US citizens crowdfund the border wall

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

They like to tell people that illegals do the jobs that nobody wants.

Not all immigrants are illegal, no matter what jobs they perform.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Ya missed the point there, Schecky. The wall is more a symbolic middle finger to Mexico than anything. Nobody said it would "get rid of" those already here, or that it would do more than act as a placebo to assuage the sensibilities of those who don't realize that the majority of illegal immigrants from anywhere but Central or South America are brought in BY DRUG CARTELS AND SEX TRAFFICERS. Who all have their own methods that basically make a joke of walls or other "barriers".

By this logic, Ms. Buzz, we can abolish borders all together, since illegal groups will always find a way to smug illegals in the country.

Also, no-one said and most people don't think that THE WALL will stop illegal immigration all together or that it will be a panacea against it.

Also, sex traffickers nowadays called "sex workers". Get on with the program!

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

But said wall WILL be a barrier to OTHER "immigrants" who literally have neither knowledge nor concern for artificial bountries of man. See also, last remaining US Jaguars and Ocelots. To name just a couple. Oh yeah, and that wall? Will go right through a MAJOR Monarch migration sanctuary! Tearing up the land, destroying runoff pathways, disrupting territory of both predators and prey species of all kinds, ruining habitat of important plants..... The list could go on. But what do we care, if it keeps a few thousand illegals out? While we lose valuable natural resources. Way to misinterpret the meaning. AGAIN.

Humans are more important than animals.

I'd say, how about Mexico and other countries of the Central and Southern Americas fix their ****, instead of relying on Big Brother to do all the job for them or sending their people in another country for hand-me-outs?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Redeemer

The statistics I gate was for the country as a whole which is what I thought we were talking about.

The word you are looking is External Validity. The statistics I provided has good External Validity for the topic if we are talking about the entire country as a whole which I thought we were talking about.

But also your observational data is meaningless bc you would have to extrapolate it if you wanted to apply it to the national, state or even city level. It would be fined data for your local community, but you would also have to us Cohen's D to calculate effect size to determine correlation to determine correlation strength.

But the data I provided from previous post is from the department of statistics not some media outlet or extremist trying to skew data to push an agenda. The data I provided is better than anecdotal/opinion based evidence that others have suggested in this thread.

I think we are getting off topic though talking about statistics

Bottom line I due agree your area may be different/outliar. But my point still stand that blue collar or working poor is not mostly made up of illegal immigrants, no where near it from what I can see.

First, I've already stated that no, my "area" is not an outlier as you assume- this is literally the case for MOST of Texas! It is true of every town I've lived in, not just this one, and Cylons has confirmed it, as he resides here too. (As do a few others, who could probably attest to more of the same.) This state has a high concentration of immigrants from all over, but especially Latinos, and it's more noticable the closer to the border you get. But some cities, like Dallas, have high populations of them as well.

Second, no one has said "most" jobs in contruction, fast foid, etc are held by illegals, but there ARE far more of them than statistics show- for the simple reason that large numbers of them do not admit to it! At least not to "official" recorders. They don't want to out themselves, so of course they will say they are legal, or won't answer questions at all. So the numbers don't "lie" but they don't exactly show the true picture, either. Many will simply "disappear" the moment anyone "official" or who starts asking questions comes around. So you can expect to add at LEAST 5-10% to those numbers. No one is saying the numbers are "wrong" as "official" statistics- but those official numbers are lower than the ACTUAL numbers, especially further south.

Hope that clears up any confusion you may have as to what is being discussed there, but you can't just look at numbers and expect that to give you a real picture. You have to actually go out and LOOK for yourself. Which I see every day. The town I currently live in is much the same as the last three towns I have lived in, both large and small. It's easy to spout numbers and call it a day, but to actually be out where they frequent, and SEE how many immigrants are in an area is another matter. It shows how numbers fail at giving the true scope of things. Real life trumps simple numbers every time.

[Autbot_Benz]

Speaking of the Mythical Border Wall. Trump had a Trumper Tantrum and partially shut the government down because of not getting funds and tried blaming it on the Dems on Twitter. When he himself said he would be proud to shut the Gov down if he didn't get his funding.

[Redeemer]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

You do know illegal immigration fuels most of our blue collar jobs, right? You want any new buildings built, commercial or residential, you ain't getting university-degree blue-blood American citizens doing that. Or the food industry. Or harvesting crops.

