but not truly insane villain? I think it depends on the personal headcanon of the reader and which stories you read.

The Joker of the 70's and 80's COULD still get away with not being insane, perhaps... but by the 1990's? Harley's Joker? The man who shot Sarah Essen Gordon? I doubt it... By then he was the kind of villain that would filet his own face off... because he's CRAY-CRAY!

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

What's interesting to note is that The Shadow in a 1936 issue of The Shadow Magazine fought a 'mob boss in clown makeup' called 'The Joker' in the story 'The Grim Joker'.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Whatswiththeheadbands?

What's interesting to note is that The Shadow in a 1936 issue of The Shadow Magazine fought a 'mob boss in clown makeup' called 'The Joker' in the story 'The Grim Joker'.

And though that probably has nothing to do with the creation of The Joker, given Jerry Robinson's sources, it is ironic that Batman would be so inspired by The Shadow and yet they both would fight clowns.

Though IT SHOULDN"T really be surprising because IN PULP FICTION, clowns, heroic or villainous, are as common as dandelions in spring time.

There is even a pulp hero, long forgotten, called The Crimson Clown.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by Whatswiththeheadbands?

What's interesting to note is that The Shadow in a 1936 issue of The Shadow Magazine fought a 'mob boss in clown makeup' called 'The Joker' in the story 'The Grim Joker'.

The Shadow is a direct inspiration and I doubt it is a coincidence as far as the naming of the character. The Case of The Chemical Syndicate was an almost cliffsnotes version of a Shadow novella.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

The Shadow is a direct inspiration and I doubt it is a coincidence as far as the naming of the character. The Case of The Chemical Syndicate was an almost cliffsnotes version of a Shadow novella.

PARTNERS of PERIL Bill Finger stole it structurally, from top to bottom...

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

I've never thought that the 1936 story was copied in elements for The Joker from Batman (can't say the same for Partners Of Peril though). Fiction has always been littered with throw backs, plagiarism and homages to past properties. Some only sightly similar, and then some that could be argued are plagiarized (look up The Witcher vs Elric of Melnibone for example)

Back to the topic at hand, Denny O Neil was an incredible writer who understand the characters he wrote on an extremely deep level.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Whatswiththeheadbands?

I've never thought that the 1936 story was copied in elements for The Joker from Batman (can't say the same for Partners Of Peril though). Fiction has always been littered with throw backs, plagiarism and homages to past properties. Some only sightly similar, and then some that could be argued are plagiarized (look up The Witcher vs Elric of Melnibone for example)

Back to the topic at hand, Denny O Neil was an incredible writer who understand the characters he wrote on an extremely deep level.

Indeed. I'm still waiting on Marvel to reprint Denny's Spider-man run. When I spoke to him I asked him about when they might reprint his year or so +1 annual of Spidey. He told me that sometimes he felt like his Marvel work was disrespected or despised because DC reprints so much of his stuff and Marvel rarely does. That was before Iron Man 2008 came out... then they reprinted the Iron Monger arc and Denny's Iron Man run.

Who knows IF his feelings changed BUT I get the feeling he had a grudge against Marvel for a LONG TIME.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

Indeed. I'm still waiting on Marvel to reprint Denny's Spider-man run. When I spoke to him I asked him about when they might reprint his year or so +1 annual of Spidey. He told me that sometimes he felt like his Marvel work was disrespected or despised because DC reprints so much of his stuff and Marvel rarely does. That was before Iron Man 2008 came out... then they reprinted the Iron Monger arc and Denny's Iron Man run.

Who knows IF his feelings changed BUT I get the feeling he had a grudge against Marvel for a LONG TIME.

Why was his run on Amazing Spider-Man so short? I wondered if it was politics at Marvel as it was in flux management wise with rotating executives until Jim Shooter took over. This is before James Owsley got his undeserved position and started throwing his weight around too.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

Why was his run on Amazing Spider-Man so short? I wondered if it was politics at Marvel as it was in flux management wise with rotating executives until Jim Shooter took over. This is before James Owsley got his undeserved position and started throwing his weight around too.

Like MOST of Denny's Marvel work, he was a fill-in writer on Spider-man. In fact, the only thing I'm aware of that he worked on for a long while at Marvel was Iron Man. Denny's the guy that ran with the alcoholism angle for Tony Stark. David Micelinie started the Demon In a Bottle but Denny took that little detail and milked it for a long while.

Speaking of fill-ins, Denny's Daredevil run followed FRANK MILLER and man, it is a beautiful shiny gem. Several one-in-done Matt Murdock stories that are JUST AS GOOD as Frank's work.

[PizzaPower1985]

Not gonna be here much til I get better but here... Wanted to share this 2020 Comic-Con tribute:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v6R5ry7n9I

[Hamato Yoshi]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F85QKfC8h2U

The scary thing about some villains is you can see traits from real life people like Anders Breivik

Most people pass away at age 70-80 , Parobeck was only like 30 when he died

Still , RIP Denny