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Old 10-30-2017, 03:02 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo View Post
Agree to Disagree there. It all comes down to our worldviews regarding what is inherently valuable and meaningful.

Do I believe abuse is wrong? Yes, but I think there are certain degrees of respect everyone deserves regardless of what they have done, by virtue of who or what they are. And parents by that definition are always worthy of respectful treatment by their children in my book.

Nope. Wrong. No "agree to disagree" or "with all due respect." Sometimes, people are just wrong. This is one of those times. You're wrong.

Here's two uncomfortable facts: Nobody asked to be born, and statistically, most kids are accidents. And among the many, many people who in fact WISH they were never born, much of the time, at least one of their two "DNA Donors" is in fact the main reason why they feel that way.

Many parents beat, insult, threaten, steal from, molest, rape, and altogether abuse their children. Not ONE of those people deserves even the tiniest modicum of respect. Not as a so-called "parent", or even a human being. You don't get a pass that absolves you of all your sins, just because you spunked inside of someone or were on the receiving end of same. I know some cultures and religions teach that you DO, or SHOULD, get that "pass"; not shockingly, those cultures have astronomically high levels of parental or familial abuse. Gee, it's almost as if they teach you that your parents are beyond judgment or reproach, and that you have to love and respect them no matter what, just so they can keep getting away with the abuse! Funny how that works, isn't it?

"You have to respect your parents no matter what" is the main thing an abuser will repeat over and over to justify their abuse, often WHILE the act of abuse is occurring. It's bullsh*t. It doesn't wash.

Many parents in my family were severely abusive. As a result, a lot of the children grew up to have serious mental illness. Some of them self-harm, a couple of them killed themselves, and several threatened or tried to. And in every case, at some point, there was an abusive parent screaming "I'm your mother/father! You HAVE to respect me! You wouldn't even BE here if it wasn't for me!" As if it was a favor, and we should be grateful for the living hell they delivered us into, when none of us even had a choice, and if we did, it's unlikely we would have chosen any of what we got.

Just to be clear, I do make a distinction between kids getting hit or spanked and full-blown abuse. I actually think spanking and the like, within reason, is actually kind of necessary. But if you're punching your kids in the face or throwing bottles at their head, you've crossed the line and no longer deserve any respect, as a parent or otherwise. To say nothing of sexual abuse and the like. If a guy rapes his daughter, she shouldn't "respect" him, and he shouldn't be allowed to keep breathing. "But he's her father!" Who HONESTLY f*cking cares, in that scenario?! At that point WHAT the f*ck does it MATTER that he's her father? Doesn't it matter MORE that he's a worthless scumbag? Come ON.

This should be pretty cut and dry. I don't know why it still isn't, for some people. People do NOT deserve automatic respect and admiration, just for being "parents", if they are in fact garbage human beings. To say they DO only enables abuse, and kind of makes you a bad person.

Sorry, but it's a pretty black-and-white scenario. People shouldn't enable abuse by coming up with loopholes for it.

Have a nice day.
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Last edited by Leo656; 10-30-2017 at 03:08 AM.
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Old 10-30-2017, 03:52 AM   #62
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Nope. Wrong. No "agree to disagree" or "with all due respect." Sometimes, people are just wrong. This is one of those times. You're wrong.
A pretty bold claim, lets tackle all of your points.

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Here's two uncomfortable facts: Nobody asked to be born, and statistically, most kids are accidents. And among the many, many people who in fact WISH they were never born, much of the time, at least one of their two "DNA Donors" is in fact the main reason why they feel that way.
Uncomfortable to whom? What are you trying to argue here? That life is only worth living if someone asked for it? Not only is that an incredibly egotistical, arrogant and self-centred way of looking at life, but it denies any intrinsic value due the worth of one's life being determined by their circumstances.