Dirty little secret... nobody's ever gonna really put a stop to it.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

First, I've already stated that no, my "area" is not an outlier as you assume- this is literally the case for MOST of Texas! It is true of every town I've lived in, not just this one, and Cylons has confirmed it, as he resides here too. (As do a few others, who could probably attest to more of the same.) This state has a high concentration of immigrants from all over, but especially Latinos, and it's more noticable the closer to the border you get. But some cities, like Dallas, have high populations of them as well.

Second, no one has said "most" jobs in contruction, fast foid, etc are held by illegals, but there ARE far more of them than statistics show- for the simple reason that large numbers of them do not admit to it! At least not to "official" recorders. They don't want to out themselves, so of course they will say they are legal, or won't answer questions at all. So the numbers don't "lie" but they don't exactly show the true picture, either. Many will simply "disappear" the moment anyone "official" or who starts asking questions comes around. So you can expect to add at LEAST 5-10% to those numbers. No one is saying the numbers are "wrong" as "official" statistics- but those official numbers are lower than the ACTUAL numbers, especially further south.

Hope that clears up any confusion you may have as to what is being discussed there, but you can't just look at numbers and expect that to give you a real picture. You have to actually go out and LOOK for yourself. Which I see every day. The town I currently live in is much the same as the last three towns I have lived in, both large and small. It's easy to spout numbers and call it a day, but to actually be out where they frequent, and SEE how many immigrants are in an area is another matter. It shows how numbers fail at giving the true scope of things. Real life trumps simple numbers every time.

Well..... I was responding to Cylon who was talking about construction and food service which how this whole thing got started..... So I was on topic I am assuming you just missed Cylons post......

Cylon clearly states that Illegal immigrants are responsible for the blue collar work and specifically mentions Construction and fast food.

And in previous post I have reiterated what you are saying now. Even though I did not specifically look up stats to support your claim I DO AGREE THAT BORDER STATES PROBABLY HAVE A HIGHER POPULATION OF ILLEGALS WORKING IN THESE INDUSTRIES. I was simply stating that your areas and border states are outliers given that stats for the country as a whole.

As far as going out and looking for myself in my experience working in the fast food industry I never worked with an illegal before and I live in one of the largest cities in the nation. Top 10??? I think. I think my city actually has a lower than average illegal population than most of the big cities. FYI I worked at BK which is why I think we are butting heads lol

But I completely understand what is being talked about here.

[IndigoErth]

You know... If people on that side of the border want U.S. jobs, then maybe legitimately hire them to build Trump's precious wall, using the money from that GoFundMe to pay them, and then hire them to help protect that side of it. And as a merit-based incentive, for those who do well based on a required period of time in the job, offer to fast track their immigration documents when submitted.

Originally Posted by Autbot_Benz

Speaking of the Mythical Border Wall. Trump had a Trumper Tantrum and partially shut the government down because of not getting funds and tried blaming it on the Dems on Twitter. When he himself said he would be proud to shut the Gov down if he didn't get his funding.

Why must he be such a flip flopping asshat child. To have politics and choices that many don't side with is one thing, having a bad, jerky personality -- though terrible and not the representation we need -- is yet another... but this stupidness... "Will be proud to shut it down -- NO WAIT IT'S THEIR FAULT! BECAUSE I CHOOSE IT TO BE!" Ugh, just gtfo.

It's amazing how someone gets to the age he is with never developing any sense of personal responsibility; always the fault of someone else when things don't go well. Were they not dead his parents should be ashamed they failed so hard on those parts of him.

[Vegita-San]

the really sad part is, if this was something obama wanted, we'd be having a completely DIFFERENT reaction that was 100% supportive from the other crowd.


I get hating trump. he's an egotist. a falsity braggart... a rich snob. in other words, the perfect politicion on ANY side.

but trashing him like children 24/7 for the past 3 years not only doesn't get you anywhere, but also drives people over to his side.

hence, why so far $13 million has been raised for a border wall.
if you people had left him alone, I doubt it'd have gotten past 3,000.

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

Not all immigrants are illegal, no matter what jobs they perform.

I know that. I am talking about illegal immigrants, the people that have no right to be here. There is a massive difference. 😒

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Redeemer

Well..... I was responding to Cylon who was talking about construction and food service which how this whole thing got started..... So I was on topic I am assuming you just missed Cylons post......

Cylon clearly states that Illegal immigrants are responsible for the blue collar work and specifically mentions Construction and fast food.

And in previous post I have reiterated what you are saying now. Even though I did not specifically look up stats to support your claim I DO AGREE THAT BORDER STATES PROBABLY HAVE A HIGHER POPULATION OF ILLEGALS WORKING IN THESE INDUSTRIES. I was simply stating that your areas and border states are outliers given that stats for the country as a whole.

