TMNT (2003 cartoon) Talkback Thread Collection

[AquaParade]

I’m starting this series over from episode 1 to see how I feel about it. I may drop out after a few episodes if I lose interest, but hopefully not.

I enjoyed it as a kid, but ended up feeling like it was an ambitious but overall mediocre adaptation of Mirage.
But now that many years have passed and my expectations have changed, I’m curious to see if I can appreciate it for everything it is, rather than fixate on the shortcomings. We’ll see.

If nothing else, it should be pretty nostalgic by this point.

[Leo656]

I've tried a couple of times. My problem ends up being that I do have the Season 1 Part 1 and 2 DVDs but everything else is the original 4Kids DVDs, and when the episodes start getting all out of order and I have to start switching discs around to watch things properly I end up getting aggravated. So I've never done a full run of it.

Season 1 always really surprises me with how good it is, though. It drops a bit after that but I maintain that Season 1 is very, very strong.

[AquaParade]

Interesting. I remember liking the shredder strikes back a lot back in the day, but the rest is fuzzy. I think I enjoyed a few episodes in season 3 or 4 as well.

I started a free trial for Paramount+, which is how I have access to the episodes, but I also saw that they are uploaded on YouTube, albeit a little fuzzier.

[Leo656]

I mean I'm pretty sure I got through Season 3 or so at least once. Back then there also was no other way to watch the show even in theory. So I'd end up putting in a disc, watching one episode, switching discs, watching one or two episodes, switching BACK to the earlier disc for one episode... it was madness. I went to the trouble of making a list of every episode in-order so I wouldn't screw up, because originally I just watched the DVDs as soon as I bought them but very quickly realized the order was all screwed up. Very frustrating.

I'm also very bad about doing marathon runs of TV shows because I'd generally rather play video games than watch TV, anymore. There's a ton of stuff "everyone has seen" like Game of Thrones that I just can't be assed with because I still haven't even played Mass Effect and I'd rather take that time investment and put it towards Doing rather than Watching.

I keep telling myself that one day I'll do the series at least through Ninja Tribunal. I completely don't care about the Fast Forward or Back to the Sewers stuff.

[AquaParade]

There is a pretty good retrospective of the series on YouTube and they go over how awful the dvd releases were in terms of episode order. I think it was uploaded by “Jays reviews” or something. It’s pretty much what inspired me to give this show a second try.

I avoid most television shows as well, just because they are such big investments. However, I do find myself more or less “watching” a lot of stuff while I multitask and do other things.

But yeah, no way I go past season 4, even if I somehow make it all the way there.

[Leo656]

Oh, yeah, the TV is always on but I'm usually reading or writing or something. So it's always Family Guy, American Dad, King of the Hill and Simpsons reruns because I don't have to pay attention.

Sometimes my wife puts on Bob's Burgers or The Cleveland Show and then I REALLY don't pay attention.

But yeah, more into games now. TV just feels too passive. I've grown to hate Summer because "Shark Week" lasts ten weeks now and I'm "not allowed" to do anything with the TV until we get done hearing about sharks having two dicks for the 500th time.

[neatoman]

This show is more or less what got me interested in the franchise. I was aware that there was a previous show and after having heard some people talk about their nostalgia for the franchise, I decided to watch both shows in parallels. The 2003 show was obviously the more interesting to me.

[CyberCubed]

I've seen the series in full at least 10 times. It's not that hard to marathon a show.

[Leo656]

If you have nothing at all going on outside of that, sure.

Some of us occasionally see the sun.

[AquaParade]

Not only are most shows super long, but I’m always worried that they are going to drag the plot out for several seasons, rather then pace things well, get to the point, and wrap up a series that is bringing is a ton of money.

I’m more willing to sit down for a long movie because I know it has an end in sight.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Some of us occasionally see the sun.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Now that is a classic piece of animation.

I’ve been watching season 1 as I work this evening and I’m probably about to eat some crow unless the show starts going downhill.
It’s actually pretty good. I probably like it more than 2K12.
I’ve sort of badmouthed it over the years. I’ve called it a neutered version of Mirage - and that’s true - but it’s still a lot of fun. The serialized nature, the pacing, and the way the show plants seeds is all well done. It even looks good on occasion, despite looking like a low-budget children’s cartoon (which it is) 95% of the time.