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Many parents beat, insult, threaten, steal from, molest, rape, and altogether abuse their children. Not ONE of those people deserves even the tiniest modicum of respect. Not as a so-called "parent", or even a human being. You don't get a pass that absolves you of all your sins, just because you spunked inside of someone or were on the receiving end of same. I know some cultures and religions teach that you DO, or SHOULD, get that "pass"; not shockingly, those cultures have astronomically high levels of parental or familial abuse. Gee, it's almost as if they teach you that your parents are beyond judgment or reproach, and that you have to love and respect them no matter what, just so they can keep getting away with the abuse! Funny how that works, isn't it?
You're misrepresenting my position, never did I claim that offering parents respect is a way of "absolving their sins". A sin is still a sin, regardless of who does it, but it does not negate the fact that we should treat others a certain way regardless of the circumstances. The inherent nature of cultures and religions that advocate for unconditional loving of parents is not one meant to make parents get away from abuse, but rather it is for the benefit of the children themselves. Unconditional love takes alot of ego busting and selflessness, but in the end it turns children into stronger and more firm people who not only are happier and more satisfied with life, but also prepared for challanges, as it won't take One or a million abusive parents to destroy their self-worth and their dignity.

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"You have to respect your parents no matter what" is the main thing an abuser will repeat over and over to justify their abuse, often WHILE the act of abuse is occurring. It's bullsh*t. It doesn't wash.
People will use any statement to justify abuse, no matter how true that statement may be. Respecting parents doesn't mean permitting them to scourge or slander you, Respecting parents means talking to them with utmost love and loyalty, and not going out of your way to curse and attack them. If anything, attacking and cursing will only make things worse, even in situations of abuse.

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Many parents in my family were severely abusive. As a result, a lot of the children grew up to have serious mental illness. Some of them self-harm, a couple of them killed themselves, and several threatened or tried to. And in every case, at some point, there was an abusive parent screaming "I'm your mother/father! You HAVE to respect me! You wouldn't even BE here if it wasn't for me!" As if it was a favor, and we should be grateful for the living hell they delivered us into, when none of us even had a choice, and if we did, it's unlikely we would have chosen any of what we got.
I can't speak of the personal situation that you or your siblings went through, but I can say that giving birth to children is not giving them a favour that they must pay you back for, that is a shallow way of looking at life so your parents were wrong in that regard.

True respect, both from children to parents and vice versa, is not a favour meant to benefit one party. No, not at all. That would not be respect at all, it would just be a bargain. Rather, true respect is to selflessly act towards another person at one's best no matter how bad the other person may be.
The key word is selflessly, with no expectation of any return benefit.

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Just to be clear, I do make a distinction between kids getting hit or spanked and full-blown abuse. I actually think spanking and the like, within reason, is actually kind of necessary. But if you're punching your kids in the face or throwing bottles at their head, you've crossed the line and no longer deserve any respect, as a parent or otherwise. To say nothing of sexual abuse and the like. If a guy rapes his daughter, she shouldn't "respect" him, and he shouldn't be allowed to keep breathing. "But he's her father!" Who HONESTLY f*cking cares, in that scenario?! At that point WHAT the f*ck does it MATTER that he's her father? Doesn't it matter MORE that he's a worthless scumbag? Come ON.
Will her disrespect of him undo any of the abuse and make her any happier? No, it will not change anything and only cause her to be more frustrated. I've already said this, but respect doesn't mean allowing someone to rape you. Whether we can escape abuse or not is a matter of circumstance, as sometimes help can be easily called for, while at other times people are unfortunately unheard in their cries. But it doesn't change the fact that getting frustrating, attacking, slandering and cursing will accomplish absolutely nothing of benefit, neither to the abuser nor the abused. That is the fact that is uncomfortable for many people to accept, as they lust and desire control over their life, trying to fill their egos.

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This should be pretty cut and dry. I don't know why it still isn't, for some people. People do NOT deserve automatic respect and admiration, just for being "parents", if they are in fact garbage human beings. To say they DO only enables abuse, and kind of makes you a bad person.

Sorry, but it's a pretty black-and-white scenario. People shouldn't enable abuse by coming up with loopholes for it.

Have a nice day.
Oh, it is clear and dry definetly for those with views opposing to yours, do not think that people who unconditionally honour their mother and father are ambigious about it.

They are the ones who are truly aware of how life really works, knowing that abuse does not enter a doorstep the moment someone "enables" it. That is the uncomfortable reality you must come to terms with, that pain and abuse cannot be avoided in this fallen world. Does that mean we will stop trying to find ways to avoid it and endorse abuse? Absolutely Not, but we must come to terms with it and accept it for what it is, not as an act of justification but for our own sake.

