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Old 06-10-2018, 10:22 AM   #61
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I'm not denying it didn't happen, I'm well aware with how the internet is, just that it may be overblown. The internet the way it is is a necessary evil and people need to learn that. This same anonymity that grants trolls a voice is the same formula that has made the internet become the awesome thing that it is. If you aren't fit for the internet then that's fine but don't get shade the sun because it can cause cancer if you don't know how to deal with it yourself. But this is a whole different argument than Star Wars and has nothing to do with it, which why it's just propaganda to blame fans for their mistakes in making bad movies. The discussion of internet etiquette is whole different thing, it has nothing to do with fandom, and yes any fandom is toxic but not in the way this is being spun to make Disney Star Wars somehow a victim.

Response to TFA was totally positive, I got so much hate and called so many names for even daring to speak out against Episode 7. I'd say 95% loved it, we who disliked it were a small minority and we took a lot of crap for it. What about the abuse I got? Ironically the people defending the acress of Rose are the same people who took shots at me for disagreeing with them in the first place.


But sine no one is going to budge on this I'll ask a different question that i brought up already:

How can Lucasfilm change Star Wars if Kathleen leaves? Can they get you back on board?


I have to admit that I thought I was done with the franchise, it was no longer for me. But I realize I still like the universe a lot. I feel a lot of damage has been done to the saga with the Sequel Trilogy but maybe they can keep it fresh by doing something totally different set many years before or after? Maybe not releasing so many movies? I don't know, I can't think of any idea that really excites me even if different but I keep reading Star Wars news from time to time so obviously I'm not ready to give up on it either.

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Old 06-10-2018, 11:23 AM   #62
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what I find interesting is the people who claim to have followed tran for a while.
what has she done before star wars that was even noteable? very few people even know who she is OUTSIDE star wars.


For me, first they'd have to re instate legends. they'd have to bring the old authors back and can these new cheap versions.

They'd have to TOTALLY trash anything related to 7 8 and 9 from history. gone. the kathleen kennedy saga is erased.

They'd have to REDO 7 8 and 9. make it animated if you have to. show the fans that you know you screwed up. made a bad judgment and will never do that again. and even that won't bring some back. the bad taste will always be there.
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Old 06-10-2018, 11:24 AM   #63
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This isn't representative of my experience with the Star Wars fandom.
Maybe you are just interacting with the ****** people?
Or maybe there is another explanation?

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The fandom has no one to blame but themselves for that assessment.
If they're not going to police their own, then this is what happens.
And what's worse, it turns into a slippery slope.
Verbal abuse online can all too easily turn into abuse offline.

And that's when we find ourselves with threads in the Current Events section.
Fandom is not a monolithic organism who have some kind of supreme commander to order them around.
I am not really sure what this logic should work - how fandom should police itself? You are talking about thousands people all across the world.
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Old 06-10-2018, 12:16 PM   #64
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Maybe you are just interacting with the ****** people?
Or maybe there is another explanation?

.
maybe if they are getting this same reaction all the time, maybe it's them....

more theory.

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Old 06-11-2018, 08:20 AM   #65
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Interesting article from one of the trades:

Toxic Fandom Is Killing 'Star Wars'
6:30 AM PDT 6/11/2018 by Marc Bernardin

Racist harassment of 'Last Jedi' star Kelly Marie Tran and the 'Solo' backlash: Lucasfilm’s problem isn’t the movies, it’s trolls who want only the nostalgia of their youth, like "old Luke Skywalker hiding on an island from everything new," writes columnist Marc Bernardin.

Fandom has always been an us versus them proposition. In the early days, it was because you loved something that the world at large found silly, be it comic books or Doctor Who. It was you, and those who felt like you, against everyone else. Star Wars redefined fandom because it built a bigger tent than had ever existed before. Suddenly, the "everyone else" also loved Star Wars. Your mom knew what The Force was. Mark Hamill was on The Tonight Show. There was Yoda underwear. It was the first real “fan” thing that exploded into a phenomenon. But fandom always needs a “them.”

