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Old 05-13-2018, 08:33 PM   #1
victory_angel
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Could Same as it Never Was and Fast Forward happen in the same time stream?

The 2k3 incarnation of the Ninja Turtles had a number of episodes that do spark fan intrigue. One of the most heartbreaking episodes of that particular incarnation of TMNT is called “Same as it Never Was”.

For people who have not seen this episode, it is part of a story arc called the “Real World Arc” where the Turtles are attacked in their lair by a composite villain known as Ultimate Drako.

The Ninja/Dragon fusion proceeds to scatter each of the Turtles and Splinter across the time and space in his desire to achieve vengeance. And the world Donnie is sent to is the worst one of them all, because he is sent to a dystopian version of New York where Utrom Shredder has oppressively taken over the world. Leaving the surviving populace of Earth either cowering in fear or struggling as part of a dwindling resistance.

While here he encounters older and heavily scarred versions of his brothers, as well as an older version of April. Donnie helps organize his family into one last fight against the Shredder which ultimately leads to the Shredder’s defeat. But it also leads to Donnie witnessing the tragic deaths of his brothers as well.

Now you might ask, why Donnie was the one who witnessed this horrible future. Why not Raph or Mikey? And the answer to that is simply...reasons.

Now I could point out that it’s possible, Donnie’s world may have been punishment for interfering in the assassination attempt upon the Ultimate Daimyo and Leonardo. But I don’t think that was actually the case. While Raph, Donnie, and Mikey were punishable by association, they really were not the people that the Ultimate Dreko was interested in destroying. The only people he truly wanted to have vengeance on was Splinter and Leonardo.

Dreko wanted to kill Splinter because he didn’t take kindly to being defeated by the mutant rat at the Battle Nexus. While Ultimate Ninja wanted to hold the title of Earth's Greatest Warrior. A title that had previously belonged to the Shredder until he was defeated by Leonardo. As a result, he forcibly challenges Leo to a mortal dual. And much like Dreko, the Ultimate Ninja is also a sore loser about his defeat and attempts to gain victory dishonorably. So the more likely possibility is that Ultimate Dreko didn’t care where the other turtles were sent, just so long as they were out of the way and dealt with.

However the Same as it Never Was storyline has lead to various artwork,videos, and forum speculations, as well as fanfics that serve as aftermaths to the event. Fans have also done artwork and fics involving this plot line to demonstrate how it can translate with more current versions of the TMNT franchise. Even the last issue of the Turtles in Time Arc of the IDW comic can in a way be viewed as a play on this story.

While it is generally believed that this event is an alternate universe, there is also evidence in the 2k3 series itself to confirm that Same As It Never Was could have taken place and here is why.

The 2k3 incarnation there are two future verse stories. The first is of course Same as it Never Was, and the second is New York year 2105 which is shown in Fast Forward. Both of these contrasting futures have one thing in common, there is no specific timeline leading up to them.

With the Fast Forward story line, we know it’s 100 years in the future because they specifically say so. But Same as it Never was is more vague. Fans often believe that it’s set thirty years in the future because Mikey states that thirty years have passed, and that does seem like a plausible amount of time since we see older versions of April and Karai. However, what Mikey actually says is that Donnie has been missing for thirty years, not that it is specifically thirty years in the future itself.

We are also told some of the things that happened have happened for both futures. In Fast Forward it is revealed that April, Casey, and Donnie founded O’Neil Tech, a philanthropic tech company that helped make New York what it is. And Donnie is able to make various scientific breakthroughs and inventions, such as a new periodic table element called Donatellium for example.

Whereas in the Same as it Never Was story line, it is pointed out that Donnie vanished for unknown reasons thirty years prior to the episode. At some point the Turtles and Casey attempted to take on the Shredder and Casey killed as a result. And some point after that the lair is attacked by the Shredder and Splinter sacrifices himself so that his sons can escape. Following this Leo and Raph get into a huge fight and part ways.

