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Old 06-15-2018, 12:40 PM   #61
Krutch
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Meh! He puts a world-class scholarly level of thought, research and symmetry into every single thing he writes. If something is going over your head or seems boring/stale, it's probably because he's digging up something obscure from the 50s-80s and weaving it into the narrative that you either don't know about or have no interest in. He studies all of the great writers and is always honing his craft.
This is the most common defence I hear when I bring up Morrison. To which I say, being referential doesn't make you a great storyteller, it just shows you've done your homework. As I've said before in another thread, I find it baffling how so many writers get eye rolls and groans when they try the same thing but when Godly Grant does it it's considered groundbreaking

I had an interest to check out The Invisibles but after reading a decent amount of his work, I just... nah. Hard pass.

Just a difference of opinion I guess.
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Old 06-15-2018, 01:16 PM   #62
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This is the most common defence I hear when I bring up Morrison. To which I say, being referential doesn't make you a great storyteller, it just shows you've done your homework. As I've said before in another thread, I find it baffling how so many writers get eye rolls and groans when they try the same thing but when Godly Grant does it it's considered groundbreaking
The reference bits aren't indicative of his quality of storytelling, it's indicative of his (often) style of storytelling.

I mean, if you can find one, look at one of Grant Morrison's scripts. They are so dense, packed with notes on everything from emotion to references to angles, to everything. He pours a ton of thought into every nuance, and understands well the three act structure.

A Geoff Johns script is... "Hal throws a punch," and "OK, A-list artist, make me look good!"

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Just a difference of opinion I guess.
I think it's more a difference in taste. There is nothing wrong with a good cheeseburger, after all. Some people will choose the salad. Others, the steak.
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Old 06-15-2018, 01:23 PM   #63
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True. Like I said, I'm genuinely envious of people who like his work because they really seem to love it with great passion. I've never said he isn't talented or that he's a hack. It's just not for me

I'll stick to Moore, Gaimon, Busiek, Whedon... and yeah, at times, Johns

But truthfully I'm so out of the loop of modern comics right now. Just thought I'd chime in with my dated two cents

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Sidenote: I'm launching a Kickstarter for a comic somewhere in the next 2 or 3 months. Andrew, if I have any questions, mind if I send you a PM about it? I know you've had experience with it.
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Old 06-15-2018, 01:39 PM   #64
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It also maaaay be the artist side of things. You'll never see Geoff Johns not hiding behind an A-list artist with the best colorists -- no matter what, a Geoff Johns comic will always look really, really good. Which he ensures.

Grant Morrison doesn't hide behind A-list artists. I mean, he's worked with some great ones but mostly he partners up with artists as eclectic as he is who can best execute his scripts/notes.

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Sidenote: I'm launching a Kickstarter for a comic somewhere in the next 2 or 3 months. Andrew, if I have any questions, mind if I send you a PM about it? I know you've had experience with it.
Sure.
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Old 06-15-2018, 09:11 PM   #65
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I think Morrison's exceptionally creative and talented, but he's had his head up his own ass for a very long time. He's obviously very pleased with himself, to hear him talk about his work and his "process." Lots of comic book readers think Grant Morrison is a certified genius, but Grant Morrison is 100% certain of it.

I "Like" to "Love" most of his stuff I've read. Like Johns, he's a master of reintroducing characters and/or concepts that have become forgotten or dismissed for being "out of fashion" or otherwise undesirable, and making them work so well that you wonder why nobody else ever did ____ so well before he did. That's a skill and a talent. Consider, the ONE time that Electric Blue Superman wasn't a complete and total sh*tshow, it was in an issue of Grant's JLA. He was the only one who even bothered trying to make that concept work; it didn't, but his take was far less insipid than anyone else's! He's good at stuff like that. Or taking a tiny background character from a Batman comic from 50 years ago, and turning him into a major important character in the present. You can read a Grant Morrison comic a hundred times and see something new every time, some detail or joke or hidden reference. And if there's something so over-the-top or abstract or outlandish that someone insists "simply can't work", he'll somehow make it work. He works hard, and he really is a sharp dude, and his work is very clever.