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Old 10-30-2017, 04:40 AM   #63
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Only one bit of all that actually holds much relevance, and it's why your entire argument fails:

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Respecting parents means talking to them with utmost love and loyalty
Abusive parents don't deserve that. Not even a little bit. That's where your point falls apart: You're saying that in spite of whatever horrific actions they've committed, they still deserve "love and loyalty". They deserve neither love nor loyalty. Maybe if they eventually repent, and are sincere about it, and take great measures to make reparations. Maybe. But absolutely not otherwise.

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I believe parents have a right to be treated with respect and honoured even if they're the most cruel and painful people you can imagine.

They have that right simply by being parents. Even expressing annoyance at them is absolutely forbidden in my moral values.
^^ That sh*t there? Straight up f*cking bananas. Indefensible.

I'm going to go out on a limb, and assume that you were never beaten or raped/molested by the same people who were responsible for raising you and teaching you morality. If I'm right, then by all means, count yourself extremely lucky, and be grateful.

But, I'm going to respectfully ask you to STOP telling people who HAVE been, how they're "supposed" to feel or react about it. You seem like a nice guy but your argument absolutely reeks of privilege.

Again: I ask you to stop telling people who've been physically and/or sexually abused by their parents that they should show them any kind of "respect", "love", or "loyalty". Those particular parents do NOT deserve any, and it's in no way your place to tell abuse victims the best way to engage their abuser. Whether you realize it or not, it belittles and diminishes what they've been through.

Just don't.
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Old 10-30-2017, 05:41 AM   #64
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I believe parents have a right to be treated with respect and honoured even if they're the most cruel and painful people you can imagine.

They have that right simply by being parents. Even expressing annoyance at them is absolutely forbidden in my moral values.
Even if they're the most cruel and painful people?

Let's see if your parents dunk your face down a pail full of acid - would you still treat them with "honor & respect"?
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Old 10-30-2017, 11:00 AM   #65
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Even if they're the most cruel and painful people?

Let's see if your parents dunk your face down a pail full of acid - would you still treat them with "honor & respect"?
Yes I still would, even if they tortured me day and night long using chainsaws and molten hot pitchforks. How much of a difference would it make to me in what is in my heart? Absolutely None.

The reason being is that I don't see true honour and respect as being something that is given out or taken as a commodity to make other people feel better or worse. True honour and respect are not meant to be given to the other person, they are for you, so that you will be at peace with the world around you. So no matter how painful life gets, how poor one may be, how much they have been oppressed, their spirit will always stay strong and will be able to endure any sort of challenge, as you will be able to see beauty even during life's ugliest moments.

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Old 10-30-2017, 11:06 AM   #66
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Just to be clear, I do make a distinction between kids getting hit or spanked and full-blown abuse. I actually think spanking and the like, within reason, is actually kind of necessary.
It needs to be there, on the shelf. Like the U.S. nuclear arsenal... we don't want to use it but if you really go crazy out there we can nuke your ass.
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Old 10-30-2017, 11:21 AM   #67
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Agree to Disagree there. It all comes down to our worldviews regarding what is inherently valuable and meaningful.

Do I believe abuse is wrong? Yes, but I think there are certain degrees of respect everyone deserves regardless of what they have done, by virtue of who or what they are. And parents by that definition are always worthy of respectful treatment by their children in my book.
I don't think you actually know what respect means.
I wouldn't deny someone basic human dignity, which I think is the concept you're talking about, and not respect.

Words have meaning.
Learn the words.
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Old 10-30-2017, 11:28 AM   #68
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I don't think you actually know what respect means.
I wouldn't deny someone basic human dignity, which I think is the concept you're talking about, and not respect.

Words have meaning.
Learn the words.
My definition of respect is different from yours.

I believe the core disagreement between me and everyone else here boils down to how we define respect, in addition to what life is worth. As I've said, I don't see respect as a commodity or a bargain at all that is given and taken, as that in my opinion is a shallow and selfish way of looking at it. Rather, respect is an attitude that one lives by throughout all of life and towards everyone.
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Old 10-30-2017, 11:30 AM   #69
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My definition of respect is different from yours.