If you really think about it, there are some moments that do strongly lead up to the the Same as it Never Was universe in the 2k3 series itself as well as its sequel story lines. Let’s start by looking at Fast Forward because there were some things about that incarnation that really caught my interest. First off, the Turtles in the mirage comics were shown living well into their hundreds during one span of the comic book. This can be taken as canon or non-canon by your way of seeing it. But all the same we can agree that the Turtles are able to live long lives. So wouldn’t it be possible for them to still be around by the year 2105. Perhaps...however there are also some hints that suggest that the foursome is no longer alive.

Such as for example, when Bishop sees they are in the future the first thing he says is “The Turtles...in this time? Impossible.”

Also on one episode title “the journal”, the Turtles come across the journal that April and Casey had written about their adventures with the Turtles. When they want to read it so they could learn what sort of things they did to help make that future what it was, Splinter advises against it. To which Cody agrees by stating that he does want to talk to them about the events that happen in the book. but if he lets them read it, their lives could be ruined when they are finally able to return to their time.

Interestingly enough, Cody doesn’t stop Starlee from informing Donatello that he would also a become founder of O’Neil tech. What really struck me as odd is that Donnie’s involvement with O’Neil tech is treated like an “In-House secret”. If it was common knowledge that Donnie was a founder, wouldn’t there be some dedications to him as well as April and Casey. Or how about Dunn since he’s acting as CEO until Cody is of age. Wouldn’t he realize that if Donatello met an unfortunate demise as a teenager, that he possibly could be a linchpin to O’Neil techs existence.

Maybe...then again being a mutant perhaps Donnie’s identity was kept only to a select and trusted few. But yet if that was the case, wouldn’t there still be record of a third founder that Dunn would have access to, even if the identity of said founder is that of a silent partner? After all, Darius Dunn wants O’Neil tech and it’s fortune for himself. If there was a secret founder, wouldn’t there be some entitlement to that founder and/or his descendants. And even if ‘The Jones family will’ didn’t say anything of the sort, Dunn could still have some reason to worry about the existence of another founder. This leaves only one other possibility, Donatello was labeled a founder post-mortem.

Some of the moments in Same as it Never Was that caught my interest is the moment where April sees Donnie for the first time in years. The first thing she says is “Master Splinter always said you would return someday.” Another is the moment where Raph and Leo encounter Donatello, because they both are very surprised and glad to see him. Whereas Mikey is quick to angrily accuse Donnie of abandoning them years ago. The final moment that caught my interest is that when Utrom Shredder is about to kill Donnie he says “Thirty years, and this is all you’ve got?!”.

Some of the things that suggest the possibility of Same as it Never will possibly take place, is the first episode of Back to the Sewers. In that episode the Turtles are returning home from the future, but are intercepted by Viral and taken to various points in history. One of the times she sends them is to a point that is close to their time, but still set some time in the future. Here they witness a street war between Utrom Shredder, Tengu Shredder, and a yet to be revealed version of the Shredder that would soon be dubbed the Cyber Shredder. The Turtles are then confronted by a man that is later introduced as Master Khan who claims that he destroyed the Turtles himself.

And during Good Genes, there is also point where Mikey is treating Donnie’s situation as though he is sick in bed with a cold which hints that he is in denial about what is happening to his brother.

In most incarnations of the Turtles, Donatello holds the strongest loyalty to his brothers and family. So having him leave without explanation would certainly be something that would be out of character. And even of he did have to leave without probable cause, he would still try to leave something or make certain his brothers were given a letter or a note or something as an explanation as to why he had to disappear.

And interestingly enough there is no actual aftermath or revisit to the Real World arc episodes. Instead the Turtles just arrive back at the lair to find Casey saying he had been looking for them for the past ten minutes to which the turtles respond that it’s good to be home. Now while it’s evident they would fill in their each other and their companions about what occurred. For Raph and Mikey, their experiences would be just that...experiences. Events that won’t leave a large amount of impact.
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Old 05-13-2018, 08:36 PM   #2
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However for Donnie, he actually saw his brothers die. Yes, these were not his brothers as he knows them...but they were still his brothers or at least some aspect of them. He is even in shock over the deaths of his brothers before he is finally reunited with them. The deaths of loved ones whether real or dream is not an experience he can just walk away from unscathed, it is one that would leave some negative impact in some form or another sometime later.