He's not anywhere near as clever as HE thinks he is, though. Often during one of his books, I'll reach a scene where I can just picture him giggling while writing it down, utterly self-satisfied with being just such a cheeky bastard. And that gets a little bit grating. And like Johns, often his retcons will skirt pretty close to flat-out burying other people's ideas, which also comes off as smug. He breaks the Fourth Wall too often and relies on deus ex machina's and anti-climaxes as a resolution to a frustrating degree. I mean, having characters in-story constantly say things like, "Batman is going to win because he's Batman, it's his only function", or, "Superman is going to save the day because it's the entire reason he exists" is a little bit cute but also heavily eye-roll-inducing. Having Final Crisis end by, literally, "Superman wishes on the Miracle Machine for a Happy Ending", and then ALL the Good Guy characters magically show up at once and just sort'a magically "wish away" the Bad Guy? We were just talking about Geoff Johns writing stories like a little kid playing with toys... well, Final Crisis ended the exact same way my living room action figure "wars" did when I was 6. And I really, REALLY like Final Crisis, I'm just saying that it's kind of broken.

He also leans WAY too heavily on the Silver Age stuff. Like, I totally understand and even enjoy when he puts those kind of things in there, as long as they don't become too intrusive or distracting; but did Bat-Mite REALLY need to be in "Batman: R.I.P"? I thought the story was fine otherwise, but that seemed a little (or a LOT) self-indulgent. And since I'm a Superman fan, everyone insists that I must love All-Star Superman, and people are forever gushing about how it's "The Greatest Superman Comic Ever made." You know who says that? People who NEVER read a Superman comic, then read that one, and said "Oh, okay, this is fine." I personally think that book is "Okay" but f*cking masturbatory as hell. I do NOT Like Silver Age Superman (generally speaking; things were already getting kind of cleaned-up for the better around 1980 or so); I think the entire Crisis happened solely to provide a chance to re-create Superman "properly" for the first time, which Byrne and Ordway managed to do. But then This Guy comes in all like, "Well, I grew up in the crazy 60s and 70s and I loved it when Superman could see to the other end of the universe and farted fairy dust! I drop acid and so I think stuff like Jimmy Olsen: Turtle Boy is f*cking brilliant! I don't like seeing Superman portrayed as a three-dimensional human being with human thoughts, feelings, and emotions, because that's too 'sad'; I liked it better when he was Santa Claus in a Cape, and he had EVERY super-power plus infinity and was smarter than a thousand Albert Einsteins! THAT's the way my Superman comic is gonna be!" And it's like everything after 1986 was meaningless, instead of The Only Time Superman Has Ever Been Any Good. It's like anything he grew up with is Good, and anything anyone did to "change" the character(s) afterwards is Bad; Geoff's been guilty of it, too.

Both Grant and Geoff basically want the entire DCU to look like the Super-Friends poster they had on their walls as kids, and are using their own work as a way of passive-aggressively getting back at all the writers from the 1980s and 1990s who "ruined their childhoods". Their styles are totally different but they honestly do pretty much the same things every time they get on a book: just jigger things around until it looks almost exactly the way it did when they were 10, or in some cases, the way they wished it did when they were 10. It's "fine", but when they do it as often as they do it gets noticeable and a little irritating.

I agree that Grant's dialog can be very stiff; his characters don't speak the way real people speak, but I think he's trying really hard to ape Jack Kirby with that. Like the way people will seem to shout increasingly-bizarre things at the top of their lungs for no reason, often while aggressively pointing, or shaking a fist in the air, when that sort of bombast seemingly is not situationally necessary. That's a thing Kirby used to do constantly and since he's Grant's hero I have to think it's an homage, rather than just being bad at writing dialog. Doesn't make it read any smoother, though! Clunky. Grant's dialog is clunky.

And I tell ya, I SWEAR sometimes the man is just being weird for the sake of being weird; just to see how far people will "allow" him to push things. And since he's Grant, nobody will actually tell him No, and so even his most ridiculous ideas still see print, because he doesn't have the audacity to admit that he was trolling people. It's gotta at least partly be that; the alternative is that he's 100% sincere, and that's... deeply troubling.

To be clear, though, I do like Grant Morrison. But I'm not one of his fanatics. I LOVE Batman: R.I.P. and Final Crisis - MOSTLY - but in both cases I had to read them beginning-to-end several times to fully "get" it. Not to enjoy them more deeply, not to look for more Easter Eggs... no, I had to re-read them front-to-back several times just so they'd make SENSE. And they made sense for ME, but I know many people who couldn't make sense of one, the other, either, or both after trying like hell, and at some point, I have to say that reading comics shouldn't require so much "homework". Final Crisis, especially; I have an informal "DC PhD", so to speak, so there's not much I don't know about, but the average person reading Final Crisis wouldn't have a chance in hell of following it. It's the most NON-New Reader Friendly thing I've ever seen. It's not that Final Crisis doesn't make sense; it DOES make sense, and once it does, it's actually pretty brilliant, but it takes serious WORK on the reader's part and that right there is why it didn't sell and killed the line off, "requiring" the New 52 reboot.

