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Old 01-31-2019, 08:43 PM   #461
Toxin45
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Well the last movie was sold to an audience that everyone assumed only knew or cared about the cartoon(s) and it tanked.

I'm not being a curmudgeon on this. I grew up with the 80s show and love it for what it is, I've never felt that it easily lent itself to a live action setting but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't at least curious about about a movie with the Fred Wolf show as it's main inspiration.

Thing is for a long time people have been screaming very loudly how the 80s show in live action was basically a license to print money and the only version the general audience would ever accept. We know people in Hollywood that have handled the property have felt the same way but there's always been something that has stopped the movies going fully in that direction but finally they were able to do it in climate just right for it...and it failed.

It's not like this was some bastardized version of the cartoon. Bebop & Rocksteady, Krang, the Technodrome (when it was fully assembled) looked and were characterized exactly how you'd want them to be, they even pulled from specific episodes particularly the Eye of Sarnath stuff. Sure, there were a few things that fell short, the turtle designs even weirdly smoothed out still didn't really fit and we didn't get a proper Technodrome battle which I'm sure was an issue of budget but ultimately it was a more than reasonable version of the old show. Even stuff that I personally felt made the old show look like Shakespeare like the Loony Tunes-esque physics and absurd Party Wagon with flailing nunchuk arms is something else people have incessantly argued for. The whole idea that the only way to do TMNT is to really lean into the goofyness and yet the public largely turned their noses up at it.

If fans still want to argue the case for the old show fair enough but you can no longer use the argument this is the only version the general public will accept because they had it and did not accept it. The question now is if general public wont accept that what will they accept?

I know some people will argue that the 2014 movie made money purely out of curiosity (and of course soured people in "superior" sequel) but I just don't buy that. Yeah it was garbage and a lot of us could see it was going to be garbage early on and it never really recovered from "It's just a mask. See?" But to a lot of people it just looked much more like a modern comic book movie, even the marketing was aimed at the same audience that make those movies a hit as opposed to the bizarre attempt at a coalition of 30-somethings and 8-12 year olds the sequels marketing was aimed at.

"Hey kids d'ya like TMNT on Nickelodeon? Well here's your dad's version"

The 2014 movie didn't fall short because it had ever so slightly serious and had a smidgen of edge in the visuals. It was just a good take on these things and yeah I feel if the foundation had been the Mirage story and they were not dead set on the idea that this was a new version and thus you had to completely re-imagine it, it would have been better. You could still easily fit the whole captured and escaping down a snowy mountain in a Mirage inspired story.

I don't think anyone - even Andrew is advocating a panel for panel recreation of the Mirage comic and most of what people like about TMNT is either already present in the original but you could easily put in a lot of what works in Hollywood now just like 1990 movie did.
So do you like the mirage,Archie,and idw comics? Just asking.

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Old 01-31-2019, 09:35 PM   #462
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It could have been the greatest movie ever made and it would have tanked because it was a sequel to the 2014 movie. No one was going to show up for a sequel to a movie nobody liked.
I don't buy that.

I'm sure some people were put off but Paramount and Platinum Dunes did a very effective job with their promotion. Basically selling the entire thing as the biggest apology ever, every trailer made it abundantly clear this was going to be a very different movie to the first.

They listened to the fans and fixed all that was perceived to be wrong with the first. Trying to be "dark" and "serious"? Well this is a complete goofy slapstick, Not enough like the old cartoon? Well here's everything from the old cartoon. Problem is I don't think these were the real problems with the 2014 movie.

Also the first movie not only had a good opening but had decent legs against Guardians of the Galaxy whereas the sequel had a full two weeks to turn it's poor opening around before Finding Dory was released. Positive word of mouth could done that; it didn't.

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So do you like the mirage,Archie,and idw comics? Just asking.
I like all of 'em.

I'm not sure the Archie book would make a good basis for a movie. Turtles with a globetrotting theme could work since I think that's what Platinum Dunes would like.

In the Blue Door script the four turtles scatter to different parts of the world. I vaguely remember them saying that in Out Of The Shadows they originally planned to have two of the macguffins to open the portal to be in two separate countries but I'm guessing time and budget meant they stuck with Brazil and probably left China for the third movie.

