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Old 03-21-2013, 08:59 PM   #41
FearlessLeader
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I am curious from all the people that are not fans of Laird, how many of you have actually met him in person?

I have a few times and he has never been anything but very kind to me. He is certainly not perfect, but who is??

And the simple fact with the way this fandom has at times treated him and the other guys at Mirage I don't blame him if he a little bitter.
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:34 PM   #42
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It is kinda funny when you think about it... Peter did things more to the true Mirage way... while Kevin was open to whatever worked and whatever the fans wanted. Given the big fuss over the new Nickshow and IDW comics that has some sort of input from Kevin, it does kinda seem the Mirage way sucks and the 80's toon way will always be the better version. Most of the complaints Peter got from the 2K3 show was because he stuck with the original Mirage stories and 'never gave fans what they wanted' and refused to put anything OT related into the show.
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Old 03-21-2013, 10:17 PM   #43
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Laird has a special vision of what the turtles are.
Eastman sees the turtles as something anyone can do what they want with it and see theme expand.

Both have their pros and cons, different people, different ideas and I think that's why they worked well together.

Eastman interviews remind me of Steve Wozniak, I've never heard them say anything bad.
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:08 PM   #44
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Eastman seems to view the Ninja Turtles kind of like Batman - there can be a dozen different interpretations, and one does not invalidate the next. Laird, on the other hand, seems married to the Mirage version (or "his" version).

I don't think either guy is "wrong" necessarily. On the one hand, I'd like to think I'd maintain my creative integrity if I were offered a TV and toy deal. On the other hand, creative integrity ain't payin' the mortgage...
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:47 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by FearlessLeader View Post
I am curious from all the people that are not fans of Laird, how many of you have actually met him in person?

I have a few times and he has never been anything but very kind to me. He is certainly not perfect, but who is??
Granted, many haven't, myself included. However, I'm guessing those who do probably choose their words with care, because they know of his berserk buttons. I also doubt he goes to conventions advertising himself as "the guy behind Ninja Turtles," because of the risk of Fred Wolf fans screaming "Cowabunga" and the like at him.

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And the simple fact with the way this fandom has at times treated him and the other guys at Mirage I don't blame him if he a little bitter.
That's a valid point to some degree, but the mistreatment runs both ways; Peter Laird mistreated the old fandom, and when all was said and done, Laird feels it bit like a hypocrite to me. If you're going to ignore the Fred Wolf series in your new cartoon just because you'd rather follow the Mirage series, that's fine, but after a while it was obvious that motivation ceased to underline the 2003 show, and then Peter doomed the Mirage series by selling the license, which makes me think that he was ultimately more motivated by hatred of other people's take on his series than love of his own. That is not the right attitude for creative artists to take.
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:54 PM   #46
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Someone Mentioned Eastman like the Venus De Milo character. Wonder what his reaction to Mona Lisa was.
i had to check pl's blog cause i recall something about monalisa

""My questions are in regards to the creation (or adapting) of characters on the old Fred Wolf cartoon and toy line. Even though I know you weren't a fan of that show, I really do appreciate some historical insights from your point of view.

1. Was the female mutant lizard, Mona Lisa, originally going to be a 5th mutant turtle who might have become a recurring character on the show? If so, did you or any of the Mirage folks veto that idea and force the cartoon and toy folks to alter her design? "

Yes, Mona Lisa was originally planned to be a fifth Turtle, and it was one of the few times, sadly, that Kevin and I were in total accord and managed to put our foot (feet?) down and get her changed into some other type of creature."

and now that i've found it i see the old man asked it
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:41 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by grungethemovie View Post
i had to check pl's blog cause i recall something about monalisa

""My questions are in regards to the creation (or adapting) of characters on the old Fred Wolf cartoon and toy line. Even though I know you weren't a fan of that show, I really do appreciate some historical insights from your point of view.

1. Was the female mutant lizard, Mona Lisa, originally going to be a 5th mutant turtle who might have become a recurring character on the show? If so, did you or any of the Mirage folks veto that idea and force the cartoon and toy folks to alter her design? "

Yes, Mona Lisa was originally planned to be a fifth Turtle, and it was one of the few times, sadly, that Kevin and I were in total accord and managed to put our foot (feet?) down and get her changed into some other type of creature."

and now that i've found it i see the old man asked it
Dude, I remember asking that question! I asked because there had been some Drome discussion about Mona Lisa on some of Laird's past comments on her design in the Volume 4 comic editorial comments.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:07 AM   #48
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I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstood on my criticism of post-Eastman&Laird Kevin and Peter (yeah, you read that right; not a typo!).

In my opinion, the TMNT franchise was (creatively) stifled under Peter because he wasn't open-minded enough. He would routinely draw a hard line against incorporating any proposed idea that reminded him of his memories of the Fred Wolf cartoon. He appreciated the fans, but he had very little patience for criticism. When fans criticized the current state of the Volume 4 comics, the PBBZ reprint, or some other TMNT project he oversaw (sometimes rudely and ignorantly so) he would often respond in a frank and untactful manner.

