The TMNT Mirage Continuity Timeline (complete?) - Page 11

Billbeaux · 01-01-2010, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

Hmmm..

I tried to add a whole bunch of new stories and I've apparently exceeded the character limit for the post.

What all were you planning on adding? I thought the timeline was already about as exhaustive as you could get (barring the few remaining Tales issues).

*DrSpengler* · 01-01-2010, 03:58 PM

Alright, I inserted the Bodycount miniseries and the second Savage Dragon crossover into the timeline.

Both were co-published by Mirage and helmed by Mirage staffers. Additionally, they were conceived and begun *before* Image Vol. 3. Radical's depowering in the second Savage Dragon crossover is even loosely reference in Tales #41.

So I figured they oughta be there.

I took the Professor Obligado stuff out of the gap in TMNT Vol. 4 #5 and stuck them in their own section post-Vol. 4. The story is self-contained and could easily take place after Vol. 4, so I figured they'd be better off where they wouldn't clutter up that already stuffed period.

Also did some "era" renaming to be a little more exciting and split up the "Living with April" era into Year One and Year Two so it wouldn't be such an imposting wall of text (and the recent seaparating of the two Christmases facilitated that division quite nicely).

Unfortunately, in order to fit these changes into the post, I had to delete my "thanks guys" paragraph. Don't think I'm ungrateful for all the help! Once I transplant the timeline to my site, the thank you will be restored, I promise.

When I do the transplant, I'll add in the Image Vol. 3 series with the proper notations involving canon. Aside from that, that only thing I can think of that needs to be added are the last five issues of Tales and I'll drop those in as they're published.

Looking over my two posts containing canon notations, they're horribly outdated and not very helpful, especially after Tristan and I remodeled the timeline to resolve a lot of those issues.

So I'm probably going to delete those posts after the transplant so as to prevent future confusion from people dropping by. I'll add updated notations to the timeline once I transplant it.

*DrSpengler* · 01-01-2010, 04:02 PM

Oh yeah, and I dropped "Sons of the Silent Age" back to be closer to "The River" since Raph's going through the after effects of that storyline.

Not sure why I pushed so far ahead in the first place, come to think of it. As was recommened a page or two back, it does work better closer to "The River", as it was written.

EDIT: And even though its pretty much Image-exclusive, I added the story "Galahad" to the Early Years era with a proper canon notation to accompany it.

*DrSpengler* · 01-01-2010, 07:22 PM

Added the obscure and elusive "Muscle and Faith" to the timeline.

Grouped it with a bunch of other Casey-sentric stories just to keep the theme running. No real strict indicator for its placement within the story, other than the Turtles living in the sewer lair.

*ToTheNines* · 01-04-2010, 07:51 AM

Ok, I've got some problems with Christmas stories here.

Tales Vol. 2 #53 - "Ghosts of Christmas Past" can't take place in the Return to New York era, since Raph says Shadow wants them to sing Christmas carols with her. So since she's at least 4 years old (possibly older) and they're in the city... I'd say this is anywhere from Volume 3, to Prelude to Volume 4, or even in Volume 4 itself.

The Raphael Christmas Carol short can't take place directly after Return to New York. RTNY parts 2 and 3 take place on Christmas day... I highly doubt the turtles had a cheery Christmas after that ass beating, and Raph wouldn't have been up on the roof tops knowing the Foot would be on full alert all over the city. I'd say this takes place later in the RTNY era, or at the end of another era that doesn't already have a Christmas issue.

Also, unless you're saying a whole year passes between "Alien Invaders", and "Cold, Cold Ice" they should be right next to eachother.

*DrSpengler* · 01-04-2010, 10:51 AM

Good observations.

I moved "Alien Invaders" and "Cold Cold Ice" next to one another (but after "Night of the Living Ginerbread since that one takes place on Halloween).

I wanted to keep "A Christmas Carol" and "Ghosts of Christmas Past" together since they segue into one another so well I almost can't believe it was a coincidence.

But where to place them IS an issue.

I stuck them at the end of the Mirage Volume 3 Era just to slot them somewhere harmless, though I'm sure that after looking at seasonal environments in some of the later issues from that period I could find a better place to stick it.

*ToTheNines* · 01-04-2010, 12:06 PM

That all works great.