Star Wars is in an interesting place right now. The most recent film, Solo: A Star Wars Story, has been drastically underperforming at the box office. After two weeks in release, it had pulled in a mere $271 million worldwide. Analysts believe Disney will lose $50 million or more on the film, and Solo comes on the heels of Star Wars: The Last Jedi, which-despite making $1.3 billion worldwide—proved itself an incredibly divisive film. While critics loved it (judging by the 91 percent score on Rotten Tomatoes), fans were split.

Some loved the bold liberties of writer-director Rian Johnson. They understood that there was room under that big tent for characters like Vice Admiral Holdo (Laura Dern) and Rose Tico (Kelly Marie Tran), women placed—alongside Carrie Fisher’s Leia and Ridley’s Rey—at the center of the Star Wars drama.

But others hated it. Hated everything it stood for. Hated what they saw as a social justice warrior remix of the Star Wars they grew up with. And they hated Tran’s Rose most of all because they decided that she was the avatar for all that was wrong with the franchise. Those fans — a minority but a loud one — found their “them” in the very thing they used to love.

Those who chose this particular vein of the Dark Side, emboldened by the faceless intoxication of the internet, went hard on Tran. Racist invective, misogyny, rape and death threats, all hurled at her constantly, unrelentingly, transforming what had been a Cinderella story — The Last Jedi was Tran’s first major film —into a modern-day nightmare. On June 4, she all but quit social media, stripping everything from her Instagram save for a profile picture and a bio that says “Afraid, but still doing it anyway.”

(It shouldn’t go unnoticed that when this stripe of fan decides they don’t like a new take on an old favorite, they level their hate on the woman of color. Leslie Jones bore the brunt of the backlash to the 2016 reboot of Ghostbusters and the racist, sexually violent tweets she got also caused her to withdraw from social media to find her balance.)

All of this begs the question: What exactly do Star Wars fans want? For so long, all they were asking for was more. It was 16 years between Return of the Jedi and The Phantom Menace, and then 10 years between Revenge of the Sith and The Force Awakens. Just getting Star Wars on the big screen was enough … at first. But then fans wheeled on the prequels: too much Jar Jar, too convoluted. (The vitriol was strong enough to chase Lucas away from directing and perhaps from Star Wars altogether.)

When J.J. Abrams signed on for The Force Awakens and built his narrative around a young woman with The Force and her black friend, it triggered the anti-SJW brigades. (Never mind it also gave them Han Solo, Chewbacca, Leia, and a pair of familiar droids.) The #BoycottEpisodeVII hashtag spread, targeting Ridley and John Boyega, though it probably had more headlines than effect, as the film topped $2 billion worldwide.

But if The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi were too progressive for some fans, why didn’t they comfort themselves in the warm blanket of Solo, co-written by Star Wars standard bearer Lawrence Kasdan and directed by Lucas’ Willow collaborator Ron Howard? It should’ve been everything they wanted in the prequels they didn’t get, without the “too many ladies and people of color” issues they claimed hurt the new films. But judging by the gross, they didn’t want Solo either.

What is Star Wars fandom against? Turns out, the answer: itself. Or, rather, the realization that Star Wars is and always has been for children, and they aren’t children any more. Star Wars fans — I count myself among them — look to the original trilogy as an anchor of youth. They want anything Star Wars to make them feel the way they did when they saw “a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away …” roll across the screen 40 years ago.

No diehard fan wants to imagine himself as old Luke Skywalker, hiding on an island from everything new, anything that might shake his steadfast belief in how the world is supposed to be. But if you saw the original Star Wars in the theater, that’s who you are, unless you find a way to open yourself to heroes designed to hook a new generation while still resonating with yours. Those who haven’t are lashing out at everything that reminds them that they’re no longer young Luke, staring off into the horizon of a future still dawning, like twin suns.

They are forgetting the very things that spoke to them about Star Wars in the first place—and the warnings of a little green puppet about the perils of anger.

Marc Bernardin is a former THR editor and a comic book and television writer whose credits include Hulu's upcoming Castle Rock. He also co-hosts the Fatman on Batman podcast with Kevin Smith.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/am...mpression=true
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Old 06-11-2018, 08:39 AM   #66
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Surely this is just another one of those "FAKE" fan writers from the "FAKE" geek blogs that we've been hearing so much about, and as such can't be trusted.