As far as going out and looking for myself in my experience working in the fast food industry I never worked with an illegal before and I live in one of the largest cities in the nation. Top 10??? I think. I think my city actually has a lower than average illegal population than most of the big cities. FYI I worked at BK which is why I think we are butting heads lol

But I completely understand what is being talked about here.

No, I didn't miss his post. Actually, I was specifically referring to Cylons' posts and how he never stated that illegals hold "most" of those jobs, though truth be told, minorities in general DO tend to take those types of jobs (ie, blue collar, low-pay jobs) far more often than other types of jobs, because employers can get away with paying them less while still claiming compliance with Affirmative Action. As opposed to higher paying jobs, which are far less likely to hire immigrants in general, and certainly far less likely to hire illegals.

The funny part of this is that I know for a fact that at least three of my coworkers are immigrants, as they still go back to Mexico to spend time with family there. Maybe not illegal (though I suspect two of them are), but certainly they are a good example of the point.

In any case, a "nationwide" statistic still isn't going to show an accurate picture, since it A) doesn't account for higher concentrations of ethnic populations by region, and B) it doesn't even accurately portray the actual numbers, due to underreporting. So while they are fine as a "base", they don't really give an accurate picture. Unlike actually counting heads that literally line up in front of you.....

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Actually, I was specifically referring to Cylons' posts and how he never stated that illegals hold "most" of those jobs,

Come on, really?

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

The funny part of this is that I know for a fact that at least three of my coworkers are immigrants, as they still go back to Mexico to spend time with family there. Maybe not illegal (though I suspect two of them are), but certainly they are a good example of the point.

In any case, a "nationwide" statistic still isn't going to show an accurate picture, since it A) doesn't account for higher concentrations of ethnic populations by region, and B) it doesn't even accurately portray the actual numbers, due to underreporting. So while they are fine as a "base", they don't really give an accurate picture. Unlike actually counting heads that literally line up in front of you.....

I find it odd that in all this belly-aching about illegals being hired, not once has there been a mention of regulating the businesses that do.

It has to be weird being caught between those two decisions. On one hand, we can't allow illegals in any way. On the other, we can't regulate business. The GOP runs on the whole free market thing.

To take it a step further, Trump's own staff are illegal immigrants. No one seems to care about that, either.

In the end, the conservatives don't have much solid ground to stand on. Every argument or demand they make often contradicts another. More money for workers but don't increase minimum wage. We need a wall, but we're ok with the POTUS hiring illegal immigrants. Abortion is evil, but we need to lock kids in cages.

I know how you feel. The incendiary comments are just that, and I always regret engaging. Instead, it might be better if we just start posting evidence of their constant lying and childish behavior.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by Voltron

In the end, the conservatives don't have much solid ground to stand on. Every argument or demand they make often contradicts another. More money for workers but don't increase minimum wage. We need a wall, but we're ok with the POTUS hiring illegal immigrants. Abortion is evil, but we need to lock kids in cages.

Aside form its being usual liberal attempt at engaging "muh emotions" what locked kids (which was happening since your precious liberal angel Obama) has to do with abortion?

And how Trump's cronies are illegal immigrants? I'd like to read about it.
And, no, "Google it" won't be taken as answer or argument.

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by Sumac

And how Trump's cronies are illegal immigrants? I'd like to read about it.
And, no, "Google it" won't be taken as answer or argument.

Not his White House staff, the housekeeping staff

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Come on, really?

https://i.imgur.com/nuQvbHf.png

He said immigration fuels those types of work, not that immigrants HOLD most of them. There is a difference. And his meaning was pretty clear as to the fact that immigrants take mostly jobs that others do not want. Which is true. It is a sad fact that low-paying jobs, no matter how important they are to infrastructure or services, are generally looked down on by the average white, middle-class citizen.

[Redeemer]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Come on, really?

https://i.imgur.com/nuQvbHf.png

Thank you I am glad someone else saw this.. I know I am not crazy or delusional now lol.... well maybe a little.... haha

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

He said immigration fuels those types of work, not that immigrants HOLD most of them. There is a difference. And his meaning was pretty clear as to the fact that immigrants take mostly jobs that others do not want. Which is true. It is a sad fact that low-paying jobs, no matter how important they are to infrastructure or services, are generally looked down on by the average white, middle-class citizen.

Really????

Cylon specifically said "Harvesting crops" indicating a job or action. How he not talking about jobs?? How else is "Fuel the industry" suppose to be interpreted??? Like seriously????

Please show a post were he said specially that immigrants take jobs people do not want bc it is not in that original post I was responding too. And I promise you people would love a good paying blue collar construction job. Fast food....maybe not... unless in high school or college.
And I have said this multiple times now I am sure border states have higher numbers, But I used the national average stats as a whole, bc I assume we were talking about the country as a whole.