Now I have a question. I was wondering where you placed "Loops" as far as Future Leo is concerned. You have young Leo right, and the other two don't really matter since they hardly remember but to you think his adventure is pre or post "Swan Song"?

*Cipher* · 01-04-2010, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

That all works great.

Now I have a question. I was wondering where you placed "Loops" as far as Future Leo is concerned. You have young Leo right, and the other two don't really matter since they hardly remember but to you think his adventure is pre or post "Swan Song"?

The ending of "Swan Song" where he climbs into the tree-hut is completely ambiguous. Could happen before or after "Loops," and there's no indication either way.

But "Loops" does have to take place after Complete Carnage is killed. Leo has his techno-sword in "Loops" (which he does not have when he kills Carnage) and says he vowed never to take another life.

*DrSpengler* · 01-04-2010, 08:53 PM

Okay, the big move has happened!

GO HERE FOR THE MIRAGE CONTINUITY TIMELINE

I have given it a color-coordinated facelift with notations galore and all that good stuff.

What I'd like to know now is what I can do to improve readability. Are there any other types of stories who should have their canon status highlighted by a color code? Are the notations at the bottom useful enough?

And, of course, please continue with observations and recommendations regarding timeline placement of stories. However, I only ask that you make all suggestions in this thread and not in my blog comments. I welcome all feedback, but discussions of this nature are easier to handle in a web forum than through blog comments.

Thanks to everyone who has been helping these past three years. There are still 5 more issues of Tales to be added as they're published and I'm sure more finagaling of what we already have.

*Andrew NDB* · 01-04-2010, 09:18 PM

Can I make one suggestion? I really wish you would include a symbol or something to indicate which story is a backup vs. which ones are "main" stories in a given issue.

*oldmanwinters* · 01-04-2010, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Can I make one suggestion? I really wish you would include a symbol or something to indicate which story is a backup vs. which ones are "main" stories in a given issue.

Oh, yeah, I'd really appreciate that. Makes it easier to keep everything straight in my memory.

*DrSpengler* · 01-05-2010, 08:36 AM

Good call, guys.

Added a yellow † to denote back-up strips, short comics and anthology episodes.

*ToTheNines* · 01-05-2010, 05:47 PM

Cool, I love it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

I wanted to keep "A Christmas Carol" and "Ghosts of Christmas Past" together since they segue into one another so well I almost can't believe it was a coincidence.

Actually, I don't think "A Christmas Carol" is the same Christmas as "Ghosts..."

I say this because of Shadow. While she could have been in the other room, or out with Casey... this story is the only one that was published pre-CAW that you have taking place post-CAW.

So I'd personally just put "Carol" at the end of the RTNY era.

*ToTheNines* · 01-06-2010, 03:12 PM

Excuse the double post, but:

I think you should flip "Unmentionables" before "Survivalists", due to the snow.

Also, if you ever feel the need to, I think it would be a good idea to place the future segements of Tales that mainly involve the past. Example: Future Raph at the end of "Day in the life", Future Don in "Tryptyche", and like I mentioned before, Future Leo from "Loops".

And finally, what exactly makes "This Mortal Shell" from #53 non-canon? I know it was done by those students from that art school, but it's a harmless story with Don bull sh*tting with April and then Raph busting up a robbery. Nothing contradictory at all, considering you have stuff like "The Purpose of Fear" on your list.

*DrSpengler* · 01-07-2010, 09:37 PM

Hmm...Somehow I neglected to include the story "Word Warriors" when I integrated all the non-contradictory stories from Shell Shock.

Did some research and apparently it was part of a larger comic called "Quest for Dream Lost", which sort of puts the weird events of the tale into context.

Regardless, it's an Eastman/Laird Joint and there's nothing in it that really puts it outside the Mirage universe, though I don't own a copy of Quest for Dreams Lost so I dunno if all the artifacts that the various indie comics characters recovered in the book were returned to the moving van they fell out of or not.

Kinda wonder if I should include their Miami Mice cameo in the timeline, now. That one was also penciled by Eastman and Laird (at least the Turtles were; the Miami Mice were done by Mike Bode and Cerebus was all Dave Sim). There's no explanation in that story as to how the Turtles got to the Miami Mice unvierse, outside of Cerebus making a passing comment about a "crossover spell", though it only seems to be affecting him and not the Turtles.

I'll hold off on that one for now.