To this day, I can't help but wonder where we'd be if Geoff Johns had written Final Crisis, and Morrison only consulted on it. For better or worse, Johns is the writer with the more "populist" style; his FC may not have been "better", but at the very least every single person who read it would know exactly what was going on. When the book's biggest criticism is, "It's impossible to understand", and its failure tanked the entire line... well, I don't have a time machine, but I simply can't help but ponder, "What if...?"

But yeah... Grant and Geoff, Geoff and Grant. Two guys whose work I greatly enjoy but won't hesitate to pick apart. They've each written some of the absolutely most brilliant AND most "WTF?!" stories I've ever read. Neither one is my all-time favorite, but if their name is on a book, I'm probably going to at least read it. Some people vilify them, others put them on a golden pedestal. All said... I'm glad they're around.

They both could use a good smack once in a while, though.
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:01 PM   #66
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Final Crisis is an interesting thing. On the one hand, it's a bit of a litmus test for comic book readers... on the other, it's sort of pointless. Grant Morrison was asked to write a big, loud, dumb "Infinite Crisis" kind of spectacle. He's not the guy you pick to do that... because he's not going to want to.

Fun fact: Didio meant for Morrison's Final Crisis to be a Flashpoint-style full reboot. It wasn't until fairly far into Morrison's writing that Didio was convinced out of it and Morrison had to revise everything.
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:17 PM   #67
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I don't care much for DiDio. He seems to have no vision whatsoever besides money and is entirely reactionary. The Mike Carlin Era was DC's true Modern Golden Age, in my opinion. Things were so tight when him and Dooley and Denny were running the show. Not so much after.

Y'know, at first, I thought Grant would have been perfect for a story like Final Crisis, on account of his... "interesting" way of thinking, but when I read it, I can't deny that it's nothing at all like what I expected him to produce.

Dan Jurgens would'a done fine. He's generally pretty good at those. Zero Hour turned out good, and Armageddon 2001 wasn't his fault.
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Old 06-16-2018, 01:09 PM   #68
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It also maaaay be the artist side of things. You'll never see Geoff Johns not hiding behind an A-list artist with the best colorists -- no matter what, a Geoff Johns comic will always look really, really good. Which he ensures.

Grant Morrison doesn't hide behind A-list artists. I mean, he's worked with some great ones but mostly he partners up with artists as eclectic as he is who can best execute his scripts/notes.
I feel I've asked this comparison question before, but... You're in film - wouldn't you want your work to look it's best? I don't hear anyone complaining that A-List directors only work with the top DPs and art teams and A-list actors. I don't really understand how you can knock someone for it wanting their work to look it's best. Unless it's coming from a place of "Give some lesser-knowns a chance!" kind of mentality. In which case you're still left with a product that won't look as "pleasing" to the casual market, and now you've alienated a large portion of people who would have otherwised took a chance on your work.

Plus, you run the risk of looking like you're just giving your friends a big pay check for putting them at a top level title when their skills aren't quite up to snuff. I remember when Kevin Smith did Batman: Cacophony and everyone complained the art was crap and Walt Flannigan is only working on a Batman title because his buddy Kevin pushed for him.

I guess I'm just confused where you're perspective is coming from, because knocking a creative artist for wanting their stuff to look it's best seems... strange. Especially considering your background as a filmmaker.

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Lots of comic book readers think Grant Morrison is a certified genius, but Grant Morrison is 100% certain of it.
Yup. What was that quote he made about Moore? Something like "Moore thinks he's great because he put out Watchmen. I put out a Watchmen every week."

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And since I'm a Superman fan, everyone insists that I must love All-Star Superman, and people are forever gushing about how it's "The Greatest Superman Comic Ever made." You know who says that? People who NEVER read a Superman comic, then read that one, and said "Oh, okay, this is fine." I personally think that book is "Okay" but f*cking masturbatory as hell.
I'm happy to hear we're on the same page with All Star Superman. It's by no means bad - there's parts that are quite brilliant. The Goth Girl one-page is perfect enough to be framed. Ditto with the one-page origin. But Superman himself just always felt so... distant and alien.