Not sure how the political and environmental themes would go down. Turtles fighting for a free Tibet and avenging murdered Labour union leaders in Brazil might not sit well with some people in this climate. Besides one of the more important characters in that run is owned by her creators so Ninjara is out.

I wouldn't say no to an IDW based movie. In many ways it's almost seems as if Waltz made with intention of being something to pass round a Hollywood board room. It's take on the origin in particular is something I could see appealing to Hollywood execs...a few years ago. They are a lab experiment gone wrong and reincarnated ancient Japanese warriors.

I've often argued that we shouldn't accept that people knowing the turtles origin is a given but if we reasonably take a chance on them knowing the ooze, raised in sewer part of the origin something like Secret History of the Foot Clan would be a good basis for a movie.

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Old 01-31-2019, 11:08 PM   #463
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I don't buy that.

I'm sure some people were put off but Paramount and Platinum Dunes did a very effective job with their promotion. Basically selling the entire thing as the biggest apology ever, every trailer made it abundantly clear this was going to be a very different movie to the first.

They listened to the fans and fixed all that was perceived to be wrong with the first. Trying to be "dark" and "serious"? Well this is a complete goofy slapstick not enough like the old cartoon? Well here's everything from the old cartoon. Problem is I don't think these were the real problems with the 2014 movie.
I mean, we're both just talking theory here, but... I can't think of a single example where a sequel to a universally panned movie outperforms it's predecessor, can you?

The goodwill of the franchise pretty much lands squarely on the first entry. If it's too far off the mark the first time, people won't come back. Even though OOTS had Bebop, Rocksteady, and Krang - you're still stuck with 9 feet tall superpowered bulletproof mutants clowning around with Megan Fox who learned ninjitsu from a coffee table book.

The first movie rubbed alot of people the wrong way, and in my opinion, rightfully so.
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Old 01-31-2019, 11:14 PM   #464
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I don't remember it being "universally" panned.

I remember many, many viewers AND critics opining that, while by no means a "good movie", the first BayTurtles movie was "exactly the right amount of stupid as TMNT is supposed to be," and meaning it in a positive way.

Granted, I did and do want to throttle those people, but nevertheless, that's what they said. "It's stupid, like TMNT's always been stupid. So if you're stupid, and you like stupid things, it's just stupid enough for you, stupid. It's not good but it's what it should be."

Obviously the overall temperature has turned by NOW, but I remember a lot of enthusiasm at the time, although it was damning with faint praise to say the least.
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Old 01-31-2019, 11:35 PM   #465
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I think you're remembering wrong, homie. What you're describing is more the reception of Out of the Shadows. The "buzz" around the first movie was almost all negative. It all started with the whole being aliens thing and they never recovered from there. Even now it sits at 22% on RT with a 51% audience score. Hardly a passing grade.

It has it's fans, sure - what doesn't? - but by and large nobody really liked it.
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Old 01-31-2019, 11:54 PM   #466
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I mean, we're both just talking theory here, but... I can't think of a single example where a sequel to a universally panned movie outperforms it's predecessor, can you?
Well the Transformers films made less domestically but they made more and more worldwide.
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Old 02-01-2019, 12:07 AM   #467
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Yeah, but most people liked the first one anyways so it's a moot point.
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Old 02-01-2019, 01:29 AM   #468
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I think you're remembering wrong, homie. What you're describing is more the reception of Out of the Shadows. The "buzz" around the first movie was almost all negative. It all started with the whole being aliens thing and they never recovered from there. Even now it sits at 22% on RT with a 51% audience score. Hardly a passing grade.

It has it's fans, sure - what doesn't? - but by and large nobody really liked it.
I don't know, I can only call what I saw. I don't go on many websites, but all I saw anywhere from Cracked to Screen Rant was, "TMNT was always dumb, if you don't think so you just got too old to remember, so just turn your brain off and go with it." That was from the beginning, and then they just doubled down on it for the sequel. Not to mention in "Real Life", anyone I've ever talked to who's seen that movie just raves about it (and the sequel). They're "perfect" and "just like the cartoons!" as far as they're concerned. I've only ever talked to a few people who thought it was bad. Most people in my circle who wouldn't have liked it just didn't bother watching it. Anyone I've talked to about it just wonders why the hell a movie about TMNT was even 1% serious to begin with. So we don't talk about it much. They just ask me if I'm still a TMNT fan, and I say "no" so we don't have to talk about the movies at all. It's... simpler.