*Cipher* · 01-08-2010, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

And finally, what exactly makes "This Mortal Shell" from #53 non-canon? I know it was done by those students from that art school, but it's a harmless story with Don bull sh*tting with April and then Raph busting up a robbery. Nothing contradictory at all, considering you have stuff like "The Purpose of Fear" on your list.

If it hasn't already been added, I second this question.

Volume 4 is crying out for a moment of character reaction anyway. If anything, it's a little piece that really adds to the Volume 4 (and post-Volume 4) situations.

*ToTheNines* · 01-08-2010, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

Kinda wonder if I should include their Miami Mice cameo in the timeline, now. That one was also penciled by Eastman and Laird (at least the Turtles were; the Miami Mice were done by Mike Bode and Cerebus was all Dave Sim). There's no explanation in that story as to how the Turtles got to the Miami Mice unvierse, outside of Cerebus making a passing comment about a "crossover spell", though it only seems to be affecting him and not the Turtles.

Nah, I think that was just a gag.

So what do you think about moving "A Christmas Carol" and "The Unmentionables"?

*DrSpengler* · 01-08-2010, 01:05 PM

In regards to "The Mortal Shell" in Tales #53, I didn't include it because Berger goes out of his way in the introduction to assure the reader that it is "non-canon". It was written from the getgo with the understanding that it was not to be a part of continuity, even if there's nothing contradictory within the story itself.

Stuff like Image Vol. 3 and much of the Vol. 1 "guest era" stuff were initially conceived as canon only to be retconned out after the fact. "The Mortal Shell" was never intended to be canon, hence its non-inclusion to the timeline.

As for "A Christmas Carol" and "Ghosts of Christmas Past", I'd still like to keep them together. The two stories compliment one-another very nicely and tell a pretty complete narrative once they segue into each other. "A Christmas Carol" doesn't necessarily *have* to be placed before "Ghosts of Christmas Past", but it works very well there. Just as "15 Years Later" doesn't *have* to be placed within TMNT #1, but works well with the narrative if it is. I'd like to keep them together, even if "A Christmas Carol" was written before the character of Shadow was conceived, as there's nothing in-story to contradict its placement there and it compliments the narrative of another short quite nicely.

And you're right about "The Unmentionables" needing to be moved. I wasn't sure if it should go backward to be closer to the Winter they were exiled, or forward to be closer to the Winter where they returned. I decided to move it backward for now. Also put "Casey Jones, Private Eye" before "The Unmentionables" instead of after it, since Casey's daydreaming about being a sleuth is better suited to forshadowing the events of "The Unmentionables".

*ToTheNines* · 01-08-2010, 01:23 PM

Cool, that all works.

But speaking of Beger making a point... I just got Tales 48 yesterday, and in the begining I'm pretty sure he said that they story takes place during Volume 2, was he just plain wrong on this one?

*DrSpengler* · 01-08-2010, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Cool, that all works.

But speaking of Beger making a point... I just got Tales 48 yesterday, and in the begining I'm pretty sure he said that they story takes place during Volume 2, was he just plain wrong on this one?

Looking over it, I don't think he was mistaken. I think me or Tristan might've overlooked the chronology note and stuck it in the "Exile to Northampton" era by mistake because Shadow isn't in the story. But it actually works just fine in the Volume 2 era.

Though I'm not sure how it can take place during Volume 2, since there's no real gap large enough for all the Turtles, Splinter and Casey to go and chill at the farm for however long and have time for that adventure. So I placed it shortly after the end of Volume 2, right before "Mined Games".