I mean, what even are this person's credentials.
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Old 06-11-2018, 08:53 AM   #67
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If it's only trolls who only want the nostalgia of their youth, then how come the force awakens hasn't aged well in the publics mind? that was basically one big episode 4 call back, just like everything lucasfilm has done. unless they want to remind us that they are trying to 'kill the past'.

There is also an alternate version of that article that started it all, titled 'star wars has a toxic white male fan problem.'

The toxicity isn't coming from the fans....it's coming from lucasfilm itself. all their employees are blaming fans left and right..in what was a relatively happy fan base before the dark times. Don't like the force awakens? you are afraid of powerful women, you basement dwelling white man babies. they actually say stuff like this direct from JJ himself. can you imagine the crap storm if any other race was placed in that statement?

and people wonder why fans are angry at this point. people of all races and genders and walks of life are finally seeing what lucasfilm is trying to do, and they've had enough. you are basically taking away something that an entire generation of people enjoyed the way it was....and turning it into something it's not.

yeah, people are not going to be happy.
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Old 06-11-2018, 10:21 AM   #68
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That article is the perfect example of FAKE mainstream geek culture blog I constantly mention. It tries to create a narrative to fit their personal opinions without actually understanding geek culture.

It's still trying to continue the narrative that it's not the franchise's fault, it's the fans fault. And to justify this they throw in a bunch of excuses in that very article and see what fits, anything from "it's for kids" and even "you are afraid of change" and "you hate women/minority" for good measure and no one dares to challenge your views.

It's just for kids? Yeah, I know, I love Jar Jar and the Ewoks and don't mind that the story is basically good vs evil. Yeah there can be more serious takes but a lighter story is no problem for me.

I'm afraid of change? It's the exact opposite, I"m tired that these movies are all pandering to the OT when I want to see NEW stories. I genuinely got super excited during TLJ with the whole "Let the Past Die", I thought they would fix their mistakes, Rey joining Kylo and forming this new alliance of no Jedi or Sith seemed something new and interesting. Instead by the end of the movie we were back to Empire V Jedi.

You don't like Women/Minorities? I love women, Admiral Holdo (and as a Jurassic Park fan you know I love Laura Dern) and Rose are horrible characters, they suck. I only know their names because I'm copying and pasting. I love Rey as an idea, it's too bad she's being written as a Mary Sue who already knows everything and is boring. Finn is a great addition, too bad he hasn't done any progress since The Force Awakening since he even had to re-learn the lessons and they even took away his love interest because a black man can't be with a white woman. Who is the racist now?


And whose writing these articles? The same people who bashed the prequels and did worse things to the fandom since then, who is the one bringing toxicity to the franchise? You like the film? NO PROBLEM but don't tell others they're wrong. You don't see me telling people they're wrong for not liking Godzilla 1998.
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Old 06-11-2018, 10:37 AM   #69
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Well that one in particular was written by Marc Bernardin

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...a former THR editor and a comic book and television writer whose credits include Hulu's upcoming Castle Rock. He also co-hosts the Fatman on Batman podcast with Kevin Smith
I guess there's no greater fake geek content generator than the guy who co-hosts a podcast with Kevin Smith.
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just ignore what you don't like rather than obsessing over it and move on with your life.
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Old 06-11-2018, 10:45 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by NinjaPug View Post
Interesting article from one of the trades:

Toxic Fandom Is Killing 'Star Wars'
6:30 AM PDT 6/11/2018 by Marc Bernardin

Racist harassment of 'Last Jedi' star Kelly Marie Tran and the 'Solo' backlash: Lucasfilm’s problem isn’t the movies, it’s trolls who want only the nostalgia of their youth, like "old Luke Skywalker hiding on an island from everything new," writes columnist Marc Bernardin.

Fandom has always been an us versus them proposition. In the early days, it was because you loved something that the world at large found silly, be it comic books or Doctor Who. It was you, and those who felt like you, against everyone else. Star Wars redefined fandom because it built a bigger tent than had ever existed before. Suddenly, the "everyone else" also loved Star Wars. Your mom knew what The Force was. Mark Hamill was on The Tonight Show. There was Yoda underwear. It was the first real “fan” thing that exploded into a phenomenon. But fandom always needs a “them.”