But I vividly remember seeing and being told that I was foolish for wanting a good movie way before we heard anything about Bebop and Rocksteady. Not to mention, this forum was overwhelmed with "fans" from the jump, while people like me were constantly on the defensive for pointing out what was wrong with it, or where the filmmakers had flat-out lied about this or that. Some of them were undoubtedly plants but many of them are still here, and have no problem explaining why they think it's great.

I mean, yeah obviously most critics gave it poor marks but that was to be expected, the movies weren't for them. I do know that there was already a vocal chorus of "This is Just Fine, stop taking things seriously" going back to the first one, and they all just got way louder for the second one.

Anyways, no, I could introduce you to people who even think the first one was great. I can't in good conscience call anything "universally" anything if I personally encounter the exact opposite phenomenon on a regular basis, even if it's almost certainly true-ish. I can't call what I don't see.

I do agree in general, though, that most people with any taste at all probably didn't care for it, but they also probably didn't watch it, or only did so because it was their job. People who went into it willingly tend to have a much higher opinion of both movies, I've noticed. Be it lowered expectations or something else entirely, a lot of people got exactly what they wanted and they don't mind telling you about it.

I think what puts me in the minority is that the second one seemed worse.
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Old 02-04-2019, 10:51 PM   #469
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I don't really buy that critics will always give TMNT bad reviews. In the past few years there's been a huge increase in critics lauding the kind of movies that would previously have confounded them.

The reason for this is that a new generation of movie critics have come into the profession that are of the age to "get" comic book movies and have gotten into prominent positions for their nerd cred since basically that's the dominant genre by far. If there's any point in history that TMNT wouldn't just be instantly be written of as trash it's now; it just has to be a good TMNT movie.

True, audiences tend to be more forgiving than critics. For me the friends that I went to see the 2014 movie didn't care for it but didn't think it was quite the travesty I did but kinda liked the snow chase scene.

One thing that stuck out to me is that they all "could see what they were going for" but didn't quite get there. I found that attitude much more prevalent with movie apologists online. While a lot of stuff like Eric Sachs and learning ninjitsu from a book was garbage it's fair to say not every idea the movie put forward was bad but they were certainly executed badly. I think a lot of people the movie's defenders could see that and were "willing" the movie series to do better with these ideas.

Plus a lot of these people saw things that just were not there. I had tons of conversations both here and other boards with people who were convinced Splinter's comment about not remembering anything prior to being in the lab meant we were going to get Hamato Yoshi and Oroku Saki backstory in some way, the comment about the mutagen being from space was clearly to set up that Shredder had some connection to Krang and whole mythology was subtly being laid out. They knew the first movie wasn't the best but now they've ironed out the problems the sequel will redeem all this promise.

In many ways it reminded me how DCEU fans were (sorry Leo) with some being denial (critics are all paid off by Disney) and others grudgingly acknowledging that while the Snyder ones were not good somehow, someway it will all work with next Snyder DC movie and then the next.

Y'know I wonder if that somehow factored in to Out Of The Shadows failure. If you to some degree were optimistic about this new vision of TMNT and the mythology you thought was being built and you see that sequel goes a complete 180 and jettisons all that and is just a movie for kids you might give up on it too.

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Old 02-27-2019, 09:35 AM   #470
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I don't really buy that critics will always give TMNT bad reviews. In the past few years there's been a huge increase in critics lauding the kind of movies that would previously have confounded them.

The reason for this is that a new generation of movie critics have come into the profession that are of the age to "get" comic book movies and have gotten into prominent positions for their nerd cred since basically that's the dominant genre by far. If there's any point in history that TMNT wouldn't just be instantly be written of as trash it's now; it just has to be a good TMNT movie.
Yup. Nailed it. I don't see why the same critics that would give Bumblebee critical praise would draw the line at TMNT.
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Old 03-05-2019, 11:55 AM   #471
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I know it's going to make me look a bit biased, but they should really use the 1990 movie as a main inspiration. Don't have a TMNT be about saving the world. Have it low key. Have the Turtles stop a crime wave. The Turtles to me have always worked best when they, for example, take down an entire crime ring, and no one outside of it knows about it.