01-01-2010, 03:58 PM	#202
DrSpengler Foot Elite Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 4,830	Alright, I inserted the Bodycount miniseries and the second Savage Dragon crossover into the timeline. Both were co-published by Mirage and helmed by Mirage staffers. Additionally, they were conceived and begun before Image Vol. 3. Radical's depowering in the second Savage Dragon crossover is even loosely reference in Tales #41. So I figured they oughta be there. I took the Professor Obligado stuff out of the gap in TMNT Vol. 4 #5 and stuck them in their own section post-Vol. 4. The story is self-contained and could easily take place after Vol. 4, so I figured they'd be better off where they wouldn't clutter up that already stuffed period. Also did some "era" renaming to be a little more exciting and split up the "Living with April" era into Year One and Year Two so it wouldn't be such an imposting wall of text (and the recent seaparating of the two Christmases facilitated that division quite nicely). Unfortunately, in order to fit these changes into the post, I had to delete my "thanks guys" paragraph. Don't think I'm ungrateful for all the help! Once I transplant the timeline to my site, the thank you will be restored, I promise. When I do the transplant, I'll add in the Image Vol. 3 series with the proper notations involving canon. Aside from that, that only thing I can think of that needs to be added are the last five issues of Tales and I'll drop those in as they're published. Looking over my two posts containing canon notations, they're horribly outdated and not very helpful, especially after Tristan and I remodeled the timeline to resolve a lot of those issues. So I'm probably going to delete those posts after the transplant so as to prevent future confusion from people dropping by. I'll add updated notations to the timeline once I transplant it. Last edited by DrSpengler; 01-01-2010 at 04:04 PM.

01-04-2010, 07:51 AM	#205
ToTheNines [sic] Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 15,098	Ok, I've got some problems with Christmas stories here. Tales Vol. 2 #53 - "Ghosts of Christmas Past" can't take place in the Return to New York era, since Raph says Shadow wants them to sing Christmas carols with her. So since she's at least 4 years old (possibly older) and they're in the city... I'd say this is anywhere from Volume 3, to Prelude to Volume 4, or even in Volume 4 itself. The Raphael Christmas Carol short can't take place directly after Return to New York. RTNY parts 2 and 3 take place on Christmas day... I highly doubt the turtles had a cheery Christmas after that ass beating, and Raph wouldn't have been up on the roof tops knowing the Foot would be on full alert all over the city. I'd say this takes place later in the RTNY era, or at the end of another era that doesn't already have a Christmas issue. Also, unless you're saying a whole year passes between "Alien Invaders", and "Cold, Cold Ice" they should be right next to eachother. Last edited by ToTheNines; 01-04-2010 at 09:48 AM.

01-04-2010, 08:53 PM	#209
DrSpengler Foot Elite Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 4,830	Okay, the big move has happened! GO HERE FOR THE MIRAGE CONTINUITY TIMELINE I have given it a color-coordinated facelift with notations galore and all that good stuff. What I'd like to know now is what I can do to improve readability. Are there any other types of stories who should have their canon status highlighted by a color code? Are the notations at the bottom useful enough? And, of course, please continue with observations and recommendations regarding timeline placement of stories. However, I only ask that you make all suggestions in this thread and not in my blog comments. I welcome all feedback, but discussions of this nature are easier to handle in a web forum than through blog comments. Thanks to everyone who has been helping these past three years. There are still 5 more issues of Tales to be added as they're published and I'm sure more finagaling of what we already have. Last edited by DrSpengler; 01-05-2010 at 08:37 AM.

01-04-2010, 09:18 PM	#210
Andrew NDB Weed Whacker Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Auburn, WA Posts: 29,251	Can I make one suggestion? I really wish you would include a symbol or something to indicate which story is a backup vs. which ones are "main" stories in a given issue. __________________ [ ODYSSEY \| ORIGIN \| THE IMAGE/VOL. 3 CONCLUSION \| THE SHELLSHOCKED PODCAST \| ON FACEBOOK ]

01-06-2010, 03:12 PM	#214
ToTheNines [sic] Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 15,098	Excuse the double post, but: I think you should flip "Unmentionables" before "Survivalists", due to the snow. Also, if you ever feel the need to, I think it would be a good idea to place the future segements of Tales that mainly involve the past. Example: Future Raph at the end of "Day in the life", Future Don in "Tryptyche", and like I mentioned before, Future Leo from "Loops". And finally, what exactly makes "This Mortal Shell" from #53 non-canon? I know it was done by those students from that art school, but it's a harmless story with Don bull shtting with April and then Raph busting up a robbery. Nothing contradictory at all, considering you have stuff like "The Purpose of Fear" on your list. Last edited by ToTheNines; 01-06-2010 at 08:21 PM.*

01-01-2010, 04:02 PM	#203
DrSpengler Foot Elite Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 4,830	Oh yeah, and I dropped "Sons of the Silent Age" back to be closer to "The River" since Raph's going through the after effects of that storyline. Not sure why I pushed so far ahead in the first place, come to think of it. As was recommened a page or two back, it does work better closer to "The River", as it was written. EDIT: And even though its pretty much Image-exclusive, I added the story "Galahad" to the Early Years era with a proper canon notation to accompany it.