I believe the core disagreement between me and everyone else here boils down to how we define respect, in addition to what life is worth. As I've said, I don't see respect as a commodity or a bargain at all that is given and taken, as that in my opinion is a shallow and selfish way of looking at it. Rather, respect is an attitude that one lives by throughout all of life and towards everyone.
How nice for you.
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Old 10-30-2017, 11:47 AM   #70
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My definition of respect is different from yours.

I believe the core disagreement between me and everyone else here boils down to how we define respect, in addition to what life is worth. As I've said, I don't see respect as a commodity or a bargain at all that is given and taken, as that in my opinion is a shallow and selfish way of looking at it. Rather, respect is an attitude that one lives by throughout all of life and towards everyone.


The meanings of words aren't really up for debate; part of the covenant of language is that we agree on what words will mean.
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Old 10-30-2017, 11:54 AM   #71
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http://78.media.tumblr.com/d7ce73e78...upoo1_1280.png

The meanings of words aren't really up for debate; part of the covenant of language is that we agree on what words will mean.
Definitions change over time, and there is always debate.
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Old 10-30-2017, 11:55 AM   #72
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Both me and my sister were either smacked on the bum (using a hand not using objects) or sent to our bedrooms or threatened to sent us to boarding school.

When my Dad was at School he said some teachers did some awful stuff. There was the usual hitting kids with a cane, pulling there ear, but there was also teachers throwing objects at kids and one teacher threw a kid across the room.

My Mums School wasn't that bad, they mostly made kids stand up for hours, if they were naughty.
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Old 10-30-2017, 11:59 AM   #73
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Definitions change over time, and there is always debate.
True. Some things change, some things stay the same, and sometimes you realize that there's a better word to describe what you're trying to say.
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Old 10-30-2017, 02:00 PM   #74
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Yes I still would, even if they tortured me day and night long using chainsaws and molten hot pitchforks. How much of a difference would it make to me in what is in my heart? Absolutely None.

The reason being is that I don't see true honour and respect as being something that is given out or taken as a commodity to make other people feel better or worse. True honour and respect are not meant to be given to the other person, they are for you, so that you will be at peace with the world around you. So no matter how painful life gets, how poor one may be, how much they have been oppressed, their spirit will always stay strong and will be able to endure any sort of challenge, as you will be able to see beauty even during life's ugliest moments.

Search up Palden Gyasto.

And you would be the world's biggest doormat for it. Let's be honest here- a parent is not going to change or be less abusive just because the child bows down to them. All that does is teach the child to roll over and take it. Take it from someone who has been through it. As a child with an abusive parent, there is no such thing as respect because it does not exist for that child. The child must fight back against the abuse in any way they can, even if it means simply standing up and refusing to give admiration or esteem for cruel and inhuman treatment. Showing "respect" to an abusive parent does not make the child stronger- it makes them weak and more likely to allow further abuse later in life. It makes them seek to avoid confrontation or stand up for themselves because they confuse respect with fear. Abusive parents are not trying to instill respect but fear. That is how they control children. It is purely oppressive and unworthy of true respect.

Respect means giving someone your admiration and treating them as worthy of such. An abusive parent is NOT worthy. Some people simply do not deserve admiration of any kind. Simply playing a part in creating a child does not entitle someone to the admiration of said child if the parent is cruel, abusive or neglctful. There are so many people out there who do not treat their children as human beings who deserve dignity and love, but as property that they can do whatever they want with. Those people are dispicable excuses for human beings and have no business being parents and are unworthy of the title.


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The meanings of words aren't really up for debate; part of the covenant of language is that we agree on what words will mean.

This exactly.
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Old 10-30-2017, 02:16 PM   #75
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And you would be the world's biggest doormat for it. Let's be honest here- a parent is not going to change or be less abusive just because the child bows down to them. All that does is teach the child to roll over and take it. Take it from someone who has been through it. As a child with an abusive parent, there is no such thing as respect because it does not exist for that child. The child must fight back against the abuse in any way they can, even if it means simply standing up and refusing to give admiration or esteem for cruel and inhuman treatment. Showing "respect" to an abusive parent does not make the child stronger- it makes them weak and more likely to allow further abuse later in life. It makes them seek to avoid confrontation or stand up for themselves because they confuse respect with fear. Abusive parents are not trying to instill respect but fear. That is how they control children. It is purely oppressive and unworthy of true respect.
The aim of respect is not to hope another person will change, nor is it to change their actions. A cruel parent will be cruel regardless of whether a child hates them or loves them. There are ways of fighting back against abuse without holding hatred in your heart for another person or going out of your way to curse and attack them.