Some of the fanfics I have read that act as an aftermath often depict Donnie having trouble sleeping at night because he would be continuously haunted by nightmares about that future-verse. In others Donnie is obsessively updating the lair security and building spare mechanical eyes and limbs for his brothers to use as a parting gift should his disappearance be inevitable. However unlike these fics, I don’t think Donnie would have honestly told his brothers everything he experienced. It’s my personal belief that he would have just said that the world he was sent to was a future version of New York where the Shredder has taken over and that they were able to defeat him but at great cost, and only leave it at that. At least as far as his brothers are concerned, Splinter however may not be quite so easy to appease. He is more likely to get Donatello to explain the full account of what happened to him alone. Afterwards he wouldn’t help his son forget that event, but he would advise techniques and meditations would help him quell the fears and anxieties that event may cause.


This scenario is purely fan speculation, but this is how I can see the events of Same as it Never Was could be tied to the actual TMNT 2k3 timeline.

Following everyone's return to the lair, Casey tells the Turtles and Splinter he was looking for them for ten minutes. April appears a few minutes later with some concern for her friends and confusion over what happened to them. The Turtles and Splinter fill in April and Casey about the attack, and then each of them go into an account of what transpired for each of them. Donnie would be quiet during the whole exchange. When he’s called upon, Donnie explains that the world he was sent to was a future where the Shredder has taken over and he managed to organize a strike party to defeat him, which succeeded but at great cost. Leonardo senses his brother isn’t telling the full truth and asks if that was all that happened. Donnie insists that was all there was to tell and leaves it at that. Splinter advises that perhaps some things are better left unsaid.

Later Splinter takes note that Donatello is appearing rather anxious and becomes rather obsessive with the lair security. He confronts his son about his behavior and asks what was really bothering him. Donnie tries to brush it off but finds he can’t reluctantly he tells his father the full account of the world he was sent to. Splinter begins to get a bigger grasp of what happened and why Donnie had been so reluctant tell his brothers about this. He then advises Donnie not to dwell on the possibility of that future, but to live in the moment and rejoice in where his family is now. Donnie tries to follow his father's advice but is still tormented by his thoughts of that future. Noting his son's distress, Splinter instructs Donatello in private meditation sessions to help him become less tormented by that experience. Everything plays out as normal following the final battle against Utrom Shredder and the rest of the series.

Although defeated at the end of the series, Cyber Shredder isn’t destroyed. Instead he lays low and regains his strength and power leaving the Turtles and their companions to assume he is gone for good.

While on his downtime he develops a means to free Utrom Shredder and resurrect Tengu Shredder so they can use their combined might to take down the Turtles. Together they devise a plan to create a trap for the Turtle Brothers. When the trap is laid, Khan lures the Turtles into it and assumes that the Turtles have been destroyed once it is set off. Unbeknownst to him, Leo, Raph, and Mikey manage to break free from the trap thanks to Donnie’s ingenuity. But, Donnie himself is unable to get out in time.

The Turtles, their friends and allies all look for him around the trap but don’t find him. After at least a couple weeks of searching, everyone comes to the sad truth that Donnie didn’t make it out of the trap alive. Everyone except Mikey who refuses to accept their brother is dead and doggedly feels like they should keep searching. Leo and Raph have conflicting views about dealing with their youngest brother. Raph wants to lay things down straight and just flat out get Mikey to realize Donnie is gone and he is not coming back, while Leo wants Mikey to accept their brothers loss in his own way. Splinter, however, states they should keep quiet because believing their brother is alive is giving Mikey comfort and they have no right to take that away from him. He also cryptically starts saying that Donatello will return to them one day.

In the midst of this, Leo and Raph’s attitude towards one another is beginning to sour but they still try to deal with life as usual even though it's not the same without the four of them. April begins the groundwork for starting O’Neil tech. She tells the Turtles and Splinter that Donatello should also be given a role as one of the founders since a lot of the pursuits followed by the company were because of him. Mikey gets upset and demands everyone quit talking about Donnie like he’s dead before he storms off. Splinter tells April to forgive Michelangelo for his behavior he still has not accepted that his brother is gone. But if Donatello could be there with them right then, he would certainly say he was honored to be a founder of April’s company.