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And I tell ya, I SWEAR sometimes the man is just being weird for the sake of being weird; just to see how far people will "allow" him to push things.
Ever read The Filth?

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I have to say that reading comics shouldn't require so much "homework".
100 percent this.
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Old 06-18-2018, 02:13 AM   #69
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I don't care much for DiDio. He seems to have no vision whatsoever besides money and is entirely reactionary. The Mike Carlin Era was DC's true Modern Golden Age, in my opinion. Things were so tight when him and Dooley and Denny were running the show. Not so much after.
Didio is the worst. The Carlin/Dooley/Denny days may have given way to 90s... provocativism at times... but it was always a tight ship. You knew what was going on. There was plenty of intimate "one and done" issues, and character stuff was encouraged. Now everything is lawless. It's like Star Wars. "Regional governors given supreme authority," no overriding authority with any sort of vision, or any such thing even caring to do so. And everything on any comic is 5 issue arcs with "mini-events" bleeding into the next.

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Y'know, at first, I thought Grant would have been perfect for a story like Final Crisis, on account of his... "interesting" way of thinking, but when I read it, I can't deny that it's nothing at all like what I expected him to produce.
I wasn't surprised at all, but then remember that whatever original vision he had and was mid-way into was cannibalized when Didio came back and said, "WAIT, Grant! Stop the presses! It isn't a reboot anymore! Just kinda... have it be a medium victory against Darkseid!"

Grant is a guy you pick when you want a lot of players (he knows how to utilize everyone) and some kind of mass-scale smart... eh, Ocean's 11-style event. Not "Crisis on Infinite Earths Part 2," with tons of fights and energy beams and death and stuff. It's just not in him. Even the biggest, best loved arcs in JLA weren't that.

"Seven Soldiers" is one of his best works that I love beyond the JLA stuff.

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Dan Jurgens would'a done fine. He's generally pretty good at those. Zero Hour turned out good, and Armageddon 2001 wasn't his fault.
Jurgens is a great guy. I can't fault him. His stuff is never super deep or multi-layered, but what he does he does well. I was sad when they cancelled the last volume of "Booster Gold" just because of Flashpoint. If anything, it should have continued, with Booster as an oddity, the only survivor of the pre-reboot stuff. Sales were fine. Guess Didio and Geoff didn't want that.

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I feel I've asked this comparison question before, but... You're in film - wouldn't you want your work to look it's best? I don't hear anyone complaining that A-List directors only work with the top DPs and art teams and A-list actors. I don't really understand how you can knock someone for it wanting their work to look it's best. Unless it's coming from a place of "Give some lesser-knowns a chance!" kind of mentality. In which case you're still left with a product that won't look as "pleasing" to the casual market, and now you've alienated a large portion of people who would have otherwised took a chance on your work.

Plus, you run the risk of looking like you're just giving your friends a big pay check for putting them at a top level title when their skills aren't quite up to snuff. I remember when Kevin Smith did Batman: Cacophony and everyone complained the art was crap and Walt Flannigan is only working on a Batman title because his buddy Kevin pushed for him.

I guess I'm just confused where you're perspective is coming from, because knocking a creative artist for wanting their stuff to look it's best seems... strange. Especially considering your background as a filmmaker.
Well, you're not wrong. My point is only, a guy like Grant isn't interested in hiring whose art looks the most like cutting edge, eye-pleasing height-of-Image stuff. He could. He could bully and get that. He doesn't. He wants artists he can work with best that can best execute his vision. Geoff? He doesn't. He knows his scripts are flimsy so he insists on only A-list artists to make his stuff float. It's a matter of craft. Morrison isn't going to slum it with an amateur artist, but he's going to take someone who can pull off (as one example) a good Kirby-esque take over someone that might help him sell 2,000 extra copies just because that's the way the public is right now.

I'd love to read "Green Lantern: Rebirth" with a C-list artist. Or like, reputable artists but ones that aren't "hip." Klaus Janson or something. Let's see how that "Big return of Hal Jordan!" would have been heralded.

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Yup. What was that quote he made about Moore? Something like "Moore thinks he's great because he put out Watchmen. I put out a Watchmen every week."
Well... he's not really wrong. The difference is probably that Morrison used to do a lot of hardcore drugs and Moore... never really stopped that. But man, I love me some old school Moore stuff. Moore right now, though, is part of the Frank Miller club: angry, bitter, codger country.
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Old 06-22-2018, 11:52 AM   #70
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I bought the first volume of GL Kyle Rayner, back in 1994. This is my review with spoilers:

It contains GREEN LANTERN #48-57, GREEN LANTERN #0 (Zero Hour), NEW TITANS #116-117 and R.E.B.E.L.S. #1.