And on the contrary, dealing with a situation without holding grudges is the very definition of strength. Its easy to start disrespecting and slandering an abusive parent, thinking it will make things better, but it only ends not only making them angrier, but hurting you as well from all the hatred and feelings of revenge.
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Old 10-30-2017, 02:22 PM   #76
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Unless you've got actual experience with regards to the topic at hand, I think it might be best for you to listen to those of us that do.

Because you're being awfully disrespectful otherwise.
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Old 10-30-2017, 02:28 PM   #77
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Unless you've got actual experience with regards to the topic at hand
And what If I do?
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Old 10-30-2017, 02:31 PM   #78
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And what If I do?
Then you're being a dick to people for reasons other than being holier than thou.
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Old 10-30-2017, 02:47 PM   #79
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It's not about changing them though. It is about denying them the thing they are supposedly demanding (verbally) while also refusing to just lie down and take their crap. Because there is no obligation to take it in silence just because it is "respectful". If someone is trying to hurt you, would you just keep your mouth shut and take it? Of course not. You would speak out, fight back, or seek help. It is no different just because it is a parent doing it. No one said anything about hating or holding grudges. But REAL respect (not fear or "acceptance") MUST be earned or it is worthless. What I said is that children should not have to just accept such treatment, but are within their right as human beings to refuse to acknowledge any form of regard for a parent who has abused their title. Again, respect means ADMIRATION and HIGH REGARD. It means that you deem someone worthy of your high esteem.

Sadly what you are talking about is NOT respect but blind loyalty. Something that does no one any good. It is the kicked dog syndrome, where it keeps returning to an abusive master out of dependance and misplaced loyalty in hopes of some sign of real affection. Children deserve better than that. They have NO obligation to give a cruel or neglectful parent their loyalty and high regard just because that person was responsible for their being born.

You also ignored the part of my post about how such abuse TRULY affects children. It leaves scars that last a lifetime and completely colors their relationships in later life. There IS no respect for a child whose parent(s) abuse them. They do not ever experience it themselves. What they learn is not respect but fear and how to avoid confrontation. That is not the same thing.

Doing what you are told and saying please, thank you, or keeping your mouth shut because a parent orders it (and will hit or otherwise hurt you if you don't) is not showing respect, it is bowing down out of fear and self-preservation. Nothing more. You are lucky if you had parents who actually gave you the kind of respect you think you mean, but for those of us who were not so lucky, you cannot possibly understand the difference. It is literally worlds apart.
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Old 10-31-2017, 12:34 AM   #80
Leo656
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This repeated insistence that an abuser automatically deserves honor and loyalty from their victims, simply by way of having spawned them, is SO f*cking wrong and insane.

Have you been inside a mental hospital, or even group counseling, "sir"? Have you seen, up close and personal, what the kind of abuse you're advocating does to its victims and their mental health? Do you have any idea how dangerous that "But they're your father/mother..." line is, and how it can push people into killing themselves?

Because I've gotten to know some of those people pretty well. And your attitude is toxic. I've listened to people - often women - talk about how they've felt "trapped" by their abusive circumstances, like nobody understood or cared about them, and how they were told over and over by their "family" that they had no choice but to accept the abuse and keep suffering - because after all, "They're your parents!" And a LOT of those people would honestly rather be dead, than show their worthless scumbag "parents" even the tiniest bit if "honor" or "respect". A lot of them DO try to kill themselves, and some of them succeed. Because all that bullsh*t does is reinforce the belief that their situation is hopeless, and that they don't matter.

It's not right that they feel that way. Telling them, "You HAVE to love and respect your parents, even if they treat you like sh*t," is part of WHY they feel that way. It's belittling them, and devaluing what they've been through. You're telling them that some ceremonial nonsense about "family" and "blood is thicker than water", counts for more than what they've been put through.

You. Are. Wrong.