Kevin Eastman, on the other hand, has always been a remarkably open-minded artist, probably to the detriment of his actual work. He shook up the TMNT status-quo with the introduction of Venus in the Next Mutation. He participated in the infamous Bodycount arc simply for the sake of working with Bode and creating "the longest gunfight in comics history." Although I don't have any sources, I think he embraced the weird guest artist/writer schedule on the Mirage Volume 1 comics more than did Peter. In recent years, he has been associated with the new film project and the IDW comics. I suspect he's taken an "(almost) Anything Goes" attitude with how the TMNT are portrayed in contemporary media. It's the exact opposite attitude that Peter took with the 2k3 show and the 2007 Imagi film.

If I had to pick either guy to meet and/or hang out with, it would definitely be Kevin. The guy just seems so fun and engaging, and I think he appreciates most aspects of TMNT history and doesn't mind appeasing fans who really love that aspects.

But I am nevertheless appreciative of Peter's stewardship over the franchise during what could have been a "dead era." He is the more careful thinker and storyteller (even if not fans found those stories especially interesting). He wasn't afraid to stand his ground against outside pressure to "improve" the brand or "do things differently." It may not have been the best (or the most fun) way to handle the TMNT property, but it did keep it alive and set it up for potential future success.

And... I was gonna make some profound statement to wrap things up, but I think I'm already getting bored with this post.
I totally agree. together, pete and kevin were/always will be, a truly dynamic duo. kevin is full of zeal, adventure, excitement, and open mindedness. peter on the other hand, is more of the time keeper, architect, and steady hand. pete was able to channel kevin's energy to keep everything well balanced whereas kevin was able to open pete up a little more and probably be a little more free spirited and more willing to accept something.

their art shared the same balance. peter had the finesse and kevin had the grit. it was a beautiful combo that made the turtles what they were. pete's drawing was so clean and beautiful. Kevin's inks were so powerful and held a lot of energy and emotion. i have no favorite between the two of them. to me they are as one.

I appreciate everything that each of them has done individually for the franchise, but it was never quite as good as it was when they worked together.
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:40 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Konchadunga View Post
Granted, many haven't, myself included. However, I'm guessing those who do probably choose their words with care, because they know of his berserk buttons. I also doubt he goes to conventions advertising himself as "the guy behind Ninja Turtles," because of the risk of Fred Wolf fans screaming "Cowabunga" and the like at him.
Just so you know in real life outside of the internet I have never seen Peter have a "berserk button" actually I have never seen him online either but I digress. People act differently on the internet then they do face to face, I can't speak for everyone but I can tell you my own personal experiences with Peter.

I never choose my words carefully, in fact it was only a time or two I actually walked up to Peter to talk to him. I would usually hang around the Mirage table to talk to the rest the of the guys because Peter's always had an extremely long line of people. He would almost always take the time though of his own accord to come down by me to say "hello". I have no idea if he remembered me from con to con, but since he did this I am going to hazard that he at least recognized me as someone who was generally at their table and always had a Leonardo plush with her.

I would talk about all manner of things with Peter. I recall one time we even talked about Naruto of all things and he was always nothing but very polite and kind to me. I would hazard to say that if everyone on this Earth was judged for every comment they ever said online that no one with an internet connection would ever have any friends.

Also as I stated above Peter was at the Mirage Table so yes he was promoting his involvement with Turtles, and back in the early 2000's he loved talking about the franchise with people. He wanted to know people's stories he wanted to know how his characters had effected people's lives. Heck if I remembered correctly from the volume 4 comics that was how he got back into Turtles and decided to write the new comics was an event where someone told him how Turtles had changed their lives.

I don't mean to insult you, but frankly from your statements above you sound very uninformed about the reality of what the actual situation was. I feel you don't like Peter because of things he has said on the internet and that's fine. I have many actors I myself have deleted off of Twitter because I couldn't stand the things they said. I just want you to know that Peter is not quiet the heartless fiend you make him out to be. You have made up your mind so you may not believe me and that is also perfectly fine, it is your opinion after all. I just want you to have all the relevant and true facts before you make statements.


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That's a valid point to some degree, but the mistreatment runs both ways; Peter Laird mistreated the old fandom, and when all was said and done, Laird feels it bit like a hypocrite to me. If you're going to ignore the Fred Wolf series in your new cartoon just because you'd rather follow the Mirage series, that's fine, but after a while it was obvious that motivation ceased to underline the 2003 show, and then Peter doomed the Mirage series by selling the license, which makes me think that he was ultimately more motivated by hatred of other people's take on his series than love of his own. That is not the right attitude for creative artists to take.
Or you know at the end of the run of 2k3 he could have just been burned out on the franchise and all the work and all the negative feelings from so many people (like he said just not in that many words he said he was just burned out) and he could have been trying to distance himself.