I wanted to get book for a while. #48-50 is the Emerald Twilight storyline, whrere Hal Jordan turns on the Guardian and the Corps. In 2018, it's weird to see a storyline that big to be settled in 3 issues.

For me, it's now easier to see the retcon done by Geoff Johns about Parallax taking over Hal Jordan. In that story, there is no clue that something is controlling Hal. He just lost it after the Guardians stopped him to recreate Coast City.

All the issues were good, and some were great: the team-up with Superman, the meeting with Allan Scott and the confrontation with Hal Jordan.

I think I saw more different constructs whit Kyle in 10 issues than with Hal during all of Geoff John's run.

I started to read comic book about six years ago, and I read a lot of big "blockbusters" comic events like Marvel's Civil War, Secret Invasion, AvX or GL storylines likes Sinestro Corps War or Blackest Night, so I'm aware I have to adapt my expectations when I read something older like this. It's fun to watch a story where the universe is not going to explode every two issues.

In New 52 "New Guardians", It was showed that Kyle and Ganthet had a father/son relationship. I hope I'll see more of that is further issues. Their first meeting lasted about 15 seconds.

Vol 2 is already available, and Volume 3 will be available in January 2019.
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Old 07-09-2018, 01:26 PM   #71
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https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/07...ego-comic-con/

It looks like we will find out about Grant Morrison's Hal Jordan Green Lantern title at SDCC. The title could rest one monrh and launch in October.
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Old 07-19-2018, 09:11 AM   #72
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Grant Morrison's run has been officially announced today

http://www.ign.com/articles/2018/07/...as-a-space-cop
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Old 07-19-2018, 10:55 AM   #73
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Grant Morrison's run has been officially announced today

http://www.ign.com/articles/2018/07/...as-a-space-cop
Damn, Morrison is just writing Hal Jordan... it'll still be aces, though.
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Old 07-19-2018, 04:16 PM   #74
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What is the expected release date, October?
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Old 07-19-2018, 05:33 PM   #75
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What is the expected release date, October?
Probably as good of a guess as any.
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Old 07-20-2018, 06:48 AM   #76
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I got my answer. November according to this article.
https://io9.gizmodo.com/hal-jordan-r...1827721600/amp
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Old 07-22-2018, 04:17 PM   #77
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Probably as good of a guess as any.
I thought about you when I read this about the future Green Lantern Corp movie:

http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/07/22/g...e-reimagining/

It was demonstrated here that Geoff Johns did a "blockbuster" work on GL (one big even after the other) , so I guess this is good to reach casual superhero fans who don't necessarily know much about GL.

I know he worked on the 2011 movie but I hope this time the result will be more satisfying.
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Old 07-26-2018, 06:55 PM   #78
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbr...oast-city/amp/

Not keeping up with a non-Hal Jordan title, but I saw this on my feed. Hal Jordan faces Cyborg Superman once again. This time on the 25th publication anniversary of Coast City's destruction. Battle sight of course is the rebuilt city. This is interesting and I hope it is a ghost that can be put to rest.

Speaking of beating ghost, it seems like the Xanshi accident is being used as a crutch for the Ultraviolet Corps plot. John beat that ghost and was forgiven during Blackest Night.
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Old 08-09-2018, 03:11 PM   #79
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What are we supposed to take away from Tomar Tu realizing he was going the wrong way about honoring his father so he commits suicide? It was needless and sends a bad message!

General Zod blames Tomar Re for Krypton's end? I do not see the connection there. You cannot stop every single problem in a sector.

Let's see Hal and Carol's relationship actually develop! Knowing DC though...
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Old 08-14-2018, 10:53 AM   #80
MikeandRaph87
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Looks like Kyle Raynercould meet his maker on September 26th in Heroes In Crisis#1. I call this Identity Crisis 2.0. Also, it looks like another Morrison leaguer could die in Wally West. I dont care if Kyle lives or temporarily dies, but Wally was unfairly sidelined when Barry returned after 22 years and unlike Kyle was never given a role to fill to share some of the spotlight like Kyle was still able to.
http://comicbook.com/dc/amp/2018/08/...ill-die-soon-/
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