01-01-2010, 07:22 PM	#204
DrSpengler Foot Elite Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 4,830	Added the obscure and elusive "Muscle and Faith" to the timeline. Grouped it with a bunch of other Casey-sentric stories just to keep the theme running. No real strict indicator for its placement within the story, other than the Turtles living in the sewer lair.

01-04-2010, 10:51 AM	#206
DrSpengler Foot Elite Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 4,830	Good observations. I moved "Alien Invaders" and "Cold Cold Ice" next to one another (but after "Night of the Living Ginerbread since that one takes place on Halloween). I wanted to keep "A Christmas Carol" and "Ghosts of Christmas Past" together since they segue into one another so well I almost can't believe it was a coincidence. But where to place them IS an issue. I stuck them at the end of the Mirage Volume 3 Era just to slot them somewhere harmless, though I'm sure that after looking at seasonal environments in some of the later issues from that period I could find a better place to stick it.

01-04-2010, 12:06 PM	#207
ToTheNines [sic] Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 15,098	That all works great. Now I have a question. I was wondering where you placed "Loops" as far as Future Leo is concerned. You have young Leo right, and the other two don't really matter since they hardly remember but to you think his adventure is pre or post "Swan Song"?

01-05-2010, 08:36 AM	#212
DrSpengler Foot Elite Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 4,830	Good call, guys. Added a yellow † to denote back-up strips, short comics and anthology episodes.

01-07-2010, 09:37 PM	#215
DrSpengler Foot Elite Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 4,830	Hmm...Somehow I neglected to include the story "Word Warriors" when I integrated all the non-contradictory stories from Shell Shock. Did some research and apparently it was part of a larger comic called "Quest for Dream Lost", which sort of puts the weird events of the tale into context. Regardless, it's an Eastman/Laird Joint and there's nothing in it that really puts it outside the Mirage universe, though I don't own a copy of Quest for Dreams Lost so I dunno if all the artifacts that the various indie comics characters recovered in the book were returned to the moving van they fell out of or not. Kinda wonder if I should include their Miami Mice cameo in the timeline, now. That one was also penciled by Eastman and Laird (at least the Turtles were; the Miami Mice were done by Mike Bode and Cerebus was all Dave Sim). There's no explanation in that story as to how the Turtles got to the Miami Mice unvierse, outside of Cerebus making a passing comment about a "crossover spell", though it only seems to be affecting him and not the Turtles. I'll hold off on that one for now.

01-08-2010, 01:05 PM	#218
DrSpengler Foot Elite Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 4,830	In regards to "The Mortal Shell" in Tales #53, I didn't include it because Berger goes out of his way in the introduction to assure the reader that it is "non-canon". It was written from the getgo with the understanding that it was not to be a part of continuity, even if there's nothing contradictory within the story itself. Stuff like Image Vol. 3 and much of the Vol. 1 "guest era" stuff were initially conceived as canon only to be retconned out after the fact. "The Mortal Shell" was never intended to be canon, hence its non-inclusion to the timeline. As for "A Christmas Carol" and "Ghosts of Christmas Past", I'd still like to keep them together. The two stories compliment one-another very nicely and tell a pretty complete narrative once they segue into each other. "A Christmas Carol" doesn't necessarily have to be placed before "Ghosts of Christmas Past", but it works very well there. Just as "15 Years Later" doesn't have to be placed within TMNT #1, but works well with the narrative if it is. I'd like to keep them together, even if "A Christmas Carol" was written before the character of Shadow was conceived, as there's nothing in-story to contradict its placement there and it compliments the narrative of another short quite nicely. And you're right about "The Unmentionables" needing to be moved. I wasn't sure if it should go backward to be closer to the Winter they were exiled, or forward to be closer to the Winter where they returned. I decided to move it backward for now. Also put "Casey Jones, Private Eye" before "The Unmentionables" instead of after it, since Casey's daydreaming about being a sleuth is better suited to forshadowing the events of "The Unmentionables".

01-08-2010, 01:23 PM	#219
ToTheNines [sic] Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 15,098	Cool, that all works. But speaking of Beger making a point... I just got Tales 48 yesterday, and in the begining I'm pretty sure he said that they story takes place during Volume 2, was he just plain wrong on this one?