Have you accepted the show probably won't continue after season 5?

[WebLurker]

Originally Posted by Shiro Kame

The Space arc pretty much woke me up to how bad the series got. For starters, World of Wyrm only existed because Casey Jones was portrayed as a thrill-seeking imbecile obsessed with "cool" things. And Wyrm ended up annoying the hell out of me to the point I wanted to beat the crap out of him.

I liked the show as a one-off adventure with some good visual gags, personally (kind of a Q episode from Star Trek with an evil Q). But, yeah, if you didn't care for Casey's personality or Wyrm, I'd see why you wouldn't like the show. (I will argue to the end of time that the method of defeating Wyrm was really clever, though.)

Originally Posted by Shiro Kame

And Mona and Raph's romance felt rushed.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Shiro Kame

Yeah, and they also had a bad habit of recreating characters that the only similarities to the original they're porting is the names (Neutrinos, Mona Lisa, Hun...Felt like an insult to the originals)...

Don't most versions reimagine old characters? I'm not familiar with the original Neutrinos to venture an opinion. I will concede I like the original Mona Lisa better, but I like new Hun better than the original character.

Originally Posted by Shiro Kame

The finales could have had more build up and foreshadowing. However, seasons 3 and 4 had too much filler and not enough building-up to the finales/mid-finales that I could not get excited and amped enough for them. Season 3's finale is a worst offender since the Triceratons and Kraang only appeared in the last two episodes so it was mostly based on shock.

I guess there was enough buildup for it to work for me. I really liked the Triceratons, though, so that may have been a factor.

Originally Posted by Shiro Kame

And their way of getting rid of hte Kraang was too clear-cut with them not even moving from the lair even though the Kraang had discovered the location, and them being so damn sure that the Kraang couldn't come back to Earth, even though they didn't show any justification why they couldn't.

Do you mean when the Triceraton's defeated the Kraang during "Earth's Last Stand"? If Kraang Prime was destroyed with the Technodrome, maybe that could be a factor? (Unless the Kraang come back again, I will agree this is an unanswered question.)

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by WebLurker

I will concede I like the original Mona Lisa better, but I like new Hun better than the original character.

Why would anyone be more attached to the original Mona Lisa than the original Hun? Hun was a major character in the show he came from and Mona Lisa was a one-off character, she was pretty much as close to a blank slate you can get.

[Vicky82]

Originally Posted by Shiro Kame

And Mona and Raph's romance felt rushed.

The romance felt rushed because Mona Lisa was only in 3 episodes, if she was in a lot more episodes of the space arc then the romance would of been spread out more.

[PApagreg]

Originally Posted by Vicky82

The romance felt rushed because Mona Lisa was only in 3 episodes, if she was in a lot more episodes of the space arc then the romance would of been spread out more.

I think Shiro kinda guessed that Vicky.

[Shiro Kame]

Originally Posted by WebLurker

Don't most versions reimagine old characters? I'm not familiar with the original Neutrinos to venture an opinion. I will concede I like the original Mona Lisa better, but I like new Hun better than the original character.



I guess there was enough buildup for it to work for me. I really liked the Triceratons, though, so that may have been a factor.



Do you mean when the Triceraton's defeated the Kraang during "Earth's Last Stand"? If Kraang Prime was destroyed with the Technodrome, maybe that could be a factor? (Unless the Kraang come back again, I will agree this is an unanswered question.)

