Why do most people hate the next mutation?

[Gunpowder]

I remember watching the first 10 episodes (approx.) while it was on Netflix. I didn't hate it...was actually sort of entertained by it, but I enjoyed it for its lameness, not because it had quality (it didn't). Laird himself hated it. Venus was only a thing because the network wouldn't have aired the show otherwise, and Eastman gave in. But Laird hated her with a passion.

I keep coming across the DVD's for this show, and contemplate buying them every time I do. But I doubt I will.

Originally Posted by turtlefanforever

If you've read all the hate before you see it you're already screwed and arent able to enjoy it and view it as the misunderstood gem it really is.

It was the opposite with me. I went into it with abysmal expectations, and ended up semi-enjoying it because of that. Same reason I ended up liking TMNT III - which I'll still willingly watch, and enjoy.

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

Venus wasn't a strong female character, she was a glorified The Girl trope that had overpowered magic abilities and was a annoying "fish out of water" type on top of it as she continually spoke phrases wrong and had to be corrected by the Turtles.

I kinda liked that, actually... Forgot about it til you mentioned it.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

There's no denying it was pretty low-budget. Bad lip syncing, shoddy costumes, a ton of reused stock footage, and TWO clip show episodes in a 26 part season.

As I mentioned in my previous post very typical of Saban productions.

Originally Posted by Prowler

I guess if it came out nowadays it'd be embraced by all the SJWs and such since "OMG female representation!" and wtv.

As well as the mainstream media and if Turtles fans went up in arms about her inclusion there would be articles reporting on fans being misogynist Internet trolls. See Ghostbusters for further reference.

[MathUser]

I don't hate it. I wanted to see it since I learned it was a sequel series to the movies. I like that they use the abandoned subway tunnel from TMNT2. I think the girl turtle bothered me some back then but now I don't mind. I watched almost the whole series now.

[sdp]

Another quarterly TNM thread with the same replies, I think instead of replying individually I should just write a huge ass post and post it every time this thread arises.

Real reason why people don't like TNM?
Most of the original fanbase were in their teens or early teens when the show came out so of course they weren't going to like it since it was aimed at kids. And when the it came to the internet the early adoters of it dictated the opinion future generations should have of a show which is why most "hate" it based on articles on popular websites than their own real opinion. I was a kid and thought this show looked awesome, sadly I didn't really get to see much of it until I was an adult, and of course if you watch it only as an adult and have read how bad it is then you'll see all the faults.

So I gathered most of the opinions and most of us agree the Power Rangers production doesn't work, it does for me but I understand why it doesn't. Most agree the suits aren't great. I think they're pretty good for TV quality, at least they can move around. Poor writing? Yes it's very inconsistent but not all of it was bad, there are some nice plots here and there.

The rest I thought they deserved individual responses.

Originally Posted by TurtleTitan97

Venus....

Originally Posted by DestronMirage22

lame villans, and Venus.

Originally Posted by Autbot_Benz

Venus

Originally Posted by pferreira

I also thought adding a fifth female Turtle ruined the whole thing. The irony of course is if this was done today it would be embraced by the mainstream media for being progressive.

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

I mean, it's definitely bad. And Venus as a
concept is creatively bankrupt, but she wasn't that bad of a character most
times.

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

Venus wasn't a strong female character, she was a glorified The Girl trope that had overpowered magic abilities and was a annoying "fish out of water" type on top of it as she continually spoke phrases wrong and had to be corrected by the Turtles. She wasn't a natural part of the group and just felt like a tacked on character that the Turtles could perv/romance over.

And shellboobs, and she's named after a artwork rather then an artist making her even more outside of the group. And calling Chinese Magic-Users for Shinobi.

Poor Venus gets a such a bad rap, especially since many people don't even bother to watch the show or only watch the first episode and get a bad idea about Venus with all these myths about her that constantly get re-posted on these threads all the time by most.

Venus was not romanced/pervd on, they only hint at it in two scenes or so in the pilot and never brought up again and it was never explicit, not any more than the OT turtles showing attention to April in a scene or two.

Shellboobs? I don't understand the problem, it's an easy way to make the sex obvious and only anti-furries or SJW should have a problem with it, for most of us it's just a design.

Over powered magic abilities? They were only used in the pilot and maybe another episode, so that's only true for the pilot. In fact it's kind of a plothole how it was later forgotten.

Badly written? Ironically she is the best written turtle of the show but no one seems to care.

Taking the spotlight? Another urban legend, she actually has the least focus episodes of all turtles and appears the same amount of time or less than the other turtles in your average episode.

