Pro Wrestling Discussion

[BubblyShell22]

Yes, but it was still funny.

[The Stryker]

Was it?

I never found saying 'Too Sweet' over and over to be hilarious.

[TheCanadiandrome]

Or 4-life either, still I likes the NWO allot

[The Stryker]

I like the concept a lot and appreciate it's historical significance but watching some of that stuff is kinda hard to do. Especially once there were like 50 members in the group.

[BubblyShell22]

I always found it odd that many of the members of the NWO didn't really do much and just stood in the background. Sometimes they'd wrestle, but very rarely. I never hated the NWO and thought it was good for what it was until Vince tried to bring it back. Then it failed miserably.

And "Too Sweet" isn't so bad. I used to say it all the time. My bro and I would joke around and say those catchphrases to each other.

[The Stryker]

Originally Posted by BubblyShell22

I always found it odd that many of the members of the NWO didn't really do much and just stood in the background. Sometimes they'd wrestle, but very rarely. I never hated the NWO and thought it was good for what it was until Vince tried to bring it back. Then it failed miserably.

And "Too Sweet" isn't so bad. I used to say it all the time. My bro and I would joke around and say those catchphrases to each other.

The nWo brand had already lost all credibility waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before Vince got his hands on it. The Wolfpac was dumb, Red/White was dumber. How about nWo 2000? Oh lord.

I felt like WWE's version did OK until Mania where everybody realized that Hogan was back home and how awesome that was. Then the bottom fell out, Hall did what he does. Perfect storm.

[XERO]

I still think the Fingerpoke of Doom incident had a lot to do with the nWo's original downfall, as well.

[BubblyShell22]

Yes, I totally agree there. But what I like about The Shield is that they have just three members and they still do more damage despite that. I really hope The Shield doesn't go the route of recruiting more members and stays the way that they are because it works for them.

[XERO]

Only difference between nWo and the Shield is that the nWo were started by 3 established wrestlers at the time, whereas Shield are mostly newcomers with polished indy resumes.

[BubblyShell22]

Sure, but I think that had the NWO stayed with only a certain number of members, it may have worked out. There were a lot of members in there who barely wrestled or did anything other than join in on attacks. That's what I was getting at.

[XERO]

lol The nWo were like Katamari. Everyone they rolled over, became a part of them.

[The Stryker]

All of the splintered nWo factions started the downfall. Oversaturation like crazy.

Especially with a group like The Flock on the same show. Too many groups with useless flunkeys and only one dude worth anything.

[Leo656]

I'm a huge nWo apologist but in hindsight it went on too long, too many people got involved and a lot of feuds or ideas that could have gone further had to be pushed aside or watered-down because guys got sick of being beat-down fodder every week and insisted they join the nWo instead. At first it was fine; they presented it as selective membership (they actually rejected several people like The Nasty Boys, along with Bubba and Beefcake/Disciple the first time they tried to join), and most of the new recruits became a vital part of nWo Japan, which arguably became a bigger entity than the "main" group insofar as the global wrestling scene. I loved how the nWo had become a worldwide entity; it gave the angle serious credibility. The biggest stars in the business, all independently wealthy to start with, with a combined list of Titles too numerous to count, pooling their resources and conspiring with corrupt officials working within the largest multimedia corporation on Earth in order to almost literally "take over" the entire wrestling business, attacking it from within on two separate continents. It was glorious, at first. No group will ever reach those heights again, and it can't; the business is too exposed, for one, and secondly it's already been done, so anything would seem like a rehash.

Eventually, though, it got weak once they started cramming in guys like Stevie Ray and Konnan, who none of the WCW fans ever gave a sh*t about anyways. Originally even the weaker members of the group (like Bubba and Wall Street) had been very, very recognizable stars before they joined. Once they started sticking a shirt on anyone who had no heat, it was too far. Even Bagwell was a stretch to join, but the storyline basically excused it by saying he flat-out did it to avoid any more beatdowns from them, so he was their first "stooge", and that made sense. Eventually it was almost all stooges and a few stars.