While the Turtles are supposedly dead the three Shredders fight one another for control of the world. As the battles wage the Turtles remain in hiding. Mikey is still sulky due to Donnie being gone, through everyday he seemingly becomes less hopeful of Donnie’s survival. April gives birth to her first child, a son. O’Neil tech is also a success.

Eventually Utrom Shredder comes out as the victor of the wars between the three Shredders. Even though he has assumed power, Utrom Shredder is heavily damaged by the battles against the other two Shredders and needs to recover. Knowing this is their only chance the three Turtles, Casey, and Karai (who has become an ally of the Turtles) attempt a tactical strike against the Shredder to defeat him and the Foot Clan for good. Utrom Shredder is surprised to see the Turtles alive but still acts confident in his victory. At one point he gloats that he assumes their missing brother must be with their rat father.

Mikey angrily barks that Donatello abandoned them a long time ago. Shredder just laughs and says that even if that was the case, he would inevitably be hunted down and share their fate. The Turtles try to take on the Shredder, but he proves too difficult Casey is killed in the battle. The Turtles all report what happened to a distraught April. Leo then points out that it seems the Shredder doesn’t know Donnie is dead and that is something they can use to their advantage. Mikey snaps and says that they don’t know if Donnie was dead either, they just gave up on looking for him. Leo tries to reason with his younger brother and said as long as the Shredder assumes Donnie could be alive, he would see him as a threat and he will expend his forces to find him. Mikey refuses to see reason and yells that he would only believe their brother was gone when he can see his body for himself.
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Old 05-13-2018, 08:36 PM   #3
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As time passes the Shredder begins to gain more power, humans are killed or forced to cower in fear at the might of the Foot Clan. April is forced to close the O’Neil tech building to assist in the resistance. A foot clan strike team eventually finds the Turtles lair and attacks, Splinter sacrifices himself so his sons can escape. The already strained relationship between Leo and Raph finally snaps with Raph accusing Leo of abandoning Splinter. Leo insists that they had no choice but to leave Splinter behind. Raph then shouts “Just like they didn’t have a choice in leaving Donnie behind!” This gets Leo riled up and the two brothers fight. In the battle, Raph loses his left eye, Raph damages both of Leo’s eyes, and Mikey’s arm is severed when he tries to step between them. The three brothers go their separate ways, but Mikey is able to keep in touch with them.

April’s children grow up and get married and she becomes a grandmother. Humanity continues to suffer at the hands of the Shredder. The Turtles as individuals take out the Shredder’s forces where they can, but their efforts are still not enough. However without actual proof that Donatello is alive or dead, the Shredder knows that the missing Turtle would be seen as a beacon of hope for his brothers if he reunites with them. So he does keep an alert out for someone matching Donatello’s description. Thirty years after Donnie’s death, a sixteen-year old version of Donatello appears in the future New York and is nearly arrested by the Foot Clan. He is found by Mikey who has become embittered over the years since his brother's disappearance and demands to know why he abandoned them years ago. When Donnie has no answer to his questions, Mikey sighs and tells him that it isn’t safe to be out in the open. He takes Donnie to Splinter’s grave and fills Donnie in on how Splinter died. Donnie is naturally upset that his father is dead and tells Mikey they need to get their family back together and make one last strike against the Shredder. Mikey takes Donnie to April and her resistance group. Donnie is surprised to see that Karai and Bishop are now allies. Leo and Raph are summoned and arrive, but when they see each other, old wounds are reopened and the two start to attack one another until Don reveals himself to them. They are surprised and glad to see him but reluctant to take on the Shredder since the last time they did so they failed and lost Casey as a result. But ultimately agree the Shredder needed to be stopped one way or another.

In the meantime, Khan reports to the Shredder and tells him that Donatello has been spotted in the city. Shredder knows this means that his enemies would attack soon and tells Khan to prepare for it, but he wants to destroy Donatello himself.