Maybe the reason Peter sold Turtles in the first place was he took a long look at the fact he needed a break and he didn't want the characters and their story to suffer because he couldn't carry the burden of supporting it anymore. I mean let's face it Peter is not a young guy, I can recall blog posts before the sale where Peter talked about going on bike rides around house and getting lost and worrying himself and I got the general impression from what he was saying Peter was not in the best health mentally or physically at that point.

Turtles was a big thing for Peter and a lot of it was his fault, because he is such a perfectionist and he did insist on making certain everything he put his stamp on was perfect in his eyes and I think that just added too much to his plate. You see through both the comics and the 2k3 show as the 2k7 film was getting ready to come out Peter just started burning out. Comics came out that Peter had never seen (that Leo and Radical one comes to mind), he stopped working on volume 4 and the 2k3 show started to change in direction.

I just want you to think about the fact that Peter is only one guy and he is human and just maybe he didn't do everything he did to be nasty to the people that didn't like his vision. I do think those nasty people did help burn him out. When you work hard on something and the most vocal people coming back at you about it are all telling you how much they dislike it, I really don't blame anyone for wanting to walk away from it.

And people were cruel to Peter. He was no angel himself I will readily admit, but I can recall a time on this forum where he couldn't breath without there being a thread about how "old and fat and stupid" he was. People got to the point where they weren't even attacking the work anymore but just him and the other guys at Mirage.

Do I think Peter is perfect, not by any means. But I stated that in my original comment. I just feel like people have always been unfair to him, since at least I got heavily back into fandom in 2001. I probably won't change your opinion of him, cause I know we have went back and forth on here before about him, and I am completely cool with that I just wanted to show you my perspective of who Peter is, from my personal experiences and observations, thank you for taking the time to read all of this even if you don't agree!

Also just to state I have also met Kevin a few times and he was just as nice to me as Peter and as a person I like him a lot too. Just to throw that out there!
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:57 PM   #50
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As a fan I'm just really glad we have such a weird wide array of TMNT to enjoy and/or hate. Yeah, letting Saban do the Next Mutation was a mistake, but a really funny one that was more of a sign of the times than anything else. I loved what Laird did with the 2K3 show and loved Vol. 4 until it was never finished.

Eastman does seem like a yes man, but I'm sure I would be too if something I created was being spun off into weird iterations left and right. It would give me a big head and probably get me excited about my creations again. Remember, most of us would not be discussing the TMNT today had Fred Wolf not convinced E&L to compromise their original idea for the Turtles.
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Old 03-22-2013, 05:51 PM   #51
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As a fan I'm just really glad we have such a weird wide array of TMNT to enjoy and/or hate. Yeah, letting Saban do the Next Mutation was a mistake, but a really funny one that was more of a sign of the times than anything else. I loved what Laird did with the 2K3 show and loved Vol. 4 until it was never finished.

Eastman does seem like a yes man, but I'm sure I would be too if something I created was being spun off into weird iterations left and right. It would give me a big head and probably get me excited about my creations again. Remember, most of us would not be discussing the TMNT today had Fred Wolf not convinced E&L to compromise their original idea for the Turtles.
I have the book Batman And Me by Bob Kane, the Batman creator. He said that though a lot of people disliked the campy 1966 TV show, he credited it with reviving interest in Batman. Just as I'm sure that the TMNT would remain in obscurity if it weren't for the 1987 cartoon.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:44 PM   #52
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I'm on the side that believes Eastman and Laird are together the best of both worlds: open to "anything" / creating a consistent brand with integrity...to oversimplify what both men seem to offer (I've never met either in real life or talked with either online).

While I am not a Mirage purist at all, I still have a lot of empathy for Peter Laird and some of his attitudes and wishes. I think he helped put the 2k3 series on track, and his comments against aiming for the lowest common denominator strike a chord. He also seems to desire to create a consistent image for the Turtles, and I can understand his dislike of some of the other incarnations.

Gratitude for the exposure caused by these other versions isn't enough, in some cases, to erase the dislike of changes to one's own work.

Eastman seems more laid-back, and there are benefits to that.
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:09 PM   #53
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I'm not going to argue with Fearless Leader. I still find a lot of Laird's comments in his TMNT 2003 production notes to be rude, but if he has a nicer side, good for him.

Back on topic, can someone please provide some archived media displaying Eastman's involvement in The Next Mutation? I would like to read up on it?
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Old 03-25-2013, 06:11 PM   #54
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Good stuff, good stuff...
He participated in the infamous Bodycount arc simply for the sake of working with Bode and creating "the longest gunfight in comics history."...more good stuff, etc.
Bisley, not Bode, Old Man.
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