Could Alopex be worse than Tiger Claw? (contains spoilers)

*FredWolfLeonardo* · 12-25-2016, 09:21 PM

Do you think its possible that Alopex is actually worse than Tiger Claw on a moral level and that the turtles only really trusted her because the enemy of their enemy was their friend?

While Tiger Claw has done evil things no doubt, he atleast seems to have an honour code, he strongly dissaproved of Shredder blowing up the earth, was in disagreement about his alliance with the Kraang due to its affect on humanity and has his moments of not being so bad.

Alopex on the other hand, seems more questionable. Her motivation to come to New York City seemed to be solely for revenge on Tiger Claw, and in the past, it looked like she was the one who attacked her brother first with the intention of killing him. Not to mention she has cut off his tail and hand, not seeming to show much remorse.

Now I know she spared him at the end of their battle in "The Tale of Tiger Claw" and that Tiger Claw tried to kill her even after that, but there might be a whole other story behind his actions which only seem evil out of context.

What I can see happening is Tiger Claw eventually betraying Shredder at the end and eventually allies himself with the turtles after he fails to defeat them in season 5 while Alopex betrayer the turtles and possibly joins the Shredder if he is still alive by then (Alopex is a professional assassin like her brother, after all)

What are your thoughts?

*victory_angel* · 12-25-2016, 11:02 PM

All we truly know is what the narrative told us. I don't speak or understand Korean so this is purely speculation until the English version comes out.

But the context that we know so far thanks to the clip shown at New York Comic Con is that Tiger Claw and Alopex had been children growing up in a small village in Japan. A portal to a Kraang detention center opened up and the two of them curiously entered it. They were captured by the Kraang and mutated into a tiger and fox before they managed to escape.

Because they were no longer human, they saw themselves as outcasts and left. In order to survive the two of them joined a circus, and later used their skills as Assassins. Eventually, Alopex supposedly turned on Tigerclaw and attacked him slicing off his tail.

But this story is only from Tiger Claws point of view.

Alopex I don't believe is the bad guy here, but she also isn't a friend of the Turtles, at least not yet. Alopex in this series is loosely based off of Ninjara. Ninjara herself didn't want anything to do with the turtles when she first met them either but gradually later learns to know and respect them as her friends and allies.

She has the chance to kill Tiger Claw in their battle but chooses to spare him this time. Heck, the Turtles choose not to go after Tiger Claw when he's wounded.

Tiger Claw on the other hand despite the mercy he received picks up his gun and tries to shoot Alopex from behind. Striking or Killing an opponent from behind is often seen as not honorable or the act of a coward. And that was why she cut off his hand.

If she was truly a villain, she would have killed her brother without a second thought.

~~TMNTInsighter~~ · 12-27-2016, 08:36 AM

Tiger Claw may be my favorite villain in the series, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't care if I see him knocked off at any point in the series. Other than a couple moments of his in "Darkest Plight", he has been an absolute disaster this season starting with ELS.

I've mentioned what Ciro talked about in the spotlight video on TC's character before--about how his future involves leaving the Foot Clan b/c that's what his ultimate goal lies outside of that and such. It's actually very logical at least as far as I'm concerned since it would give a lot of depth to his character. And after what we saw of him in part 2 of AE, ELS was a perfect opportunity to get that thread going and they blew it! Everyone has their own issues with ELS but the fact that they didn't even so much as plant any seeds of doubt in TC's head (not to mention making him look like a total idiot with regards to the situation b/w Shredder and Splinter) is perhaps the real reason I can't get over that episode! I thought that after the episode, however much you hurt Tiger Claw it's not enough, and even after Alopex removed TC's hand I'm still not sure it's enough! That's how disappointed with him in ELS that I was.