Star Wars is in an interesting place right now. The most recent film, Solo: A Star Wars Story, has been drastically underperforming at the box office. After two weeks in release, it had pulled in a mere $271 million worldwide. Analysts believe Disney will lose $50 million or more on the film, and Solo comes on the heels of Star Wars: The Last Jedi, which-despite making $1.3 billion worldwide—proved itself an incredibly divisive film. While critics loved it (judging by the 91 percent score on Rotten Tomatoes), fans were split.

Some loved the bold liberties of writer-director Rian Johnson. They understood that there was room under that big tent for characters like Vice Admiral Holdo (Laura Dern) and Rose Tico (Kelly Marie Tran), women placed—alongside Carrie Fisher’s Leia and Ridley’s Rey—at the center of the Star Wars drama.

But others hated it. Hated everything it stood for. Hated what they saw as a social justice warrior remix of the Star Wars they grew up with. And they hated Tran’s Rose most of all because they decided that she was the avatar for all that was wrong with the franchise. Those fans — a minority but a loud one — found their “them” in the very thing they used to love.

Those who chose this particular vein of the Dark Side, emboldened by the faceless intoxication of the internet, went hard on Tran. Racist invective, misogyny, rape and death threats, all hurled at her constantly, unrelentingly, transforming what had been a Cinderella story — The Last Jedi was Tran’s first major film —into a modern-day nightmare. On June 4, she all but quit social media, stripping everything from her Instagram save for a profile picture and a bio that says “Afraid, but still doing it anyway.”

(It shouldn’t go unnoticed that when this stripe of fan decides they don’t like a new take on an old favorite, they level their hate on the woman of color. Leslie Jones bore the brunt of the backlash to the 2016 reboot of Ghostbusters and the racist, sexually violent tweets she got also caused her to withdraw from social media to find her balance.)

All of this begs the question: What exactly do Star Wars fans want? For so long, all they were asking for was more. It was 16 years between Return of the Jedi and The Phantom Menace, and then 10 years between Revenge of the Sith and The Force Awakens. Just getting Star Wars on the big screen was enough … at first. But then fans wheeled on the prequels: too much Jar Jar, too convoluted. (The vitriol was strong enough to chase Lucas away from directing and perhaps from Star Wars altogether.)

When J.J. Abrams signed on for The Force Awakens and built his narrative around a young woman with The Force and her black friend, it triggered the anti-SJW brigades. (Never mind it also gave them Han Solo, Chewbacca, Leia, and a pair of familiar droids.) The #BoycottEpisodeVII hashtag spread, targeting Ridley and John Boyega, though it probably had more headlines than effect, as the film topped $2 billion worldwide.

But if The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi were too progressive for some fans, why didn’t they comfort themselves in the warm blanket of Solo, co-written by Star Wars standard bearer Lawrence Kasdan and directed by Lucas’ Willow collaborator Ron Howard? It should’ve been everything they wanted in the prequels they didn’t get, without the “too many ladies and people of color” issues they claimed hurt the new films. But judging by the gross, they didn’t want Solo either.

What is Star Wars fandom against? Turns out, the answer: itself. Or, rather, the realization that Star Wars is and always has been for children, and they aren’t children any more. Star Wars fans — I count myself among them — look to the original trilogy as an anchor of youth. They want anything Star Wars to make them feel the way they did when they saw “a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away …” roll across the screen 40 years ago.

No diehard fan wants to imagine himself as old Luke Skywalker, hiding on an island from everything new, anything that might shake his steadfast belief in how the world is supposed to be. But if you saw the original Star Wars in the theater, that’s who you are, unless you find a way to open yourself to heroes designed to hook a new generation while still resonating with yours. Those who haven’t are lashing out at everything that reminds them that they’re no longer young Luke, staring off into the horizon of a future still dawning, like twin suns.

They are forgetting the very things that spoke to them about Star Wars in the first place—and the warnings of a little green puppet about the perils of anger.