As someone who grew up watching the complete TMNT 1987 series in her mid-teens along with falling back in love with TMNT 2003, seeing how they butchered characters like Mona Lisa, the Neutrinos, and Hun was aggravating.
The Neutrinos were space teens who fought against Krang, but here they were just personality-lacking memory stealers who actually HURT the
turtles.
Mona was a female mutant who also had a personality and backstory within her first episode. While she and Raph did have an attraction to each other, they didn't get together immediately. However, in 2012, she's an alien for some reason who in her first episode, along with SAL, end up nearly f***ing over the turtles because they have no communication skills whatsoever.
And don't get me started with Hun. In 2003, he was one of Shredder's strongest and loyalist henchmen. He didn't lower in threat until some time in Season 2 or 3. And when he came back in Season 4, he was an awesome villain who won in both appearances and never got beaten. Yeah, and he also had connections with Casey as an awesome backstory. In 2012, he's only a threat in his debut and an evil Bruce Lee knockoff...Who does next to nothing in Seasons 3-4.
If you're going to recycle an old character from a previous incarnation, then you need to have the same feel/"spirit" the old character did, otherwise it feels like a huge spit in the face. (especially with the Neutrinos...)

I guess I prefer solid story arcs over one-shot episodes, like Sonic the Hedgehog SatAM's season 2 with a huge build-up to Doomsday. It just got me geared up and wondering what the villain was going to do and how much danger the heroes were going to face, hoping they would win.

*Facepalm* I was referring to Battle for New York. You know, the one where they use the damn teleporter to whisk the demutated humans back to NY, while getting rid of Kraang back to their old dimension. The reason it was stupid was that they did not show any way of preventing the Kraang from going back to Earth. It's already shown they have all this portal technology, and they don't do anything about it. And then they move back into the lair, even though it was discovered by Kraang Sub-Prime, who may still have the co-ordinates to the lair. In other words, it was poorly executed mid-finale with no damn logic that made my brain hurt.

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

If you mean, being endlessly toy and sight gag and camp-pandering... then I hope you're wrong. But then I really have no horses in strange races of "Gawrsh, how will I like the latest TMNT cartoon now in my 30s when these cartoons are aimed at kids in their single digits." And I shouldn't. These aren't for me. Or you.

As far as I'm concerned, Nick can do whatever they want or go as crazy and wacky and campy as they want, new or old-revisited, in any of the cartoons for toddlers or the "Half Shell Heroes" for the even littler kids/the adult pedos/fetishists or whatever as they like. God knows they've paid enough for the right to do so. All I'd like to see is them acknowledge at some point, truly acknowledge and encourage to flourish, in some media, is the TMNT for "grownups." Because they've been there since 1984.

It doesn't even need to be the driving force. It just needs to not be pretended like it doesn't exist or ever did, for a moment since 2009. It did. It worked. It's virtually the one thing left that hasn't been put on a mass public slab and failed.

If there was only a :hearty applause: emoticon on this board... you would surely deserve it

The problem is though is that too many people still (possibly unintentionally) reinforce the idea that 'TMNT is for kids.' Hell, we get people (often parents) complaining directly to Nick if the cartoon gets too dark or scarily serious, because then their kids can't watch it. Nick has to be given the message that there are enough people that are interested in watching a iteration of TMNT that is not kid friendly, whose main objective is not to shill toys (the biggest driver of this problem) and that their current kid focus is too narrow and likely antiquated.

People have to vote with their wallets, and they have to complain. One way this worked was with a previously kid-orientated company, Nintendo, whose franchises (like Zelda) were dropping slowly in popularity over time. They were growing too kid focused, as a result, the first generation who had grown up with them were gradually drifting off to more 'grown up' stuff like Skyrim and Dark Souls. (There was a brief revival with Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, with many people liking the greater realism and darker tones.) So after their latest game LoZ: Skyward Sword flopped (and people complaining about it) Nintendo changed direction. No longer keeping a primary focus on children, they started going for the older gamers, re-aiming their games, advertising and console towards people of the first generation when these main franchises came out. And the response has been incredible (especially with Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild.)

The biggest reason I mention this is that companies do listen, especially when it comes to money and fan interest. The biggest problem is though, is that there are still too many people not showing Nick that TMNT can be more grown up, that it doesn't have to be kid orientated to keep people. People bug for more goofy Fred Wolf content, and parents of young kids still are allowed to the loudest and most dominant voice dictating content.