Meanwhile, as others have pointed out, your very definition of "Respect" is warped. Firstly, Self-Respect comes before any other kind; if you don't respect yourself, you simply can't respect anyone else. Abuse robs people of their self-respect; justifying the abuse digs an even deeper hole. "Showing respect" to the person abusing you isn't actually "respect" at all, because again, the victim has been stripped of any self-respect, until they find a way to no longer be a victim. Thus, anything they show to their abuser is NOT "respect", it's merely platitudes, given in the hope of a respite from the abuse.

SO. First, the victim has to find a way to regain self-respect, and remove themselves from being a victim. Then, IF they choose, there can be a period of forgiveness and healing, and following that, POSSIBLY things can mend enough for them to once again show love and respect to their abuser, IF they wish it. But that's the only way it works, and it's entirely up to the victim. It is NOT a matter of, "Well, they're your parents!" No. 100% Wrong.

Since it's kind of to the actual topic of the thread, I'll use myself as a case in point. When I was a kid, I went to school with "suspicious" bruises often enough that DYFS was sent to the house several times. My mother sometimes got drunk and threw bottles and things at me. One time she tied my hands and feet with belts and then beat me with a thicker belt. We didn't have a single wooden cooking spoon in the house by a certain point, because she'd broken all of them over my back. My father once slammed my face onto a windowsill because I was taking too long to get ready for bed. Another time, when I was late for school, he chased me into the neighbor's house, beat me bloody with a long, thick branch, threw me in the car by my hair, drove me to school and pushed me out of the car onto the sidewalk, bleeding, in front of a bunch of people, then drove away, cursing at me.

There were lots of other stories. I lied to the school staff and DYFS because I didn't want to get put into a foster home. Plus, a lot of family members told me I "deserved" it, so I believed them. After a couple years of therapy and counseling that the school paid for, I saw things differently. Because the thing is, I wasn't getting hit because of anything I did wrong; they were just drug addicts, and I was just "in the way" by my very existence. Answer the phone for a bill collector? That's a beating. Accidentally hang up on Mom's drug dealer? That's a beating. And so on and so forth. It took a LONG time for me to realize they were completely wrong, because I'd been told otherwise by a lot of people.

After I turned 12, I got fed up and decided nobody was ever going to hit me again. The next time my Mom tried to use the belt, I took it from her and hit myself with it until I was bleeding all over; it scared her so much she never tried it again. After she died, Dad got worse on the drugs and turned mean. I didn't care. He liked to try and throw punches; I made him a promise, for every one he threw at me, he'd get two back, and mine were harder. I kicked my father's ass MANY times over the years, because he was an asshole and I am not a victim.

Now, this might sound crazy, BUT, through all of that, he and I DID reach a point of reconciliation and respect, but only AFTER he'd changed his ways. For his part, he told me many times that he respected and admired me for being someone who would never back down and always stand up for myself. And he did have a lot of admirable qualities as a human being, such as being extremely hardworking, very intelligent in certain areas, extremely generous - BUT I wasn't going to give him any credit for that sh*t while he was smoking crack, stealing all my money and trying to kick my ass! Once he was forced to change his ways, we were able to finally reach an understanding. NOT before.

I also respected him for being honest enough to admit that he never really "got" how to be a parent and that he probably wasn't cut out for it. Most people don't have that level of self-awareness. But that in itself was another huge step; all my life, while he was abusing me, it was "You're just a lousy rotten kid, and we never should have had you!" Later on, it was, "You didn't do anything wrong; I just never wanted to hear what you had to say (about the drugs and abuse), and I never figured out how to do what I was supposed to do." But even getting to a level where he could admit that, changed our entire relationship. Without that, we may not have reconciled.

Point of fact, his other kids skipped his funeral. One of them posted on Facebook that they were glad he was dead. I, the one he did way worse to, way more often, for many more years, was the one who was able to reach an understanding with him. Go figure.

SO, yeah. Call me an expert on the subject. That's why the whole, "Love and respect your parents no matter what, even if they're horrible" BS pisses me off. Because it's ignorant and dangerous. I've been on all sides of it; it's 100% up to the abuse victim how they engage their abuser. And if they say, "F*ck them, I don't care if they're my parents, they're dead to me," then that's entirely within their rights.

Try and be a little more respectful of THEM, please. Nobody on this Earth commands respect, simply because of who they are. To say they do is wrong. Period.
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