Have the Turtles have that brotherly bond that's important for their type of characters. Also, don't have them 6 foot tall, hulking behemoths that look like they can easily smash a truck door open with their bare fists (because if they can do that, who needs stuff like Bo Staffs and Swords?). Hvae a more traditional look, while also doing some twists on the look to better differentiate them (like the 2012 show)

But most importantly, write a good script. Learn from your previous mistakes
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Old 03-05-2019, 12:16 PM   #472
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Good script. Go back to the Mirage comics and start again, but modernized to 2019.
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Old 03-05-2019, 12:23 PM   #473
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that look like they can easily smash a truck door open with their bare fists
Or, as the case may be, Mikey smashing his fist through the roof of one. Or throwing around shipping containers in the beginning. Or somehow jump through the side of a van with no way to even get the momentum required to even try to bust through it. I can put up with them being bigger than typical (though 6'+ is definitely a bit much), but that stuff is absurd. They still shouldn't be doing that stuff for gods sake. Maybe they're mutants, and maybe they're a little stronger than a typical human, but they shouldn't mean they're superhuman, so to speak.



I don't mind the world saving stuff, they've done it plenty enough, but it would be nice IF somehow it was good enough to garner it a whole bunch of sequels and save the world saving for much later, keeping it simple in early films and letting them grow into a larger role as time goes on.
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Old 03-05-2019, 12:43 PM   #474
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Good script. Go back to the Mirage comics and start again, but modernized to 2019.
This man speaks the most sense. To me, anyway

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I don't mind the world saving stuff, they've done it plenty enough, but it would be nice IF somehow it was good enough to garner it a whole bunch of sequels and save the world saving for much later, keeping it simple in early films and letting them grow into a larger role as time goes on.
Exactly. The world saving aspect would be a lot more interesting if we spent a few movies getting to know the characters first, develop them, establish the world these characters live in and THEN have someone who puts the world at risk in the final movie of the trilogy
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Old 03-05-2019, 04:10 PM   #475
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With an actual, physical "script" becoming less and less important in modern "blockbuster" filmmaking - indeed, the vast majority of these things either shoot with NO script, or, only the barest summary of one - you guys sure have a lot of hope.

And make no mistake, for as expensive as any TMNT movie will have to be, they're definitely going to keep pushing them as slightly-smaller versions of the bigger CBMs - heavy on spectacle and SFX. Which means, most likely, they're NOT going to sit down and write a story A-to-Z - even if the logistics of basic storytelling demand it. No, what they're going to keep doing is, imagine a spectacular "set piece" like the snow chase in the first BayTurtles movie, and then retrofit the entire film around that one expensive bit.

That's how these movies are made nowadays, and that's what's going to happen with every TMNT movie going forward. Script? HAH! How quaint. Don't hold your breath.
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Old 03-05-2019, 04:52 PM   #476
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I feel like the best we can reasonably hope for, at this point, is a quality family friendly action film. Something like "How to Train your Dragon", "Big Hero 6", or, hell, maybe even Spider-Verse, when it comes to tone and quality. Watch Lorde and Miller take an interest the franchise.

Of course, I'd rather have something inspired by the Mirage or IDW comics. I'd do terrible things for a great film based on the books. But the above description, to me, is sort of a middle-ground that I could truly appreciate, if done well.
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Old 03-16-2019, 06:33 AM   #477
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Good script. Go back to the Mirage comics and start again, but modernized to 2019.
This is the only right way to do it, honestly.
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Old 03-16-2019, 11:52 AM   #478
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Good script. Go back to the Mirage comics and start again, but modernized to 2019.
Right but this is nick so proably not.
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Old 03-17-2019, 09:03 PM   #479
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Right but this is nick so proably not.
Whether Mirage continues or not, you really should stop insisting to spite those that love it.
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Old 03-17-2019, 09:36 PM   #480
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Whether Mirage continues or not, you really should stop insisting to spite those that love it.
I wasn't dude jeez.
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