[WebLurker]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Why would anyone be more attached to the original Mona Lisa than the original Hun? Hun was a major character in the show he came from and Mona Lisa was a one-off character, she was pretty much as close to a blank slate you can get.

I never found 2k3 Hun to be that interesting a character, so there is that.

Originally Posted by Shiro Kame

As someone who grew up watching the complete TMNT 1987 series in her mid-teens along with falling back in love with TMNT 2003, seeing how they butchered characters like Mona Lisa, the Neutrinos, and Hun was aggravating.
The Neutrinos were space teens who fought against Krang, but here they were just personality-lacking memory stealers who actually HURT the
turtles.
Mona was a female mutant who also had a personality and backstory within her first episode. While she and Raph did have an attraction to each other, they didn't get together immediately. However, in 2012, she's an alien for some reason who in her first episode, along with SAL, end up nearly f***ing over the turtles because they have no communication skills whatsoever.
And don't get me started with Hun. In 2003, he was one of Shredder's strongest and loyalist henchmen. He didn't lower in threat until some time in Season 2 or 3. And when he came back in Season 4, he was an awesome villain who won in both appearances and never got beaten. Yeah, and he also had connections with Casey as an awesome backstory. In 2012, he's only a threat in his debut and an evil Bruce Lee knockoff...Who does next to nothing in Seasons 3-4.
If you're going to recycle an old character from a previous incarnation, then you need to have the same feel/"spirit" the old character did, otherwise it feels like a huge spit in the face. (especially with the Neutrinos...)

I see.

Originally Posted by Shiro Kame

I guess I prefer solid story arcs over one-shot episodes, like Sonic the Hedgehog SatAM's season 2 with a huge build-up to Doomsday. It just got me geared up and wondering what the villain was going to do and how much danger the heroes were going to face, hoping they would win.

I like a balance,

Originally Posted by Shiro Kame

*Facepalm* I was referring to Battle for New York. You know, the one where they use the damn teleporter to whisk the demutated humans back to NY, while getting rid of Kraang back to their old dimension. The reason it was stupid was that they did not show any way of preventing the Kraang from going back to Earth. It's already shown they have all this portal technology, and they don't do anything about it. And then they move back into the lair, even though it was discovered by Kraang Sub-Prime, who may still have the co-ordinates to the lair. In other words, it was poorly executed mid-finale with no damn logic that made my brain hurt.

I do agree with you on this. Retaking New York should've been more episodes.

[victory_angel]

I think with going back to the Old lair was because it would naturally be assumed by the Kraang that the Turtles would have gone to find a new home once their old one was destroyed. That's why they had that robot sentry there making sure the Turtles didn't return.

I mean take Karai when she was brainwashed. Why didn't she just go to the Turtle's lair and kill them there while they slept?

Answer: Two reasons, one she was a predator so it would have been too easy to do so. She seemed to favor the thrill of the hunt and seeing her pray suffer before her eyes before they expire rather than going for the quick kills.

and two in order to bend to the Shredder's will, the Brainworms would have likely altered and suppressed any memories she would have had of the Turtles as her friends. So that means any memories of the way to the lair would have been suppressed as well.

Once the Kraang were out of the city, they didn't assume the Kraang wouldn't be back someday. They just wanted the Kraang out of the city so the humans can begin to repopulate it and get things back to some semblance of normal before the Kraang returned.

With the old lair, the Turtles just needed to fix things up, have Donnie updates done to the security system.

And the whole thing with Zog, yeah they had their moments in the episode where they said "The Kraang are gone" but that only helps illustrate their surprise when they find the Kraang have indeed returned.

The only way the Turtles will truly leave their lair behind is when the lair and everything in it is destroyed for good. That means their childhoods, their worldly possessions, everything that is part of their memory of that place is dust and gone. The only thing the Turtles have to their name is each other (Chompy, Ice Cream Kitty, and Timothy may be saved or lost as a result.)

If something like this happens I'd wager

Chompy manages to get out with Raph and everyone else.