These guys get it:

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

I certainly feel if Saban didn't force a "girl Turtle"
I like Venus but I do agree with the general consensus that her addition wasn't entirely the best.

Originally Posted by DevilSpooky

Now I'll get some hate from this but I do enjoy Venus, but the poor thing gets it rough, even in the show, the boys treat her like crap, always making fun of her and talk down to her, way to show kids how to treat girls Saban...

All in all, great ideias, really, REALLY poorly execution.

Now let's take a look at a big problemt he show has:

Originally Posted by Powder

As Jester & I have long said, it would've been a little bit less ridiculed if they hadn't been so trigger happy with the goofy sound effects. The fights were fluffy enough on their own, but hearing a clown horn when someone gets kicked really takes ALL the wind out of it.

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

as well as toning down the amount of sound effects and maybe fix the costumes, then Next Mutation would be an underrated entry in the franchise.

Originally Posted by dragonside

The sound effects = soooo stoop

so stoop

If they made the tone a bit more serious - and half the scenes not looking like a rag tag gorilla shot.

I think it could have been a good series.

The Sound effects. Here at the drome we realized this was a problem nearly ten years ago and a dromer made a video of the show without the goofy sound effects and it felt like an entirely different show.

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

but there's still a vast amount of good ideas in it. You got villains such as Silver, Vam Mi, and Simon Bonesteel who can certainly work, especially with the first two tying into gang wars and mysticism respectively.

Originally Posted by Tetsu Deinonychus

And, for every one of those there are millions who dislike it for being very poorly written and produced.
Of course, anyone who still liked it for what it was (I guess the villains like Dragon Lord, Vam Mi, and Bonesteel have some charm and I can see where someone might like Venus, I don't, but I can see why someone might). But, I think most would agree that it was just a really bad show, and not some sort of "misunderstood gem" that you're painting it as.

But, if you like it, more power to ya!

The villains are kind of a mixed bag, the show used original villains with the exception of Shredder and it actually succeeded, most of the rogues gallery are full of potential and are super interesting. That's were the problem is, many times the villains were not written correctly and made too silly like the Schumacher Batman villains but the few times they're written correctly they're so awesome. The villains deserve being used on another incarnation and used to their full potential.

Originally Posted by Tetsu Deinonychus

Not everyone who disagrees with you about a TV show is closed-minded or brainwashed or "on the bandwagon" or whatever you're accusing us of. By most people's standards it just wasn't a good show. If you found enough good about it to like it, by all means, watch it! Enjoy it! Just don't expect everyone to agree with you.


but will realize it's presence in TMNT history is fairly harmless.

When people defend the show they're not trying to say it's a great show, it's just a flawed show that gets too much undeserved hate as if it were the worst thing ever but it has plenty of redeeming features and most of the criticism isn't correct so I'm here defending it all the time, I like it but understand why people wouldn't, it's not great but it's not the worst thing ever.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

The series was way too juvenile and toned down for kids, much more than anything else.

Not much more than most TMNT media.

[Prowler]

Venus might get more flack than she deserves, but when you shoehorn a new main character in just like that, people are not gonna like it. The Turtles have always been four and all male, so suddenly there comes a new turtle... a female one to boot? And they pull the "you know, we're technically not related" card?

I know someone will say it's sexism now, but I wouldn't like(and neither would most people, I'd wager) if in, let's say, Sailor Moon, they suddenly shoehorned in a male sailor senshi. He'd look so out of place.

[UsagiYoJimBelushi]

it came off to me like a reaction to the rise in popularity of live action power rangers like shows. made it seem like an insincere contribution to the tmnt franchise.

[RaphaelinSTL]

I wanted to love it when I was young because I was always still a fan of the Ninja Turtles and it seemed like an awesome show being in live action. In fact, I actually used to wake up early when new episodes were on and taped them. I'm not sure what happened with me falling out of it later on, I think they just stopped airing them back to back or something else took my 10 year old mind away from it.

I know going back and watching it that there are elements I like and elements that STILL don't work for me. I like the idea of Dragon Lord and the Rank...but the execution of it all was bad....but Venus didn't work for me then and especially doesn't now. Watching it on Netflix at least gave me a few laughs but I HATE the new theme song they had to use compared to the old one.

Also, even as a kid I knew it was cheap because of this scene right here...Leonardo takes a bite out of an egg while the Turtles are hanging out in the park and then hides it behind his back. It's hilariously amateur. Go look at the 10:26 mark.

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

I have way more of a problem with Venus being an awkwardly shoe-horned in "5th Turtle" than I do with her being a woman. Other mutant turtle characters like Slash and Tokka are fine because they didn't join the group, and weren't ret-conned into being part of the TMNT's origin (I don't like that they did that with FW Mondo either). Also, calling Chinese sorcerers "Shinobi" is kinda messed up too.