You've said yourself Fred that Tiger Claw seems to have an honor code and has had issues with some of Shredder's orders. That's part of what makes him an interesting character, especially in my eyes, but it's also what makes him very frustrating since he never acted on those doubts. He did nothing after noting how dangerous Shredder's trap was in "Vengeance is Mine" and the consequences, especially with regards to Karai (who I'll get to in a bit), showed it! He was also unhappy with Shredder letting the Kraang invade NY in "The Invasion" and "Return to New York" and yet he still did nothing! This is what makes choice such a relevant theme in series's like this and when you have a villainous character like Tiger Claw struggling with a theme like that, it usually leads to one of two final outcomes: dead or redemption. And I know it's a bit much of a stretch to ask for his death with regards to the demographics and the rules that this series has to abide by, but it actually seems very fitting given the direction that his character and this series is going in. I've also mentioned elsewhere how fitting it would be for Karai, the former second in command who also had an uneasy loyalty towards Shredder (even before she found out who her real family was) yet made the choice to leave, to be the one to kill the current second in command--who also has had an uneasy loyalty towards Shredder yet still made the choice to stay. Alopex may need more appearances for me to make an appropriate judgement of her but I've seen enough of Tiger Claw to know that I can't take his side over Alopex as far as these two are concerned.

P.S. If you watched the clip where he summons Kavaxas and caught that he said that once Kavaxas would be summoned then his powers would be his, this is a red flag (at least for me) that Shredder may meet his end within the last two episodes of this season since normally Tiger Claw would hand power like this over to his master. So unfortunately it looks like Tiger Claw may just be doing what he's trying to do next season in a sad way to avenge Shredder, again reinforcing my point that this guy either has to redeem himself or he has to pay for it via death somehow in order for his character arc to conclude satisfactorily next season.

*FredWolfLeonardo* · 02-12-2017, 07:32 PM

I just watched the English version of the Tale of Tiger Claw and many more details were revealed about both Alopex and Tiger Claw. At this point, I'm inclined to think that they both on an equal footing and that their conflict is partially due to misunderstanding and lies about each other.

Alopex was more revenge inclined in the episode and wanted to outright kill Tiger Claw. She also accused Tiger Claw of making her responsible for being a mutant when it was the Kraang, so she might be making lies up to convince herself that Tiger Claw needs to be killed. It was shown at one point that Tiger Claw attempted to reason and talk with her but Alopex preferred fighting.

Tiger Claw on the other hand could be the real villain here if all the stories Alopex told about him (killing their family, forcing her into a life of crime) are indeed true. He also tried to maliciously kill her at the end of the episode, even when she spared his life so there's that.

12-25-2016, 09:21 PM	#1
FredWolfLeonardo Big Blue Boy Scout Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: New Bark Town Posts: 4,484	Could Alopex be worse than Tiger Claw? (contains spoilers) Do you think its possible that Alopex is actually worse than Tiger Claw on a moral level and that the turtles only really trusted her because the enemy of their enemy was their friend? While Tiger Claw has done evil things no doubt, he atleast seems to have an honour code, he strongly dissaproved of Shredder blowing up the earth, was in disagreement about his alliance with the Kraang due to its affect on humanity and has his moments of not being so bad. Alopex on the other hand, seems more questionable. Her motivation to come to New York City seemed to be solely for revenge on Tiger Claw, and in the past, it looked like she was the one who attacked her brother first with the intention of killing him. Not to mention she has cut off his tail and hand, not seeming to show much remorse. Now I know she spared him at the end of their battle in "The Tale of Tiger Claw" and that Tiger Claw tried to kill her even after that, but there might be a whole other story behind his actions which only seem evil out of context. What I can see happening is Tiger Claw eventually betraying Shredder at the end and eventually allies himself with the turtles after he fails to defeat them in season 5 while Alopex betrayer the turtles and possibly joins the Shredder if he is still alive by then (Alopex is a professional assassin like her brother, after all) What are your thoughts?

12-25-2016, 11:02 PM	#2
victory_angel Foot Elite Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Ca Posts: 3,103	All we truly know is what the narrative told us. I don't speak or understand Korean so this is purely speculation until the English version comes out. But the context that we know so far thanks to the clip shown at New York Comic Con is that Tiger Claw and Alopex had been children growing up in a small village in Japan. A portal to a Kraang detention center opened up and the two of them curiously entered it. They were captured by the Kraang and mutated into a tiger and fox before they managed to escape. Because they were no longer human, they saw themselves as outcasts and left. In order to survive the two of them joined a circus, and later used their skills as Assassins. Eventually, Alopex supposedly turned on Tigerclaw and attacked him slicing off his tail. But this story is only from Tiger Claws point of view. Alopex I don't believe is the bad guy here, but she also isn't a friend of the Turtles, at least not yet. Alopex in this series is loosely based off of Ninjara. Ninjara herself didn't want anything to do with the turtles when she first met them either but gradually later learns to know and respect them as her friends and allies. She has the chance to kill Tiger Claw in their battle but chooses to spare him this time. Heck, the Turtles choose not to go after Tiger Claw when he's wounded. Tiger Claw on the other hand despite the mercy he received picks up his gun and tries to shoot Alopex from behind. Striking or Killing an opponent from behind is often seen as not honorable or the act of a coward. And that was why she cut off his hand. If she was truly a villain, she would have killed her brother without a second thought. __________________