Donnie attempts to save Timothy, his brothers tell him that it's too late for Timothy and they need to get out. Donnie insists on saving him because "Tim is his responcibility" Leo and Raph have to either end up forcibly dragging Don away from him or Donnie is nearly killed trying to save him. The end result is that Tim does survive and escape, but everyone assumes he was destroyed.

Ice Cream Kitty, sadly might be the only real tragedy. Mikey would want to help her, but the others would tell him their isn't time they need to get out now. So once the dust settles, Mikey finds the fridge miraculously survived and he goes to see if Ice Cream Kitty is there. She is, unfortunately she is melting away. Mikey tries to encurrage her to stay together, they will get her to a nice freezer where she could stay cold. April then would have to break it to Mikey that she would melt away before they got her there. Ice Cream kitty then gives Mikey a happy, sounding meow as way of saying "Good bye, I'm glad to have known you." and then melts away.

[Penst0ck]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

Ice Cream Kitty, sadly might be the only real tragedy. Mikey would want to help her, but the others would tell him their isn't time they need to get out now. So once the dust settles, Mikey finds the fridge miraculously survived and he goes to see if Ice Cream Kitty is there. She is, unfortunately she is melting away. Mikey tries to encurrage her to stay together, they will get her to a nice freezer where she could stay cold. April then would have to break it to Mikey that she would melt away before they got her there. Ice Cream kitty then gives Mikey a happy, sounding meow as way of saying "Good bye, I'm glad to have known you." and then melts away.

Ouch, my heart.

[TheJ-manTurtleMan]

I made a video discussing my thoughts about season 5 possibly being the last season, and a few other issues I have with TMNT currently. If anyone is interested

https://youtu.be/DifDsFIJ424

[PApagreg]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

I think with going back to the Old lair was because it would naturally be assumed by the Kraang that the Turtles would have gone to find a new home once their old one was destroyed. That's why they had that robot sentry there making sure the Turtles didn't return.

I mean take Karai when she was brainwashed. Why didn't she just go to the Turtle's lair and kill them there while they slept?

Answer: Two reasons, one she was a predator so it would have been too easy to do so. She seemed to favor the thrill of the hunt and seeing her pray suffer before her eyes before they expire rather than going for the quick kills.

Well not a lot of predators are known for seeking the "thrill of the hunt", the term hunter would be a better word for it and even if the above was true how come Shredder never at least asked Karai to where the Hamato's lair was. I think he would at least take the advantage of ambushing Splinter.

Originally Posted by victory_angel

and two in order to bend to the Shredder's will, the Brainworms would have likely altered and suppressed any memories she would have had of the Turtles as her friends. So that means any memories of the way to the lair would have been suppressed as well.

Well there wasn't any indication she didn't know them or her memories were being tampered.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by PApagreg

Well not a lot of predators are known for seeking the "thrill of the hunt", the term hunter would be a better word for it and even if the above was true how come Shredder never at least asked Karai to where the Hamato's lair was. I think he would at least take the advantage of ambushing Splinter.



Well there wasn't any indication she didn't know them or her memories were being tampered.

I didn't say she didn't know them. I said she didn't know them as her friends, as her mind had been forcibly reset to see them as enemies. And also when Leo or April were trying to tell her she had a worm controlling her she would insist they were lying. Much like Karai accused Leo of lying when he was telling her Splinter he was her true father.

As for her memories being tampered with, it is subtle and not done outright. For example, there is Karai calling the Shredder father even though she knows the Shredder isn't her father at all. And then when she's gloating to Leo about how she doesn't really care about any of them, she only cares about Splinter and wants to see him suffer for what he has done. And as she says that she turns one hand into a snake implying she is being forced to believe that Splinter caused her mutation.

[Vegita-San]

the real reason they went to the old layer is because it would take too much time and effort to first design a new set and then build it.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

the real reason they went to the old layer is because it would take too much time and effort to first design a new set and then build it.