Ultimately, they never followed through on the original plan, or they followed through way too late, and that ruined it. It's fairly obvious watching the first 6 months of Nitro after the nWo formed, the plan was always for Hogan to drop the belt to Sting after about one year and then Nash was going to usurp control of the group, turning Hogan face again so he and Sting could team against them to finish the angle. They *did* do all of that, but the Starrcade finish was screwy and Sting's crowd pops fizzled quickly once his ring work showed a lot of rust, so the company didn't have faith in him as the top guy anymore, and the nWo angle was a proven money-maker at that point. They saw that if they kept it going another year, they could eventually have Goldberg (whose rise was unforseen) "kill" the group, but by then everyone was making too much money to want to kill the golden goose. Thus the stupid split into two factions; the groundwork was always there, Hall Nash and Syxx had always called themselves the "Wolfpac" from the beginning, so perhaps a re-branding with the red colors was always the plan, but I'm sure that like everything else with the angle, the end result only resembled the old plan by accident. It was hard for me to accept people who had spent a year of their careers fighting the nWo, like Sting, Luger, and DDP, suddenly allying with them because they wore different shirts and hated Hogan (who never actually said anything that wasn't true in his heel turn speech or the hundreds since, thus in my mind was never "really" the bad guy, as opposed to Nash and Hall who were always just pricks for the hell of it). By the time they re-established Nash as a manipulative lunatic to end the group for good (basically he got the Title and decided he was too good for the rest of them anymore, so they all just kinda stopped hanging out; the group never really "broke up") and had Hogan take his proper red-and-yellow babyface role against him, it was so far too late and so confusing that the impact was simply not there for any of it. The plan was always to have the nWo angle end with Hogan vs. Nash headlining a major PPV; it *could* have been a classic, instead of being the main event of a pretty lackluster "Road Wild" PPV.

If they'd held firm to the original plan and ended it after a year, it would have worked better. The extra year and a half was why some people forget how awesome the original concept and execution was. And I know I'm the only one, but I loved Bischoff's heel character. I know everyone gives credit to Vince for the "evil boss" gimmick, but to me Bischoff not only did it first, but better. And he's actually a pretty nice guy; even people he's supposed to have major heat with, like Jericho, say he's a really great guy when he's not your boss. But he was so good at being an obnoxious character, added in with how much of what he said and did was based on reality, that people started to legitimately hate him. I thought it was genius, though. nWo Nitro was one thing, but the "nWo Nightcap" Jay Leno rip-off show was a bit much. I'd take any excuse to have Liz and her legs on TV for 20 minutes, though, even if the cost was Bischoff laughing uproariously at his own (stolen) jokes.

It seems like the Aces & Eights are coming to an end soon, which would be for the best. It's a pretty blatant "homage" to the nWo, and for my money it's gone pretty well, but if they keep it going much longer they'll repeat the same mistakes. Super-groups that go longer than a year tends to betray a lack of new ideas on the part of creative, generally. I'm fine with the concept coming up every couple years, that's the biz, but sometimes they just repeat the entire thing, even what *didn't* work, which is puzzling.

A lot of me and my boys still do the nWo sign "finger kiss", though, not gonna lie.

[TheCanadiandrome]

Originally Posted by The Stryker

The nWo brand had already lost all credibility waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before Vince got his hands on it. The Wolfpac was dumb, Red/White was dumber. How about nWo 2000? Oh lord.

I felt like WWE's version did OK until Mania where everybody realized that Hogan was back home and how awesome that was. Then the bottom fell out, Hall did what he does. Perfect storm.

Agreed

Originally Posted by XERO

I still think the Fingerpoke of Doom incident had a lot to do with the nWo's original downfall, as well.

Oh c'mon that was classic

Originally Posted by XERO

lol The nWo were like Katamari. Everyone they rolled over, became a part of them.

Rofl

Originally Posted by The Stryker

All of the splintered nWo factions started the downfall. Oversaturation like crazy.

Especially with a group like The Flock on the same show. Too many groups with useless flunkeys and only one dude worth anything.

That is true

[BubblyShell22]

Yeah, I agree that the split in factions was a bit much. But then again, it was like they were establishing that there was the "bad NWO" (black and white) and a "good NWO" (red and black). Still, I agree it was a bit much to do, though I always thought the Wolfpac red and black was cool. And, to be fair, DDP never did join them. He was going to before Rodman and Hogan attacked him, and by the time he came back, he never really joined them. He may have allied with them at times, but he was never a true member.