12-27-2016, 08:36 AM	#3
~~TMNTInsighter~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: South Carolina Posts: 429	Tiger Claw may be my favorite villain in the series, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't care if I see him knocked off at any point in the series. Other than a couple moments of his in "Darkest Plight", he has been an absolute disaster this season starting with ELS. I've mentioned what Ciro talked about in the spotlight video on TC's character before--about how his future involves leaving the Foot Clan b/c that's what his ultimate goal lies outside of that and such. It's actually very logical at least as far as I'm concerned since it would give a lot of depth to his character. And after what we saw of him in part 2 of AE, ELS was a perfect opportunity to get that thread going and they blew it! Everyone has their own issues with ELS but the fact that they didn't even so much as plant any seeds of doubt in TC's head (not to mention making him look like a total idiot with regards to the situation b/w Shredder and Splinter) is perhaps the real reason I can't get over that episode! I thought that after the episode, however much you hurt Tiger Claw it's not enough, and even after Alopex removed TC's hand I'm still not sure it's enough! That's how disappointed with him in ELS that I was. You've said yourself Fred that Tiger Claw seems to have an honor code and has had issues with some of Shredder's orders. That's part of what makes him an interesting character, especially in my eyes, but it's also what makes him very frustrating since he never acted on those doubts. He did nothing after noting how dangerous Shredder's trap was in "Vengeance is Mine" and the consequences, especially with regards to Karai (who I'll get to in a bit), showed it! He was also unhappy with Shredder letting the Kraang invade NY in "The Invasion" and "Return to New York" and yet he still did nothing! This is what makes choice such a relevant theme in series's like this and when you have a villainous character like Tiger Claw struggling with a theme like that, it usually leads to one of two final outcomes: dead or redemption. And I know it's a bit much of a stretch to ask for his death with regards to the demographics and the rules that this series has to abide by, but it actually seems very fitting given the direction that his character and this series is going in. I've also mentioned elsewhere how fitting it would be for Karai, the former second in command who also had an uneasy loyalty towards Shredder (even before she found out who her real family was) yet made the choice to leave, to be the one to kill the current second in command--who also has had an uneasy loyalty towards Shredder yet still made the choice to stay. Alopex may need more appearances for me to make an appropriate judgement of her but I've seen enough of Tiger Claw to know that I can't take his side over Alopex as far as these two are concerned. P.S. If you watched the clip where he summons Kavaxas and caught that he said that once Kavaxas would be summoned then his powers would be his, this is a red flag (at least for me) that Shredder may meet his end within the last two episodes of this season since normally Tiger Claw would hand power like this over to his master. So unfortunately it looks like Tiger Claw may just be doing what he's trying to do next season in a sad way to avenge Shredder, again reinforcing my point that this guy either has to redeem himself or he has to pay for it via death somehow in order for his character arc to conclude satisfactorily next season. Last edited by TMNTInsighter; 12-27-2016 at 10:23 AM.

02-12-2017, 07:32 PM	#4
FredWolfLeonardo Big Blue Boy Scout Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: New Bark Town Posts: 4,484	I just watched the English version of the Tale of Tiger Claw and many more details were revealed about both Alopex and Tiger Claw. At this point, I'm inclined to think that they both on an equal footing and that their conflict is partially due to misunderstanding and lies about each other. Alopex was more revenge inclined in the episode and wanted to outright kill Tiger Claw. She also accused Tiger Claw of making her responsible for being a mutant when it was the Kraang, so she might be making lies up to convince herself that Tiger Claw needs to be killed. It was shown at one point that Tiger Claw attempted to reason and talk with her but Alopex preferred fighting. Tiger Claw on the other hand could be the real villain here if all the stories Alopex told about him (killing their family, forcing her into a life of crime) are indeed true. He also tried to maliciously kill her at the end of the episode, even when she spared his life so there's that.