Marc Bernardin is a former THR editor and a comic book and television writer whose credits include Hulu's upcoming Castle Rock. He also co-hosts the Fatman on Batman podcast with Kevin Smith.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/am...mpression=true


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Old 06-11-2018, 10:47 AM   #71
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If I knew it had been written by Kevin Smith I wouldn't even have read the article as I already would've known it was trash. He's out of touch for the most part.

Liking nerdy things doesn't make you a "nerd" or knowing nerdy things doesn't make you a "better nerd". This is what's wrong with modern geek culture. Now I understand how goths felt like in the 80s and their culture went mainstream.
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Old 06-11-2018, 10:52 AM   #72
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Read it again, Kevin Smith is not the name on the byline.
But I do think it's really funny that you're trying to fake geek Kevin Smith.

It's like watching baby queers try to explain Stonewall to someone who threw a bottle at the riot.
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Old 06-11-2018, 10:54 AM   #73
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didn't that article start with scott mendleson?

then it got picked up and 'rewritten' by the 'main stream' 'geek' blogs.
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Old 06-11-2018, 11:01 AM   #74
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Sci-fi in general seems to be going off the rails this decade...

Doctor Who goes female, a lot of fans revolt while a lot of defenders circle the wagons and cry mysogny. Star Wars does the same, but with exceptionally more controversy. Even Star Trek, with the failed JJ Abrams cinematic series and Discovery...

My takeaway from this is that sci-fi franchises are being reinvented and rebooted to try to appeal to more liberal, female-friendly audiences... but that the stories being used to do this are failing.

Would everybody be this pissed off about Star Wars if Episode 7 hadn't been a New Hope Remix, and if Episode 8 hadn't spat in the face of the previous movie's plot threads while also making extremely controversial choices about Luke? Or if Rose's character arc was exceptionally poorly written? (That last moment with her potentially sacrificing the entire Rebellion to save one person... nobody can reasonably defend that choice.)

Would the "Old Guard" of Trek be pissed off if the Klingons hadn't been needlessly revamped, with the entire story squeezed in ten years before the Original Series? With idealogical choices that fly in the face of Star Trek's known ideals?

For a lot of fans (not all), the problem isn't the female face of the franchises; it's the poor writing and the seemingly soulless cashing in.
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Old 06-11-2018, 11:11 AM   #75
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Star Trek is an interesting one because it started out as progressive and inclusive by Design. The darker Edge to the Federation wasn't new to Discovery, we saw many hints of that in DS9.

Whereas NuTrek was more of an action movie than sci-fi, and I always got the feeling that was done because trek has this geeky history that Abrams was trying to separate it from.
And that's not even getting into the fact that the female uniforms of a military organization lacked rank insignias...

The folks I know who are the most die-hard whovians grudgingly admit that it is Canon for time Lords to regenerate as a different gender. They just don't like the doctor being female.

I think the issue here is that everybody isn't pissed off about all of these things, some fans are.

For instance, Rose's sacrifice at the end of the movie was dumb, but I think that was the point. That movie was all about deconstructing the Hail Mary play. How selfish behaving that way in a time of war is.
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just ignore what you don't like rather than obsessing over it and move on with your life.

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Old 06-11-2018, 11:17 AM   #76
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Read it again, Kevin Smith is not the name on the byline.
But I do think it's really funny that you're trying to fake geek Kevin Smith.

It's like watching baby queers try to explain Stonewall to someone who threw a bottle at the riot.
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If I knew it had been written by Kevin Smith I wouldn't even have read the article as I already would've known it was trash. He's out of touch for the most part.

Liking nerdy things doesn't make you a "nerd" or knowing nerdy things doesn't make you a "better nerd". This is what's wrong with modern geek culture. Now I understand how goths felt like in the 80s and their culture went mainstream.
"mainstream/fake" geeks can still like nerdy things but they don't understand it like say a fan of Good Charlotte likes Punk culture but doesn't understand it. That doesn't mean she's any less of a fan of Punk, but for her to lecture someone on what Punk is, is just not going to fly.