Venus could work if she was a recurring character, not a main character, that has her own separate origin story, is called the proper term for a Chinese sorcerer (Wu, perhaps), and had a more defined personality of her own.

If they did all that, I wouldn't mind her reappearing in a future version. But, I'd prefer if they didn't bother. Or used my take on her...

...where she's a deranged fangirl who wants to be a Ninja Turtle.

But, I think if any Next Mutation character deserves to return, it's not Venus, it's Dragon Lord!

Originally Posted by sdp

Another quarterly TNM thread with the same replies

Well, I think that's part of the problem. I think Next Mutation would get a lot less flack around here if every Next Mutation thread didn't read like a desperate plea for more people to like it. If you like Next Mutation why not start a thread to just discuss some aspect of it like any other version of TMNT? Instead of "Why doesn't anybody like NM?" or "What would it take to get people to like Venus?" why not topics like "How about that Bonesteel?" or "How vast to you think Dragon Lord's army was?" You'll probably still get a few "NM sux!" posts but the people who like NM, and the people who don't but can discuss it maturely will have more positive things to talk about, and NM will seem less "persecuted" on this site.

Here, I went ahead and started one: http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=57516

Also, it would help if certain NM fans would stop constantly implying that people only dislike NM because they were brainwashed by the "anti-hype". It's very insulting.

[pferreira]

Unfortunately for sdp I did watch the show when it was shown back then and I didn't like it. No revisionist Chinese whispers for me. I saw it at the time and didn't like it. The Turtles as well as Splinter looked cheap. The locations weren't too bad I guess. I don't remember being annoyed with the silly sound effects but the sound quality was terrible. From what I remember every single thing was dubbed over. There was nothing natural about the show because from a sounds point of view it was totally dubbed over.

Originally Posted by Prowler

I know someone will say it's sexism now, but I wouldn't like(and neither would most people, I'd wager) if in, let's say, Sailor Moon, they suddenly shoehorned in a male sailor senshi. He'd look so out of place.

As I mentioned before today a fifth Turtle would be seen as progressive and fans disagreeing would be seen as misogynist trolls. Having said that Laird and Eastman both agreed adding Venus was a bad idea and they're the creators, not Saban. No offense to Saban but apart from his approach to business and his music he isn't really capable at anything creative, or hasn't shown it. I always found adding Venus a gimmick as adding females into an existing male franchise always is. I never understood why Leo needed to swap bandana colour with her? It was really confusing and unnecessary. The writers made good use of her in the show which is good but at the end of the day it just felt like a gimmick.

Originally Posted by RaphaelinSTL

Also, even as a kid I knew it was cheap because of this scene right here...Leonardo takes a bite out of an egg while the Turtles are hanging out in the park and then hides it behind his back. It's hilariously amateur. Go look at the 10:26 mark.

Wow, the episodes were only 15 minutes?! Why so short?

[plastroncafe]

I don't like the idea of a fifth turtle, and I like it less when that fifth turtle is female.

One of the tropes I like in my turtle media is the idea that they're outsiders. That they're the only four of their kind. Add a fifth turtle and you break that trope down. Add a female turtle and you start dissolving it.

Add to that the fact that the number of TMNT creators that are actually good at writing female characters is no where near as high as it should be, and ... yeah, not so much loving Venus in concept or in practice.

[Lisardo]

I did watch it and enjoyed it fairly ok, I'll admit. Some things were enjoyable like certain villians - Bonesteel, Vam Mi, etc. Also Mikey's radio show was kind of cool. Venus's magic powers were neat. One thing though, I swear I'm a Leo fan but something about him in this version irritated the S outta me, and I for once preferred Mikey and Donny the best.

Despite it's memorable parts though, I knew, even back then as a teenager, it was bad, for all the reasons already mentioned. However you have to realize at that point in time TMNT was dying out of popularity, so this was just an attempt to bring it back in some new light. It just didn't do as well as it could of. Being a product of Saban, ehhhh. The Power Rangers/NTM crossover was sort of cool, but poorly executed, and if memory serves, didn't have the same voice actors as the regulars in TNM.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Lisardo

and if memory serves, didn't have the same voice actors as the regulars in TNM.

You are correct. And they were all pretty bad.

[Rooish]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

You are correct. And they were all pretty bad.

This was the main thing that got to me; the voices just did not match the Turtle.

Venus was definitely gimmicky. She as a character was not bad but the "not related" plot line was puke-worthy.