Originally Posted by Voltron

I find it odd that in all this belly-aching about illegals being hired, not once has there been a mention of regulating the businesses that do.

It has to be weird being caught between those two decisions. On one hand, we can't allow illegals in any way. On the other, we can't regulate business. The GOP runs on the whole free market thing.

To take it a step further, Trump's own staff are illegal immigrants. No one seems to care about that, either.

In the end, the conservatives don't have much solid ground to stand on. Every argument or demand they make often contradicts another. More money for workers but don't increase minimum wage. We need a wall, but we're ok with the POTUS hiring illegal immigrants. Abortion is evil, but we need to lock kids in cages.

I know how you feel. The incendiary comments are just that, and I always regret engaging. Instead, it might be better if we just start posting evidence of their constant lying and childish behavior.

I think we are just arguing over word semantics at this point..... I apologize, MrsMarvelDuckie have pretty much derailed this thread

But as far as businesses being responsible as well is a good point. It would go along way if business would not hire illegals. I believe there are punishments for businesses who practice this, but I imagine that it is not regulated or the penalty is very minor and not a serious deterrent.

The GOP hasn't had a leg to stand on since they got trump in office.

Edit: It is almost at 16 million now... Can we put this money into our crumpling roads and other utilites instead???

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

He said immigration fuels those types of work, not that immigrants HOLD most of them. There is a difference.

Firstly, he said illegal immigration, not just immigration which gives off a completely different picture.

Secondly, what is the exact difference? Please elaborate.

To me, saying that "illegal immigration fuels most of our blue collar jobs" paints a pretty clear picture of them having a significant hold over most of those industries, and not just a 1% contribution.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Firstly, he said illegal immigration, not just immigration which gives off a completely different picture.

Secondly, what is the exact difference? Please elaborate.

To me, saying that "illegal immigration fuels most of our blue collar jobs" paints a pretty clear picture of them having a significant hold over most of those industries, and not just a 1% contribution.

Don't expect a honest answer.

This type of people, when cornered, rely either on appealing to emotions or on the combination of muddy semantics and solipsism, to cover the fact that they don't have arguments.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Which is true. It is a sad fact that low-paying jobs, no matter how important they are to infrastructure or services, are generally looked down on by the average white, middle-class citizen.

If they're born into privilege or already accustomed to a certain "standard" of living, perhaps.

As I've already mentioned, go into any true "blue collar" area in America and you'll find absolutely no shortage of white people who'd be more than happy to do those jobs that they supposedly think they're "too good for". They simply don't want to be told they're not worth a living wage "because I could pull any random Juan Pablo off the street and do your job."

Any white person who says they're "too good" to mop floors or do construction has never missed a meal in their life. Hunger creates humility; there's a LOT of hungry blue-collar workers out there. And frankly, they find it insulting whenever anyone says that the work they ALREADY do is "work nobody but illegal immigrants wants to do". So we probably shouldn't talk like that, on account of it's both degrading, and it's NOT true.

It's NOT that "only illegal immigrants want to do those jobs." Total lie. "Only illegal immigrants are willing to do those jobs for $5-8 an hour." THAT is the truth. Those people are NOT doing us any sort of favor by being "humble" enough to scrub toilets for inadequate pay. If they weren't here, someone else would be doing it. It's ludicrous to suggest otherwise, and it's bananas to flat-out say so. It pushes a false narrative that white people are lazy and entitled, and afraid of any work that's "hard" or "dirty".

The fact that at least two people I've worked for have been millionaires, and STILL scrub toilets and mop floors as part of their work routine - despite owning the place - kind of leads me to believe that people will do any kind of work that needs doing regardless of whether it's supposed to be "beneath" them. Again, I know from experience that people born into a certain status may feel entitled, but that's NOT the case for most working-class Americans.

[The Deadman]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

the really sad part is, if this was something obama wanted, we'd be having a completely DIFFERENT reaction that was 100% supportive from the other crowd.


I get hating trump. he's an egotist. a falsity braggart... a rich snob. in other words, the perfect politicion on ANY side.

but trashing him like children 24/7 for the past 3 years not only doesn't get you anywhere, but also drives people over to his side.

hence, why so far $13 million has been raised for a border wall.
if you people had left him alone, I doubt it'd have gotten past 3,000.

If Obama announced he wanted a wall built, the Democrats would of had the funding for it yesterday.

[Vegita-San]

and the republicans would have blocked it.

wonderful system in place, huh? like looking into a mirror.