Pretty good NOC from what I read. I didn't think Bryan would win though.

[Leo656]

Having a "good" nWo completely erased the point, though, the point being, "This is a group of selfish dicks who want to make the entire world revolve around them and only them." If anything, Hogan was the "sympathetic" one because even though he was the leader and generally pretty uncouth, his motives were mainly the fact that he was unappreciated by the wrestling fans, which pushed him into turning heel. Hall and Nash were far more angry, far more violent, and far more evil in general, and were the ones who "influenced" Hogan in the storylines, convincing him to turn bad in the first place. But because Hall and Nash were "cool", when the nWo split in half they were able to basically make Hogan the patsy and convince the fans he was always really the bad guy; it also didn't hurt that "their" nWo took all the good members and added Sting and Luger. I preferred nWo Hollywood, because the entire purpose of the nWo was violence and destruction and chaos, not catering to the fans and becoming the main good guys of WCW, and anyone who had followed the angles knew Nash's motives in being a good guy were never sincere to begin with. He eventually showed his true colors when they turned on Goldberg and the core group got back together. I hated that there was a face nWo because why should a group that was ostensibly about destroying and taking over WCW ever be supported by WCW and the fans? It made no sense at all.

What I did love, was that Nash's character was always consistent in WCW. Every single time he turned face, it was always a ruse to consolidate more power and get closer to the World Title; he was never a real "good guy". Eventually the fans caught on and rightfully cheered Hogan over him when they feuded, but that year in between kind of killed the heat.

DDP never joined the 'Pac because his character was a lone wolf type, but he was definitely an ally. Which made sense since he had so much history with Nash and Hall from '91-'93 in The Diamond Exchange, but as faces there was no need for the "lone wolf" to join any "pac". Also, and possibly more importantly, DDP shirts were selling like #3 behind nWo red and nWo white shirts, and he and the company likely did not want to sacrifice any potential income by having him trade his many cool shirts for nWo Wolfpac shirts.

Sting and Luger actually becoming members was bad enough, as they teamed up with he exact same guys who had been beating them senseless and worse for an entire year and became blood allies with them, all because they changed their shirts and said Hogan was a jerk. Horrible, horrible character motivation. Not to mention Sting always looks like a jack-o-lantern with red face paint. I always call him "The Great Pumpkin" when he does it.

[BubblyShell22]

Yes, exactly. I really think the idea of having a face NWO was stupid to say the least and really diminished what it was supposed to stand for, but at the time, I thought the red and black was cool. I was young back then, but if I were to watch it now as I'm older, I would definitely not like it at all.

Yep, Nash was pretty consistent in his character, and he did a good job of fooling everyone.

I liked DDP's character, but then again, I've always been a DDP fan since I first started watching in February of '97. I always liked his shirts and always wanted one, but sadly, I never got one. I do have a DDP shirt with his picture on it, but nothing from WCW itself. And that shirt is all worn out because I mainly used it for pajamas because it was so big on me.

I liked it when Sting was on his own and when he joined the NWO for that brief bit before he fought Hogan at Starrcade. I thought his motive there was pretty damn cool at that time. I didn't mind the face paint so much, but yeah, it did look weird now that I think back on it.

[BubblyShell22]

Wow. Pretty interesting RAW last night. Talk about a power trip! They pretty much abused everyone there from the ref, to Dusty Rhodes, to The Miz. I loved all of it though and really like where this is going. I thought for sure they'd give the title back to Orton, but I'm glad they didn't. So, I wonder what they're going to do with the title now that it's being held like that. I've heard of a title being vacated but not of one being held in obeyance or whatever it was Trips said. Still, pretty interesting how the night went.

[TheCanadiandrome]

It's held up or in "Abeyance". And I'm wondering if Vince has maybe something to do with how things are playin out

[BubblyShell22]

Ah, so that's what it's called. It sounded like he said "obeyance" to me, but it's still weird. Yeah, Vince may be pulling the strings on all of this, but I think a lot of it is also Trips wanting to seek power. Or, maybe he's going along with it so he can oust Vince? That would be pretty cool. Either way, this storyline is awesome.