I mean, I still have a hard time not comparing it to Mirage and seeing it as lesser because of that, and I still could critique this show all day, and it’s still not my ideal version of TMNT, but my biggest takeaway from watching it again after all this time, is that I’ve been a little too harsh on it. At the end of the day, it’s done with a fair amount of care and it feels pure to tmnt. There’s a lot to enjoy.
….At least in the first half of the first season.

[Leo656]

I definitely think Season 1 was the peak. It was still alright after that but they really came out of the gate swinging and it was clearly hard to sustain the momentum. As it went on from Season 2 and beyond it really does start to become "just" a toy commercial.

I also think it definitely plays much better with people like me who couldn't care less about Mirage. It's "fine" and I respect it for what it is but I've had more exciting bowel movements than 99% of what those books present. Mirage TMNT does not thrill me, it's mostly as dry as a rice cracker sandwich and I read comics to be entertained. BUT, at least it's not goofy vapid nonsense like 99% of the rest of TMNT. I respect it, it's just not for me.

So yeah, if you're Mirage-Agnostic then 4Kids plays pretty well, just by taking some of the more prominent elements from it and "jazzing them up" for mass consumption. As an "adaptation", though, yeah, it's not great at being that. As something merely "inspired by" that otherwise does its own thing, though, I think it's pretty good.

I mean, I think it's great that they put Mirage flavor into a kids' cartoon and I think that was good and even necessary. But a "straight" Mirage adaptation would never work for a Saturday morning kids' cartoon so I think it's a weird hang-up for anyone to have.

Now, a series of straight-to-DVD films based on certain Mirage arcs, done 1:1... yeah, that'd be neat. For a kids' show, though, I think 4Kids was as close to Mirage as ever could (or should) have been done.

[ABrown]

When I purchased the early seasons, I was still purchasing VHS. And then when the first couple of seasons got proper DVD releases, I felt it was too soon to double dip. Especially after spending like $10 a piece for like 15 or so "volume" releases. But when the first three seasons became available digitally, I went ahead and purchased those to watch in place on the VHS tapes. So now the only back and forth to do with the DVDs is the first half of season four. I think it's 11 episodes, before the "season 4" DVD set.

[AquaParade]

I find it an impossible hangup not to have when it’s literally adapting Mirage. Seeing something you love replicated, except neutered for the safety of children’s consumption is going to lead to some mixed feelings.
That’s not to say 2K3 doesn’t bring anything to the table, but I’m sorry, seeing Leo slapping ninjas with his swords instead of slashing, in what is essentially the adaption of Leonardo #1, makes it less tense, less dangerous, and less thrilling.

But I would probably enjoy the show more had I never read Mirage or known of it. Although, that in itself would alter my perception of tmnt entirely, so it’s hard to imagine.

One thing I love about this show is the way they handle C’hrell/Oroku Saki. It’s a really fun twist on the classic story, and allows the show to branch out on it’s own a little. Just like the reincarnation element of IDW, it’s not something I need in every version of TMNT, but it’s just the kind of fun twist that I think keeps a franchise fresh without losing the spirit in the process.

[Leo656]

It's not "literally" adapting Mirage any more than BvS "literally" adapted either "The Dark Knight Returns" or "The Death of Superman" arcs.

They took some elements nearly word-for-word and shot-for-shot and stapled them together in a completely different way to tell a completely different story. But that is not the same thing at all.

.......Aren't you also the guy who's always telling people to get over their "This thing deviates from the source material" hang-ups because "It's not under any obligation to cater to hardcores and purists" and that it's okay to "remix" said material in service of reaching a broader audience? I'm confused. Although I guess having a selective bias is perfectly okay so long as the person admits to it. Just saying, I'm a little confused.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Leo656

They took some elements nearly word-for-word and shot-for-shot and stapled them together in a completely different way to tell a completely different story. But that is not the same thing at all.

I'm gonna have to disagree here. That might be correct when we're talking about the initial fight with Shredder or how the first Leatherhead story somehow became two different episodes. However, the Rat King episode, Fish People episode, Savanti's return and Kirby homage all overlap quite decently with the actual plot of the comics they're adapting. It's true that most adaptations are very loose, they kind of have to be if it has changes like Shredder being an alien, but that doesn't mean they're always that loose.

Edit: An apology is in order here, I was under the assumption the conversation had not shifted from the 2003 show to the 2012 show. In the case of the 2012 show, yes, the adaptations are usually way too loose to be considered direct adaptions aside from a few scenes.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Leo656

It's not "literally" adapting Mirage any more than BvS "literally" adapted either "The Dark Knight Returns" or "The Death of Superman" arcs.