And just because you like the Ramones when they played in small venues doesn't mean your opinion is any better than the average person. The Punk Subculture is not defined by the opinions of casual fans or the first fans. That's my point.
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Old 06-11-2018, 11:38 AM   #77
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Star Trek is an interesting one because it started out as progressive and inclusive by Design. The darker Edge to the Federation wasn't new to Discovery, we saw many hints of that in DS9.

Whereas NuTrek was more of an action movie than sci-fi, and I always got the feeling that was done because trek has this geeky history that Abrams was trying to separate it from.
And that's not even getting into the fact that the female uniforms of a military organization lacked rank insignias...

The folks I know who are the most die-hard whovians grudgingly admit that it is Canon for time Lords to regenerate as a different gender. They just don't like the doctor being female.

I think the issue here is that everybody isn't pissed off about all of these things, some fans are.

For instance, Rose's sacrifice at the end of the movie was dumb, but I think that was the point. That movie was all about deconstructing the Hail Mary play. How selfish behaving that way in a time of war is.
The darker edge to the Federation in Deep Space 9 was not to the same extent or the same focus as Discovery, though. In DS9, it was to be actively fought against. In Discovery, it's the main characters and almost always shown to be the smart play.

And Time Lords/Ladies being able to regenerate across gender was only recently introduced, by Stephen Moffat. With a clear intent to be used for the Doctor a few years later... a Checkov's Gun, if you will.

I'm not arguing for or against any of these franchises' new directions at the moment; I'm simply trying to point out that the majority of the backlash I've personally experienced or read online is not sexist in nature. The sexist voices are heard loudest, though, because that's more newsworthy--and it also enables the current production teams to ignore their actual issues or deficiencies.
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Old 06-11-2018, 11:56 AM   #78
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which I wonder if this is the real heart of the issue.

the Actual new crop of millenial people coming into power not being able to take criticism on their work. and the older people in charge using that to their advantage to push controversy and fast advertising?
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Old 06-11-2018, 12:12 PM   #79
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The darker edge to the Federation in Deep Space 9 was not to the same extent or the same focus as Discovery, though. In DS9, it was to be actively fought against. In Discovery, it's the main characters and almost always shown to be the smart play.

And Time Lords/Ladies being able to regenerate across gender was only recently introduced, by Stephen Moffat. With a clear intent to be used for the Doctor a few years later... a Checkov's Gun, if you will.

I'm not arguing for or against any of these franchises' new directions at the moment; I'm simply trying to point out that the majority of the backlash I've personally experienced or read online is not sexist in nature. The sexist voices are heard loudest, though, because that's more newsworthy--and it also enables the current production teams to ignore their actual issues or deficiencies.
I haven't seen all of Discovery yet, because I couldn't be arsed to pay CBS for their programming, but now that it's done I might sign up for the free trial. That said, DS9 showed the moral quandary as moral quandary because the lead character was a man with ALL the scruples.
That doesn't seem to be the case with Discovery.

The BBC site seems to indicate that discussion of a female Doctor was something that was batted around as far back as Baker's time, but more recently was it given the g'head.

And I think it bears some consideration that the sexist voices are now heard the loudest not only because they make good click bait, but also because the people who've heard them the longest have the means by which to communicate with each other.
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So your wants and needs as a fan should outweigh everyone else's?
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There's no sense catering just to one demographic which is idiotic.
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just ignore what you don't like rather than obsessing over it and move on with your life.
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Old 06-11-2018, 12:47 PM   #80
BartAllen
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My tippy top most favorite sci fi character is Ellen Ripley. No one even approaches her level. The female characters that we're seeing in modern movies are ****ing trash. The modern female character are poorly conceived, poorly written caricatures. The problem isn't misogyny. The problem is BAD MOVIES. The fans are right to rebel.

The Last Jedi stank on ice and so did Solo (parts were alright).

I guess it's just easier to blame some boogeyman instead of taking responsibility for making bad decisions.

To be fair, there is a segment of the fandom that is disgustingly sexist. That segment is a small FRACTION OF A FRACTION of the overall audience. The majority of the people that dislike the Star Wars movies dislike them because they're bad. THEY'RE BAD!
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