And budget, they did say they have a budget for only 1 background a day which is while they keep recycling a lot of the same sets.

Maybe down the road they might make a new background set for the lair, if they have reason for it.

[PApagreg]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

I didn't say she didn't know them. I said she didn't know them as her friends, as her mind had been forcibly reset to see them as enemies. And also when Leo or April were trying to tell her she had a worm controlling her she would insist they were lying. Much like Karai accused Leo of lying when he was telling her Splinter he was her true father.

I said that as an example of how the writers could show how the brainworms are messing with Karai's memory, maybe I mis worded or something.

Originally Posted by victory_angel

As for her memories being tampered with, it is subtle and not done outright. For example, there is Karai calling the Shredder father even though she knows the Shredder isn't her father at all. And then when she's gloating to Leo about how she doesn't really care about any of them, she only cares about Splinter and wants to see him suffer for what he has done. And as she says that she turns one hand into a snake implying she is being forced to believe that Splinter caused her mutation.

I saw that as more brainwashing than actual loss of memory, she seemed pretty comfortable with being part snake.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by WebLurker

I never found 2k3 Hun to be that interesting a character, so there is that.

I wouldn't really call Mona Lisa an "interesting character", potential to be one maybe but seeing how they never went anywhere with her, all we're left with is a half-baked idea. The only reason she wasn't entirely a Proto-Venus, is that Peter Laird vetoed it.

I don't really mind what Nickelodeon did to either Mona or Hun, since both are reasonably close to the original concept. But with Hun there are at least some expectations of who he is, what did anyone honestly except from Mona Lisa that we didn't get? Hair? Some backstory involving pirates and nukes? There wasn't much to this character aside from flirting with Raph, and we got that.

[TigerClaw]

Originally Posted by neatoman

I wouldn't really call Mona Lisa an "interesting character", potential to be one maybe but seeing how they never went anywhere with her, all we're left with is a half-baked idea. The only reason she wasn't entirely a Proto-Venus, is that Peter Laird vetoed it.

I don't really mind what Nickelodeon did to either Mona or Hun, since both are reasonably close to the original concept. But with Hun there are at least some expectations of who he is, what did anyone honestly except from Mona Lisa that we didn't get? Hair? Some backstory involving pirates and nukes? There wasn't much to this character aside from flirting with Raph, and we got that.

What the Nick show likes to do is create new characters, and then slapping the names of an original character on them.

[Jephael]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

As far as I'm concerned, Nick can do whatever they want or go as crazy and wacky and campy as they want, new or old-revisited, in any of the cartoons for toddlers or the "Half Shell Heroes" for the even littler kids/the adult pedos/fetishists or whatever as they like. God knows they've paid enough for the right to do so. All I'd like to see is them acknowledge at some point, truly acknowledge and encourage to flourish, in some media, is the TMNT for "grownups."

Don't we get enough "grown up" stuff in the IDW comics? That series has had all sorts of intense sh*t happen that would never fly in a show for little kids! Everybody's got their preferences and some of us like things a tad bit more lighthearted than others.

[TigerClaw]

Originally Posted by Jephael

Don't we get enough "grown up" stuff in the IDW comics? That series has had all sorts of intense sh*t happen that would never fly in a show for little kids! Everybody's got their preferences and some of us like things a tad bit more lighthearted than others. Lets all just be thankful that the original comics get paid homage as much as they have been.

Yeah, Many of us are more into the lighthearted stuff, even the IDW comics had its lighthearted moments.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by PApagreg

I saw that as more brainwashing than actual loss of memory, she seemed pretty comfortable with being part snake.

Certain memories would be suppressed or changed by the brainworms themselves in order to get her to believe what the Shredder wants.

Suppression isn't memory loss itself, but rather the blocking of certain moments from memory so that way you are forced to see the picture someone wants. The memories themselves are still there subconsciously, but the mind itself has been changed to believe another reality.

That is something like that is done in a brainwashing washing process. Mostly through hypnosis.