They took some elements nearly word-for-word and shot-for-shot and stapled them together in a completely different way to tell a completely different story. But that is not the same thing at all.

.......Aren't you also the guy who's always telling people to get over their "This thing deviates from the source material" hang-ups because "It's not under any obligation to cater to hardcores and purists" and that it's okay to "remix" said material in service of reaching a broader audience? I'm confused. Although I guess having a selective bias is perfectly okay so long as the person admits to it. Just saying, I'm a little confused.

I can see you’re taking this personally so I’ll try not to insult your favorite cartoon or whatever. I’m just saying how I feel about a tv show, man, let’s try to remember that.

I’m glad you pay attention to what I say around here, because it keeps me invested, and I don’t mind explaining some of the nuance.

So, in regards to deviating from the source material, I don’t mind it. Look at the very post you are quoting - it points out how I enjoy the remixed aspect of Oroku Saki here and how I like the reincarnation angle of IDW - both of which take huge liberties from the source material. I hope that is still clear.

But, as also clearly pointed out in my post above lol, the harder you lean into literal adaptation of material, the dicier things become. So, like I said above, when we are literally seeing Mirage’s “Leonardo #1” play out, except for the fact that Leonardo is using his “deadly weapons” to slap everyone, while his life is on the line, is very jarring. They want to take a story from the comics that is cutthroat, but make it suitable for children. You can’t always have your cake and eat it too.

It’s a delicate balance at the end of the day. The closer you get to something, the easier it is to botch. That’s why I highlighted a change I really like and critiqued a segment which tries to adapt something much more closely, but loses something in the process.
One of these examples was a brilliant way of dealing with and adapting to the confines of censorship and one was not.

Geese, you’re lucky I like to type because you really don’t deserve the reply with the way you behave. Don’t come at me like I banged your wife, over a cartoon discussion, please.

I’m happy to explain my position when you’re not attempting some type of “hypocrite!” ambush, right from the jump lol.
You don’t have to agree with me but I’m pretty consistent, happy to explain myself, and even willing to admit when I’m wrong, as I did at the very start of my conversation in this thread a few hours ago, by coming clean and admitting I was too hard on this show.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by neatoman

I'm gonna have to disagree here. That might be correct when we're talking about the initial fight with Shredder or how the first Leatherhead story somehow became two different episodes. However, the Rat King episode, Fish People episode, Savanti's return and Kirby homage all overlap quite decently with the actual plot of the comics they're adapting. It's true that most adaptations are very loose, they kind of have to be if it has changes like Shredder being an alien, but that doesn't mean they're always that loose.

And some scenes in BvS copy imagery and dialog 1:1 from the DKR book. That happens. It's nice that they bother, sure.

Still not "an adaptation" in any way, shape or form. Just because some of those translated elements were translated quite literally. It's only adapting ELEMENTS. It still uses them in service to a much different larger story, in the end. Same with 4Kids.

If you sit down to watch 4Kids TMNT for "a Mirage Adaptation", or BvS for a "Death of Superman/Dark Knight Returns adaptation", you're gonna have a bad time. That is not the correct way to engage with the material. Those things are just a bone for hardcores, and it's good that they did them. But if you ask the people who actually made the 4Kids cartoon whether or not they were "adapting Mirage", I suspect their explanation would be rather close to how I've described it. "We took some elements but most of it's a remix of those elements, not a literal adaptation". If you asked them flat-out "Was 'adapting Mirage' the entire point?" I'm fairly sure they would say "No."

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

I can see you’re taking this personally so I’ll try not to insult your favorite cartoon or whatever. I’m just saying how I feel about a tv show, man, let’s try to remember that.

No, I simply asked a question and the rest is you projecting and flying off the handle for no reason.

I simply pointed out how in this one instance, absolute fidelity seems to matter a lot to you, and otherwise you tell people it shouldn't matter at all. I wasn't playing games with you.

You could have probably found a way to explain the discrepancy without losing your sh*t.

I also haven't watched a single episode of this show in about two years, so no, I can promise you I really don't care that much. My emotional investment isn't as great as you think it is. I'm glad you like it more now than you used to, but it frankly doesn't affect me at all. All I did was point out how it's not a "Mirage Adaptation" and why I'm not sure why it even matters. That's It.

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Don’t come at me like I banged your wife, over a cartoon discussion, please.

I didn't, Slugger.

I'm guessing that when you were in school you were that nerd who always ran the class projector. Because you LOVE to project. It's like your Very Favorite Thing, even.