The turtles attack the Shredders strong hold, with April, Karai, Bishop, and Stockman. Donnie is wearing a modified exosuit to help with taking on the Shredder’s Utrom tech-armor. During the battle Stockman is destroyed, and Karai also is killed but not before the Shredder denounces her as a pawn who has long since lost any use. Khan is destroyed by April to avenge Casey. Leo, Raph, and Mikey are unfortunately overpowered and killed by the forces of the Foot Clan. Shredder slowly and painfully begins to crush Donnie’s exosuit. As he’s killing his prey he gloats that he expected more from him after thirty years and he should spend his final moments looking upon those he has failed. Donnie however states that he only needed to get in close before he presses a button that causes a chain to shoot out and wrap around Utrom Shredder's armor so that Donnie’s exosuit is pulling him into a big hug. The exosuit then self destructs and takes Shredder with it.

Despite the fact the battle is over, Donnie feels no sense of victory over what happened. April tells Donnie tells him he gave back a future to everyone else. As Donnie is summoned to back to his family, April tells him to believe there is always hope. She reports the death of the Shredder to the resistance and everyone rejoices at finally being free of the Shredders tyranny. O’Neil tech is reopened and helps rebuilding and restoring the city into the world the Turtles would discover in the year 2105. April passes on peacefully in her sleep, her eldest grandson is made the new CEO of O’Neil Tech and marries the sister of Darius Dunn. Darius plays the part of the loyal friend and worms his way to a position to be COO of O’Neil Tech. Cody Jones is born and often left in the care of Sirling while his parents are promoting and seeing to O’Neil Tech. Dunn arranges an accident for his Sister and his Brother in Law, he then takes an acting role as CEO all the while grooming and manipulating his nephew until he is of age, with the intent of eliminating him once he no longer served a purpose. Cody comes across his great grandparents journal and reads about the Turtles and becomes fascinated by them. Dunn chides his nephew about his obsession with the past. While looking through some of Donatello’s old blueprints he finds one for the time window and decides to build it so he can look back on the past and accidentally brings the Turtles and Splinter forward in time.
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Old 05-14-2018, 05:09 AM   #4
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Word of advice, nobody is going to read your multi-post essay. If you can't get your point across in 500 words or less, don't bother writing over 4000.

Now try again, one post, less than 15 lines and less than 500 words. Trust me, it's much more appropriate for a forum post.
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Turtles is basically the red-headed stepchild of Nick.
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Old 05-14-2018, 07:33 AM   #5
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The original series has a simailar question.

Do the "red sky seasons" occur within the same timeline as "Once Upon a Time Machine"?
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Because of continuity and timeline errors, I've given up writing fanfiction based on the 1987-1996 animated television series. Instead, I'm trying to reboot the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles story, something many other fanfiction writers alredy do:

Hopefully, stories will later appear at

http://www.fanfiction.net/u/968367/O...NT-Cartoon-Fan
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:14 AM   #6
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Word of advice, nobody is going to read your multi-post essay. If you can't get your point across in 500 words or less, don't bother writing over 4000.

Now try again, one post, less than 15 lines and less than 500 words. Trust me, it's much more appropriate for a forum post.
Yeah, I am a little curious what the actual question is. But pretty much ever since the twitter era began, I just don't have it in me to read books any more.
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Old 05-14-2018, 01:27 PM   #7
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Yeah, I am a little curious what the actual question is. But pretty much ever since the twitter era began, I just don't have it in me to read books any more.
It's not even that people have short attention spans, it's just that it needs to be concised for discussion. If all posts pushed the character limit like this, it would be impossble to even have a discussion. This forum would turn into a dense wall of text that would take hours to backtrack through, just to get what's going on. victory_angel's blocks text takes up 9 pages combined in Microsoft Word, when formatted to university assignment standards. Who's honestly going to read that much for argument about the timeline of a children's cartoon?

By all means, write an essay if you want but don't post it here directly. Here you need to keep it short, maybe add a link to it if you don't think brevity does the argument justice.
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Old 05-14-2018, 10:25 PM   #8
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This all kind of boils down to what type of time travel does the universe use. Is everything predetermined for Fast Forward to happen or can it be altered and changed depending on the actions in the present? Or, can timelines diverge and split?

Truthfully, with the "Real World" episodes, I saw potential for aftermath in both Donnie's and Mikey's. I think people tend to dismiss Mikey's because, well, he's in a world filled with superheroes which seems to be his dream. However, within that verse, he had to kill a version of his father. Regardless of if he delivered the killing blow himself, it was still done. Donnie's world was much more "in your face" trauma. Honestly, both Donnie and Mikey should have had some reaction to those worlds but the series never really followed up on those. I remember thinking that it's interesting that it was the "softer" turtles that were sent to the crueler worlds and that there should have been some reference to it.
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:40 PM   #9
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This all kind of boils down to what type of time travel does the universe use. Is everything predetermined for Fast Forward to happen or can it be altered and changed depending on the actions in the present? Or, can timelines diverge and split?
The good thing about futures is that is never set in stone. It’s always hypothetical. As Donnie also pointed out during the Journal they could make many different futures depending on the choices they make. And as Splinter responds, that in creating that future they would make certain mistakes and if they read the journal they would make different mistakes that would effect the existance of that future.

Much of the Turtles universe does deal with choices and conciquences. And even the choices made with the best of intentions are met with serious consequences at one point or another.

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Truthfully, with the "Real World" episodes, I saw potential for aftermath in both Donnie's and Mikey's. I think people tend to dismiss Mikey's because, well, he's in a world filled with superheroes which seems to be his dream. However, within that verse, he had to kill a version of his father. Regardless of if he delivered the killing blow himself, it was still done. Donnie's world was much more "in your face" trauma. Honestly, both Donnie and Mikey should have had some reaction to those worlds but the series never really followed up on those. I remember thinking that it's interesting that it was the "softer" turtles that were sent to the crueler worlds and that there should have been some reference to it.
There is some truth there. Mikey did kill orchestrate Sliver’s death. That universe felt more like an alternate reality or a “What if...” scenario rather then an actual world. Kinda the plot line in the IDW where the Turtles are raised by the Shredder instead of Splinter. In this case its “What if Splinter was loyal to the Shredder or was evil?” After all not all versions of Splinter are good, some he is a wise teacher, others he is a strict but kind hearted parent. And yes even the original version of Splinter was selfish and raised the Turtles as his agents of vengeance.

The big difference is that there was an aspect of Mikey created for that universe. So Mikey himself was more or less an observer of an alternate reality. Would Mikey still be subconciously effected? Yes. I think witnessing an evil version of his father would at the very least give him a better appreciation for Splinter.

With Donnie’s future, that is a future that could happen if he was taken out of the equation. Donnie may not be the most important Turtle in the group. But his role in the group does cause him to effect the team the most with his absence.

He ballences out the team and acts as a mediation between Leo and Raph with their spats. And when he can’t serve as a mediator he comforts and commiserates with Mikey over their older brothers actions. Raph and Leo would have killed each other long ago if Donnie wasn’t there.

He also shares fears with Leo in that his fear is failure. But Leo’s fear is failure in general. Donnie’s fear is failing or being unable to protect those he deems as friends and family.

And his vanishing is kept deliberately vague in the Same as it Never Was story. While Donnie’s character isn’t well developed, we do know him well enough to know he would never just up and leave for no reason. And even if he was taken or forced to leave his family, he would still try to find someway to reach his brothers and let them know.

If he had left without any explanation or contact, then he would have to explain himself to the buisness end of Leo and Raph’s weapons on sight. Instead the reaction is Raph and Leo are surprised and glad to have him back. So that gives only one plausiblity...Donatello is dead in that future. And they either didn’t tell Mikey that Donnie is gone because they knew he wouldn’t react well to it, or as I had suggested with the way he was coping with Donnie when he is a monster. Mikey is just in denial over his kind-hearted, genius older brother being gone and would rather believe Donnie abandoned them rather then the actual truth.
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